Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Wouldnt Talents with technomancy pop up before full blown Wizards given Talents are both more common and have a tendency to more delicate, specialised workings.
I guess a lot of that depends on how the Talent manifests? I mean, a Talent for weather manipulation isn't exactly subtle, so it's probably hard to miss when your mood causes it to show in July or something equally dramatic.

A Talent for Technomancy might not even be recognized for anything supernatural, manifesting instead as an almost uncanny skill diagnosing mechanical issues in machinery, debugging code, etc. If you don't realize you're doing something magical, you might never work to develop the more blatantly supernatural aspects of the Talent, like potentially controlling technology directly with your mind, delving into cyberspace with your soul, etc. I don't know anything about WoD Technomancy, though, so this could just be baseless supposition.

And for his roar to be a traditional dialup modem?
Maybe accompanied by a hail of razor sharp free AOL access CDs?

I used to get so many of those things in the mail that I would save them to use when I wanted to throw something at my little brother.
 
I think we need something that actually get into it with her concerns and ours like she's an adult instead of a hapless idiot we need to lead around by the nose.
I will repeat Murphy's experiments written by Uju, and I agree with his conclusions:

This is not the first murderer that Lt Murphy has let walk free or covered up for due to expedience, and she knows it.

She explicitly knew about Bianca's Red Court branch in Storm Front, and stayed the fuck away from it. The rogue FBI team in Fool Moon who were murdering people in wolf form, she let a cover story obscure the depths of their misdeeds and helped Dresden destroy the hexenwulf belts.

In Blood Rites, she first helped Dresden assault a Black Court nest in the company of Kinkaid and McCoy, then was witness to Papa Raith murdering Trixie Vixen and tossing the body into the Raith Deeps, and she let that go.
Harry explicitly told her in Proven Guilty about the White Council executing warlocks in Chicago.

And that doesnt count the trip to Arctis Tor.

Im thinking she should know better but Im getting the feeling she's having trouble taking some things on faith from 17-year old Molly Carpenter that she would take from Harry Dresden; unlike Harry, she hasnt stared the USS Godkiller in the soul, doesnt have any idea of what it was.

Nor does she really have a frame of reference for how people in the know treat Molly or Lydia, though if she reflects on it she'll probably have questions about the willingness of a mercenary company to hire out a short platoon to a teenager at literally minutes notice. Maybe she thinks its because of Michael being Molly's dad?

Time to get stranger.

An adult would know at the very least to put their trust in people who they know have knowledge in a specific field (supernatural monsters), especially if they are also friends/allies who have fought together for many years, just as they trust them to know the best way forward. by her area of expertise (American humane law/Chicago police). If they aren't giving us as many questions, why should she? Would she know better than them in this particular case involving the supernatural?

I too think we just need to break the label of "Michael's ignorant child I saved from the Winter who has some power" (which in my opinion is the problem since if it was Harry or Michael himself doing this she wouldn't say anything) that she has to us and I think Porter's suggestion will help. Then, when she realizes that, we can work together as two adult allies who seek to improve the city.
 
If we do any of the YouTube ideas we can put some cyber devils in the servers to make it so people with magic are more likely to find our videos and those without are less likely. The algorithm will serve us.
 
Sad thing about soul fire in Dresdens case in canon he says he's relatively bad at it. Mostly cause soul fire is good with making stuff and well that's not what Harry's built for soul fire would actually be decently good for better illusions or even better actual crafting stuff.
 
An adult would know at the very least to put their trust in people who they know have knowledge in a specific field (supernatural monsters), especially if they are also friends/allies who have fought together for many years, just as they trust them to know the best way forward. by her area of expertise (American humane law/Chicago police). If they aren't giving us as many questions, why should she? Would she know better than them in this particular case involving the supernatural?
I think part of the issue is the difference between these cases and those ones.

Most of the prior murders she had to let go basically couldn't be followed up on. Either because they couldn't bring the force to bear to make it stick, because they couldn't prove it in a court of law or dispense justice out of sight from the mundane world*, or because of some other blocker.

As far as she knows we beat the shit out of every monster we fought and could have done something about them, but let most of them get away anyway.

We didn't tell her anything about Eiko, the odds we were weighing in that fight, or why we did any of what we did there.

It's probably sticking in her craw in part because this looked like one of the few good clean wins she'd have ever seen in this business that we fumbled at the finish line.

* If she'd even want to anyway
If we do any of the YouTube ideas we can put some cyber devils in the servers to make it so people with magic are more likely to find our videos and those without are less likely. The algorithm will serve us.
There isn't some big glowing box labeled "Youtube" in Google's basement.

Big services like that have whole interconnect networks of servers covering different regions that get spun up and down as needed.

Taking that over would be a little more complicated than making a few trips to some random data centers.
 
Hijacked journals. Those existed way before internet. And I know that books can be hijacked. It's not that hard to do. You simply set up parallel publishing, or, if you are interested in altering contents, you enter the publication chain. You have a very rose-tinted view of publishing process. If anything, online material is harder to hijack for a prolonged perido of time, because it's easier to set up systems monitoring for said hijacking.
My friend, your citation proves my point.
Every example there is Internet fraud, achieved by setting up a website for a journal without a robust electronic presence and soliciting payments from people seeking to publish manuscripts.

Journal publishing =/= Book publishing. Book authors expect to be paid, not to pay. Books are published in print runs of a given number(hundreds to tens of thousands) at a time, and checked over before being dispatched.The author gets copies to look over, both proofs to confirm before printing and complimentary copies after printing.

There's a lot more due dilligence involved, and less opportunity for post-facto alterations.

This isnt like internet stuff, where the contents of publishing can be altered as soon as someone gets access to your server without you noticing, and where major sites suffer system breaches without noticing for weeks to years.
Not at all comparable afaik.
Suffice to say that if you can't do mass causality events with commonly available electronics and chemicals. you are just not curious enough.
Mass casualty events are easy in principle, harder in execution; Aum Shinrikyo homebrewed double digit liters of sarin but were unable to kill more than twenty or thirty people in sepearate attacks.

However.
Killing double digits on the one hand, and five digits of people on the other hand may both be mass casualty events, but they are nothing alike in impact.

Lack of knowledge of the Laws doesn't stop you from breaking them, as Molly demonstrated. If, when rolling 15+ successes, we can't impress the need to follow sa
Most people dont awaken with a gift for mind magic. Most people dont break the Laws.
Many people who do break the Laws dont get caught.
And Molly explicitly had the idea of using mind magic planted in her head by a "lady" who subsequently vanished.

15+ successes. If we can't get our message out in a safe-ish way, that would be strange.
Learning a knowledge/skill does not impart ethics. Or caution.

Why would you assume that a person with a Derangement or a mental illness of some sort would interpret things like a rational person? This is not a white room where we get to act unimpeded. This is a setting where other factions have agency. Where NPCs have agency. And we would be providing information, not indoctrination.

don't need broadband. You need an internet connection (dial-up would do), and an interest in watching / listening to the lessons.
You want to watch video lectures, you absolutely need broadband. That I can assure you.

I used dialup in the 1990s, with the familiar screeching as the modem would attempt to connect to the ISP.
When you had to share internet with the phone service, hard drive capacity was measured in gigabytes, and CDS were useful for storing data.

Its not a coincidence that Youtube was set up in 2005 and acquired by Google in 2006.
Or that Spotify was set up in 2006.
Not in the 1990s, but when broadband connectivity was beginning to get traction.
Mass ignorance benefits monsters more. And causes more casualties than increased awareness would.
Until your first major Outsider-involved incursion happens, and then you get to compare a century of drips to a sudden tsunami.
Or people try to capture the Little Folk as collectors items/exotic pets until they actively begin to react with hostility.
And the Fae Courts with them.

If I was to make an analogy, it would be along the lines of epidemics being so long ago that people are complaining about vaccine reactions because they have no bone deep understanding of what the disease would entail.


Note that at least one of the orthodox dharmas makes it a religious duty for their elders to stay up to date with technology, including computers. They also have a ritual to learn those skills from the souls of people (ideally the worst sinners) they've eat
^^^

Ghost Hunting Morons would be less likely to occour if they knew more about ghosts though.
If ghosts were a generally well-known phenomenon, people would treat them with more respect.
I dont believe that.
We can barely get large sections of the population to empathize with other people today.
We literally had people refusing to take Covid precautions while others were dying, even their loved ones.

Lots of governments, agencies and NGOs who would try to exploit it for an edge against enemies, not to mention individuals.

How many people would try to interrogate ghosts for the whereabouts of inheritances or money.
How many governments would want to interrogate the ghosts of dead enemies. Journalists and authors.
Teenagers on a dare, and influencers chasing clout, or tourists chasing a thrill.

The reality of climate change has not deterred corporations who see shortterm benefit from making things worse.
The death of species has not deterred poachers and overfishers and overuse of groundwater.
I dont see any way the prospect of consequences to other people would deter people doing what they want.

Until there's a major reaction. Too many people refuse to learn until they are burned.
The Idea that ignorance somehow protects people in DF is laughable, any individual with enough basic magical talent to actually use magical instruction is already a target. All giving them information does is help them avoid some of the most straightforward problems, like going insane from using black magic.

And ignorance doesn't in anyway help all the non-magical people that various monsters murder on a regular basis either. Further most of the monsters are vulnerable to regular humans actively trying to kill them, if the knowledge is available a lot of nasties are going to have serious problems.
1)*points at the Oblivion War*
My friend, the very fact that the Oblivion War has been ongoing for at least five thousand years, and victories are measured in getting Humanity to forget about a variety of Old Gods and their agents, proves this assertion.

Knowledge in the Dresdenverse does not necessarily confer safety.
And there are specific threats that target you if they become aware that you are aware of them. Thats literally why the Native Americans decline to speak of the naagloshii in the series.


2)How many people do you think monsters murder?
Do you have a ballpark figure? How does it compare to mundane human activity like, say, road traffic accidents?
Or public health issues, like smog and pollution in the West or malaria in Africa?

Im not defending supernatural homicides, but its worth keeping the threat in perspective.

Knowing about computers and having the kind of institutional and logistical capabilities to manipulate the Internet is vastly vastly different things. We are young and our cyberdevils aren't trapped in a hell to interact with the Internet. We can Corner the Internet before they have any chance of establishing their own control and then just obliterate any effort that they try to take control.

We could most likely figure out some kind of cyber magic that wards the entire Internet even. A GREAT WORKING that would signal the birth of a new age and a realm controlled only by the humanity(and us). Hell we can get the crafting perks and awaken a major god of the Internet. Imagine the power such a being would have, imagine how powerful such a ally will be and imagine how powerful it will grow. We could singlehandedly give every person with a cellphone access to a god, imagine the thaumturgy of a hundred million people running reality reinforcing programs, servers that run dream realms of nevernever for human use. We could win everything forever for humanity.

Imagine summoning reaper drone spirits to hunt vampires or recreating the reality reinforcing commerce of Exalted but through digital means. Optic cable ritual circles that can bind and kill gods.
I will suggest you look at the Soul Treatments available to Greater Akuma.
The Yama King Mikaboshi in particular has had cyberware since at least the 1980s. We are nowhere near the biggest fish in this pool, nor are we the first. We didnt invent institutions or logistics as a concept.

I mean, we summon cyberdevils from the Wicked City.
Do you think there arent bigger, badder technology spirits around, or older spirits who've adopted some tech as an aspect of their portfolio? Just look at Porter, who predates Chicago by a lot, and yet loves trains.

This is a WoD cross. Technology spirits are a thing in the WoD setting.
Isabella's Uncle Leinth recognized the origin of our cyberdevils when we summoned them.
Dont make the assumption we are the first, or the only person who recognizes their potential. That way lies ruination.
But evidently there is no such tradition in Canon. Bob is a knowledge spirit and he would have mentioned if there was mass Internet warfare. Especially as Harry made paranet and that seems to be first of its kind.

Also I now think we should buy or co opt Microsoft and embed magical code into the next Windows that we use excellence to design. Each person using the new window will be like a prayer wheels, generating power for our god of the Internet while they do their work, each good search a cry for intercession each picture posted a dedication to a god.
1)Bob does not know everything, and until he went to live with Butters, he had no interest in the Internet.

2)Thats as foolhardy as putting in backdoors to software apps and expecting that noone else will find or use them.
Besides, thats not how magic or prayer works in the Dresdenverse.
 
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If we do any of the YouTube ideas we can put some cyber devils in the servers to make it so people with magic are more likely to find our videos and those without are less likely. The algorithm will serve us.
You dont understand the scale of the problem.
There is no official data on how many servers are in Google data centers, but Gartner estimated in a July 2016 report that Google at the time had 2.5 million servers. This number is changing as the company expands capacity and refreshes its hardware.[1]
Even now in 2006, I would bet on at least five to six figure numbers of servers.

EDIT

[X] Accept Porter's sugestion, at the very least he should be able to get detective Murphy off her interogation game
 
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It's worth noting here that one of Murphy's first on screen supernatural encounters* is a side story where she gets into it with Harry and literal troll under a bridge that had been eating children.

That particular troll was a chump, but as a species they're basically Winter's space marines. Attacking one with a pistol and baton went about as well as you'd expect.

She is very familiar with the idea that you can't prosecute the spooky easily. I don't think that showing her more spooky will necessarily help us here, especially since it's an obvious distraction.

I think we need something that actually get into it with her concerns and ours like she's an adult instead of a hapless idiot we need to lead around by the nose.

* In universe timeline wise, not publication order.

It's specifically the fey who call it this, I don't think anyone else ever uses the term.
I still think hearing Murphy's answer to the riddle will at least tell Molly something about her, and about how to proceed.

I know we won't stunlock her with this, but it might be a step further towards understanding her enough to have a better idea on what to do.
Because so far most of our arguments with Murphy seem to have gone in the wrong direction, either because they were bad arguments in regards to her, or because she can't take a kid as seriously as she should take an Exalted.

One of those issues we can fix by knowing more about her, the other we can at least soften up by having a stone/train Dragon talk for us.
My friend, the very fact that the Oblivion War has been ongoing for at least five thousand years, and victories are measured in getting Humanity to forget about a variety of Old Gods and their agents, proves this assertion.
Just thinking about this, I wonder if we get a visit from Kincaid or a Venator soon.

Because of that thing where we wrote the name of a Neverborn on the ground and later researched it more.

It's propably not technically one of the Old Gods that the Archive cares about, but it's definitly a Name that most pro-human forces would consider to be better forgotten and a 17-year-old with cosmic powers saying "I can handle it though" is not the most convincing thing.
 
Wouldnt Talents with technomancy pop up before full blown Wizards given Talents are both more common and have a tendency to more delicate, specialised workings.

Generally speaking minor talents have to be trained by someone, which means you need a path to train them, as Maria was in Weather work for instance. While talents that simply express spontaneously exist, they tend to be for broad categories which are in some way intuitive to the user and since for right now the general nature of the tech-bane is against magic that can work with micro-chips and software such talents are very unlikely to show up. The tech needs to be normalized, it has to no longer be thought of as magic before it can be twined with actual magic.
 
My friend, your citation proves my point.
Every example there is Internet fraud, achieved by setting up a website for a journal without a robust electronic presence and soliciting payments from people seeking to publish manuscripts.

Journal publishing =/= Book publishing. Book authors expect to be paid, not to pay. Books are published in print runs of a given number(hundreds to tens of thousands) at a time, and checked over before being dispatched.The author gets copies to look over, both proofs to confirm before printing and complimentary copies after printing.

There's a lot more due dilligence involved, and less opportunity for post-facto alterations.

This isnt like internet stuff, where the contents of publishing can be altered as soon as someone gets access to your server without you noticing, and where major sites suffer system breaches without noticing for weeks to years.
Not at all comparable afaik.

Mass casualty events are easy in principle, harder in execution; Aum Shinrikyo homebrewed double digit liters of sarin but were unable to kill more than twenty or thirty people in sepearate attacks.

However.
Killing double digits on the one hand, and five digits of people on the other hand may both be mass casualty events, but they are nothing alike in impact.


Most people dont awaken with a gift for mind magic. Most people dont break the Laws.
Many people who do break the Laws dont get caught.
And Molly explicitly had the idea of using mind magic planted in her head by a "lady" who subsequently vanished.


Learning a knowledge/skill does not impart ethics. Or caution.

Why would you assume that a person with a Derangement or a mental illness of some sort would interpret things like a rational person? This is not a white room where we get to act unimpeded. This is a setting where other factions have agency. Where NPCs have agency. And we would be providing information, not indoctrination.


You want to watch video lectures, you absolutely need broadband. That I can assure you.

I used dialup in the 1990s, with the familiar screeching as the modem would attempt to connect to the ISP.
When you had to share internet with the phone service, hard drive capacity was measured in gigabytes, and CDS were useful for storing data.

Its not a coincidence that Youtube was set up in 2005 and acquired by Google in 2006.
Or that Spotify was set up in 2006.
Not in the 1990s, but when broadband connectivity was beginning to get traction.

Until your first major Outsider-involved incursion happens, and then you get to compare a century of drips to a sudden tsunami.
Or people try to capture the Little Folk as collectors items/exotic pets until they actively begin to react with hostility.
And the Fae Courts with them.

If I was to make an analogy, it would be along the lines of epidemics being so long ago that people are complaining about vaccine reactions because they have no bone deep understanding of what the disease would entail.



^^^


I dont believe that.
We can barely get large sections of the population to empathize with other people today.
We literally had people refusing to take Covid precautions while others were dying, even their loved ones.

Lots of governments, agencies and NGOs who would try to exploit it for an edge against enemies, not to mention individuals.

How many people would try to interrogate ghosts for the whereabouts of inheritances or money.
How many governments would want to interrogate the ghosts of dead enemies. Journalists and authors.
Teenagers on a dare, and influencers chasing clout, or tourists chasing a thrill.

The reality of climate change has not deterred corporations who see shortterm benefit from making things worse.
The death of species has not deterred poachers and overfishers and overuse of groundwater.
I dont see any way the prospect of consequences to other people would deter people doing what they want.

Until there's a major reaction. Too many people refuse to learn until they are burned.

1)*points at the Oblivion War*
My friend, the very fact that the Oblivion War has been ongoing for at least five thousand years, and victories are measured in getting Humanity to forget about a variety of Old Gods and their agents, proves this assertion.

Knowledge in the Dresdenverse does not necessarily confer safety.
And there are specific threats that target you if they become aware that you are aware of them. Thats literally why the Native Americans decline to speak of the naagloshii in the series.


2)How many people do you think monsters murder?
Do you have a ballpark figure? How does it compare to mundane human activity like, say, road traffic accidents?
Or public health issues, like smog and pollution in the West or malaria in Africa?

Im not defending supernatural homicides, but its worth keeping the threat in perspective.


I will suggest you look at the Soul Treatments available to Greater Akuma.
The Yama King Mikaboshi in particular has had cyberware since at least the 1980s. We are nowhere near the biggest fish in this pool, nor are we the first. We didnt invent institutions or logistics as a concept.

I mean, we summon cyberdevils from the Wicked City.
Do you think there arent bigger, badder technology spirits around, or older spirits who've adopted some tech as an aspect of their portfolio? Just look at Porter, who predates Chicago by a lot, and yet loves trains.

This is a WoD cross. Technology spirits are a thing in the WoD setting.
Isabella's Uncle Leinth recognized the origin of our cyberdevils when we summoned them.
Dont make the assumption we are the first, or the only person who recognizes their potential. That way lies ruination.

1)Bob does not know everything, and until he went to live with Butters, he had no interest in the Internet.

2)Thats as foolhardy as putting in backdoors to software apps and expecting that noone else will find or use them.
Besides, thats not how magic or prayer works in the Dresdenverse.
yeah in the subject of information having power knowledge of certain beings makes it in some vague ways easier for them to enter into reality. Also in canon some outsider stuff is explicitly unkillable and feed on psychic energies especially fear and knowledge of them. The more those two are removed from the world the less they can do. Curious myself what dp will change about that though.

Edit: Sometimes I wish we were a sidereal as I know they have information manipulation bullshit. Do we? Cause we can't just remove lovecraft from the history books as that'd probably be a good thing to do in universe.
 
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There isn't some big glowing box labeled "Youtube" in Google's basement.

Big services like that have whole interconnect networks of servers covering different regions that get spun up and down as needed.

Taking that over would be a little more complicated than making a few trips to some random data centers.
Once we build ourselves a few backdoors into the network our network should be able to handle the rest.
 
Butcher doesnt call it ferromancy.
Some of Butcher's supernatural characters refer to mortal technology as ferromancy, referencing the heavy use of iron and its products. Subtle but hard difference.
He does refer to mortal technology as ferromancy:
(and shouldn't the black court be the most numerous? in blood rites, ebenezer mentioned after a few weeks, there would be dozens or even hundreds of vamps, so y don't the black court vamps just settle down in africa or india and start biting away?)
Nukes. :)
You get all /that/ assertive, and you risk stirring mortals into awareness. And we monkeys are /dangerous/ in large groups, especially with all our ferromancy (technology).
There's also a psychological issue on behalf of the vampires. Bear in mind that evolution made a pretty brutal selection among the Black Court. The ones who survived and prospered were those who avoided notice, respected the potential danger mortals represented, and who were generally quick to leave town rather than charge into a confrontation.
In any personal-scale conflict, a mature BC vamp is gonna tear holes through any mortal or White Court vampire. But the mortals started cheating, and doing all their fighting in angry mobs, and creating weapons that were ridiculously overpowered for the job of killing one another which could actually inconvenience, wound, or even kill a BC vamp. Murphy did all right in that BC nest, because she had allies, appropriate weapons and (most importantly) knowledge and a plan.

Firstly, the period of ascendancy of vacuum tubes was pretty short; three or four decades.
You forget that until LCDs started to dominate, all TVs were vacuum tube based technology. The period of vacuum tube widespread use (outside of laboratories and everywhere you need a particle accelerator for) was... Well, it's not over yet - they have a large use in radio and TV stations, and, again in particle accelerators. Here, have a paper about it, with a nifty diagram of solid state vs. vacuum tube.
For the second, the first third of the twentieth century was a pretty harrowing time demographically. WW1 happened and killed maybe 20 million people. The Spanish flu infected roughly a third of the world's population at the end of WW1, and killed an estimated 50 million people globally. Then WW2 killed another 70 or 90 million in the 1940s.

Add the death toll and social disruption of the early Soviet Union's civil war and famine, and the Spanish Civil War.
And the Chinese civil war.
Not a great time to be a researcher trying to cross-apply mundane discoveries to magical principles.

Thirdly, in the supernatural world WW1 never ended.
The first half of the 20th century was one long extended series of magical wars against Kemmler and his allies.
Didnt end until they killed him for the final time in 1961.

Also worth noting that the human population in 1900 was ~1.5 billion.
Global education levels were abysmal, as was the penetration of electronics.
By 1960 it was 3 billion, and 4 billion by 1975.
While I dislike the notion of "war makes technology advance" (because it's blatantly wrong in many ways), if we take the time period from 1900 (roughly the year radio was invented) to 1954 (the year first transistor radio was released, and even that is a very limiting timeframe), that's two mortal generations, complete overhaul of life in a number of countries, an explosion of technology in a number of countries, and an increase in human population of 70% over 1900 baseline.

Worth noting that Molly didn't even think to try mind magic till someone deliberately planted the idea. A safety label warning you that shorting out your new laptop battery will make it explode is also an instruction manual for making DIY grenades.
If I recall correctly, Molly is far from the only case where laws are first broken unknowingly out of ignorance. I'll have to look for quotes, but it's very plausible to me.
Giving people a tiktoc with the laws in it is basically DARE for magic. It's not going to help much. It's also basically what the council already does.
In order: no it's not, yes it will, and no it doesn't, or at least not meaningfully at all.
The compromise here from my perspective is to use large number of cyber devils to automate case management for known talents.
The issue is not (only) known talents. It's new talents. And yes, widespread use of cyberdevils is going to be needed, obviously.

Obviously, the perfected version of what I am proposing is going to be complex and multi-layered. The way I envision this is:
1) A series of materials (video, sites, articles on said sites) designed to be easily found by those searching for magic on the internet. These materials would need to be coupled with cyberdevil watchers (monitoring who visits the sites, watches the videos, and such). These materials would have the following tasks (in no particular order of importance):
a) Allow young talents with no magical background of their own (like Elaine, who was an orphan talent) to learn of the magical world (or at least its existence) and their own gifts without having to blindly explore and experiment.
b) Allow us to scout those interested in magic, be they talented themselves or not, and connect with them
c) Prevent the target audience from becoming slaves, food or worse to fae and other factions through ignorance

The main target demographic of those videos would be young mortals who have the magical talent but don't have magical background - friends or family who are already magical and know what's going on. This might or might not include would-be ghouls and changelings, depending on how ambitious we get.

The list of material publicly available would obviously be needed to be worshopped, but as a general list, I think something like this is viable:
a) "Super puberty and you: growing hair in new and strange places, your voice breaking and wanting to eat your neighbor's dog". Essentially a general "do not panic, what you are going through is, if not common, not unique, here's what to do and how to behave so as not to completely ruin your life and lock yourself out of future options" video / papers / instruction lists. This would be aimed at anyone discovering that they are magical in a way that potentially disrupts their lives. Ghouls, whampires from outside the main families (based on those living underground, they obviously exist), changelings, wizards with strong enough gifts to start destroying electronics
b) "Dealing with the fae: don'ts and don'ts". This would be something aimed at preventing young talents from falling prey to many supernatural factions scouting them, from cults to, well, fae courts.
c) "Doding the SAN loss roles: what to avoid when practicing magic". Law introductions in a way that doesn't expose White council, and aims to instill intrinsic caution about breaking them.
d) Maybe, maybe, this is the arguable point, some very basic magic lessons, made in order to verify to the audience that we know what we talk about and they should seek us out. Essentially something to hook them up.

2) A series of materials, not publicly available, meant as education aids for out magically gifted minions. These would be meant to for our minions, and allies - those that have passed through at least some vetting, people we actually have contact with. Members of future Paranet analog, ideally monitored by cyberdevils. These materials are meant to lessen the need for tutoring others in magic. Molly's time is much too precious to spend it training anyone but our inner circle. We can't afford to spend action points on setting up and lecturing in Hogwarts, at least not yet (and when we'll be able to, we'll likely have our Kingdom, and will just send people there). Molly's training charms don't scale to even tens of people, much less hundreds or thousands of people. This media would bridge that gap.

Again, these would not be publicly available. They would be for those that reach out for us, get in contact, and are hooked up to the (hopefully) widespread net of practitioners in contact with each other. Policing that target audience would be done via cyberdevils, their peers among practitioners, and likely White Council at least in part.

Based on the fact that Molly should be rolling 15+ successes when recording educational videos on the subjects of occult or etiquette, i.e. 2 degrees of legendarity above what even the theoretical best mortal (charisma 5, occult 5) can achieve, I feel that the lessons being misinterpreted or perverted is a minimal risk. Molly should be hyper persuasive and super articulate in those. Achieving success is not an issue here.
 
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: Someone filled the internet with minor devils of alienation and spite and he's having them talking to new talents about magic...
The Merlin: Call the Blackstaff, Call the Senior council, tear down the inter-nets!
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: They are actually giving good advice.
The Merlin: Fuck!What's their angle? Is it a conspiracy? It's the fey isn't it? The White Court? TELL ME IT'S NOT OUTSIDERS!
:V

Seriously though if you are going to fill the internet with demons and target them at new talents you should expect someone to investigate you.
 
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My friend, your citation proves my point.
Every example there is Internet fraud, achieved by setting up a website for a journal without a robust electronic presence and soliciting payments from people seeking to publish manuscripts.

Journal publishing =/= Book publishing. Book authors expect to be paid, not to pay. Books are published in print runs of a given number(hundreds to tens of thousands) at a time, and checked over before being dispatched.The author gets copies to look over, both proofs to confirm before printing and complimentary copies after printing.

There's a lot more due dilligence involved, and less opportunity for post-facto alterations.

This isnt like internet stuff, where the contents of publishing can be altered as soon as someone gets access to your server without you noticing, and where major sites suffer system breaches without noticing for weeks to years.
Not at all comparable afaik.
I won't be able to convince you (I never am), but you are blatantly wrong here. Editing, and checking , and reviewing exist, but aren't protected against malicious action, or anywhere near as good as you think they are.
Mass casualty events are easy in principle, harder in execution; Aum Shinrikyo homebrewed double digit liters of sarin but were unable to kill more than twenty or thirty people in sepearate attacks.

However.
Killing double digits on the one hand, and five digits of people on the other hand may both be mass casualty events, but they are nothing alike in impact.
That's only if you want immediate effects. Giving tens of thousands of people untreatable cancer-like condition that will manifest 5 to 10 years from the unnoticed attack is a matter of a thousand dollars... And I'll shut up now.
Learning a knowledge/skill does not impart ethics. Or caution.

Why would you assume that a person with a Derangement or a mental illness of some sort would interpret things like a rational person? This is not a white room where we get to act unimpeded. This is a setting where other factions have agency. Where NPCs have agency. And we would be providing information, not indoctrination.
We would obviously be providing both information and indoctrination. Like any real education does.
Until your first major Outsider-involved incursion happens, and then you get to compare a century of drips to a sudden tsunami.
Or people try to capture the Little Folk as collectors items/exotic pets until they actively begin to react with hostility.
And the Fae Courts with them.

If I was to make an analogy, it would be along the lines of epidemics being so long ago that people are complaining about vaccine reactions because they have no bone deep understanding of what the disease would entail.
Except it's not like that. It's monsters feeding on humans, literally. Ignorance when being handed a live grenade while being dropped in a war zone is never a safer option.
 
If we don't have people investigating us within two months I feel like we are doing something wrong. But I would like for us to have our kingdom first. It leads to more respect.
 
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: Someone filled the internet with minor devils of alienation and spite and he's having them talking to new talents about magic...
The Merlin: Call the Blackstaff, Call the Senior council, tear down the inter-nets!
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: They are actually giving good advice.
The Merlin: Fuck!What's their angle? Is it a conspiracy? It's the fey isn't it? the White Court? TELL ME IT'S NOT OUTSIDERS!
:V

Seriously though if you are going to fill the internet with demons and target them at new talents you should expect someone to investigate you.
That's a given, yes. We'll need to deal with White Council anyway at some point. Ideally as allies.
 
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: Someone filled the internet with minor devils of alienation and spite and he's having them talking to new talents about magic...
The Merlin: Call the Blackstaff, Call the Senior council, tear down the inter-nets!
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: They are actually giving good advice.
The Merlin: Fuck!What's their angle? Is it a conspiracy? It's the fey isn't it? The White Court? TELL ME IT'S NOT OUTSIDERS!
:V

Seriously though if you are going to fill the internet with demons and target them at new talents you should expect someone to investigate you.
I know this is mostly because our little cyberdevils are extremely sus, and an Infernal Exaltation is practically designed to give off as many red flags as possible, but...

It's been a depressingly long time in this universe since someone with enough knowledge and power to make a real difference actually tried anything major to improve the Status Quo, instead of either preserving it, doing their own thing, actively trying to make things worse, or desperately trying to prevent things from all falling apart, hasn't it? Ah well, guess it's time to change that. After all, if there's one thing every Exaltation is made for, it's changing the Status Quo, one way or another.
 
[X] Accept Porter's sugestion, at the very least he should be able to get detective Murphy off her interogation game
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Apr 27, 2023 at 4:29 AM, finished with 81 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X] Accept Porter's sugestion, at the very least he should be able to get detective Murphy off her interogation game
    [X] Reject Porter's suggestion. His heart is in the right place, but you really do not think a stone dragon who thinks mortals like to be posed riddles is going to solve this issue
    [X] Perhaps a mix of things? First is a frank explanation that the supernatural might live in the USA, but they're not exactly part of the country. They're basically foreign nationals living in a parallel society. What they see as their rules is not often when we as 'mortals' see as our rules, because we're in two different worlds even when we're on the same soil.
    -[X] Then, if she's amendable, throw a set of riddles at her. Basically, supernatural beings violating the rules of man, and ask what she thinks the punishment would be? And no, calling the library of congress cannot be done for all of them.
 
If I recall correctly, Molly is far from the only case where laws are first broken unknowingly out of ignorance. I'll have to look for quotes, but it's very plausible to me.
She isn't, it it's worth noting that law breaking and risky magical adventures aren't primarily happening because of bored teens. Everyone we see do stuff like that has a reason they think is good. "Trust me bro, don't " isn't going to be terribly effective if they don't see another way forward.

In order: no it's not, yes it will, and no it doesn't, or at least not meaningfully at all.
Based on what? Giving people the ten cent tour of the laws is the same as saying "just say no to drugs". The laws of magic aren't exactly covering a whole bunch of stuff people will fall knot just fooling around. It's stuff like murder, mind control, and forcibly shape shifting other people.

People break it in ignorance of the backlash, but not just because their other plans fell through one weekend. Telling them it's dangerous and has consequences isn't a deterrent for the desperate.

The white council doesn't post videos online, but they do make a point of the laws in most interactions with minor talents. Go into a community of low key practitioners and they'll at least know what the laws are, and that's where most minor talents come from.
a) "Super puberty and you: growing hair in new and strange places, your voice breaking and wanting to eat your neighbor's dog". Essentially a general "do not panic, what you are going through is, if not common, not unique, here's what to do and how to behave so as not to completely ruin your life and lock yourself out of future options" video / papers / instruction lists. This would be aimed at anyone discovering that they are magical in a way that potentially disrupts their lives. Ghouls, whampires from outside the main families (based on those living underground, they obviously exist), changelings, wizards with strong enough gifts to start destroying electronics
b) "Dealing with the fae: don'ts and don'ts". This would be something aimed at preventing young talents from falling prey to many supernatural factions scouting them, from cults to, well, fae courts.
c) "Doding the SAN loss roles: what to avoid when practicing magic". Law introductions in a way that doesn't expose White council, and aims to instill intrinsic caution about breaking them.
d) Maybe, maybe, this is the arguable point, some very basic magic lessons, made in order to verify to the audience that we know what we talk about and they should seek us out. Essentially something to hook them up.
If it's publicly available idiots will use it to get into trouble.

You give a fae dealing survival guide to people and half of them are going to take it as a warranty that it's safe to do so even if you repeatedly say otherwise.

Magic lessons from my perspective are a complete nonstarter for anything public facing. It's almost guaranteed someone will build themselves a pipe bomb equivalent with it.
 
She isn't, it it's worth noting that law breaking and risky magical adventures aren't primarily happening because of bored teens. Everyone we see do stuff like that has a reason they think is good. "Trust me bro, don't " isn't going to be terribly effective if they don't see another way forward.
The teenage warlock that got executed in the beginning of Proven Guilty was IIRC specifically noted by Dresden to have probably broken the laws out of ignorance. So that's at least one canon character who could have been saved. I vaguely recall he might have also said that made up most warlocks these days due to the population explosion rendering the WC's usual methods of spreading knowledge of the laws ineffective, though I'm nowhere near as sure of that part.

And yeah, the ones that actually get books written about them are the one's who aren't acting out of ignorance, because the stories of the ones that are go "we killed the teenage necromancer before she built up to much steam because she didn't know how to hide her activities. It appears her oldest zombies were an attempt to resurrect her dead family, who'd been killed in a car accident a month prior. The End."

That's called a sampling bias.
 
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Idiots will do stupid things with magic, just like they do with everything else, but that doesn't mean informing people of things is a bad idea.

Elitist gatekeeping all knowledge for the worthy is invariably doing more harm than the normal run of morons ever could. Magical talents can use magic already without instruction and they are more likely to hurt themselves or others from ignorance than if they do get it.
 
She isn't, it it's worth noting that law breaking and risky magical adventures aren't primarily happening because of bored teens. Everyone we see do stuff like that has a reason they think is good. "Trust me bro, don't " isn't going to be terribly effective if they don't see another way forward.


Based on what? Giving people the ten cent tour of the laws is the same as saying "just say no to drugs". The laws of magic aren't exactly covering a whole bunch of stuff people will fall knot just fooling around. It's stuff like murder, mind control, and forcibly shape shifting other people.

The fourth law, mind control is something that could easily be triggered in a non serious way. Some kid thinks they are Obi Wan Kenobi and makes his teacher forget about the homework they did not turn in. Then we have invade the mind of another also sounds very grave when you put it that way, but then some kid thinks he is the star in What Women Want. Popular culture is filled with examples of fictional people breaking the hell out of the Laws of Magic. Other than the Law against murder and necromancy none of these have strong cultural taboos for someone who has never engaged with the supernatural.
 
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