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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
"Trust me bro, don't " isn't going to be terribly effective if they don't see another way forward.
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It's not, yes. But:
1) I think you are strongly underestimating the impact a 15+ successes quality education and indoctrination material can have on someone. It should be well beyond "having a religious experience that completely changes one's life" level.
2) It's not going to be effective if they don't see another way forward. Correct education would expand the audience's range of possible solutions to situations they find themselves in, and prevent them from using the Lawbreaking (or other bad) option when there are alternatives. Just because the solution isn't perfect, doesn't mean it's not good or isn't worth implementing.
BronzeTongue said:
Based on what? Giving people the ten cent tour of the laws is the same as saying "just say no to drugs". The laws of magic aren't exactly covering a whole bunch of stuff people will fall knot just fooling around. It's stuff like murder, mind control, and forcibly shape shifting other people.

People break it in ignorance of the backlash, but not just because their other plans fell through one weekend. Telling them it's dangerous and has consequences isn't a deterrent for the desperate.
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Again, we have a very different view of what 15+ successes educational and indoctrination material carefully prepared by a celestial exalt is, and how it would impact a young teen going through a trying time of their life.

Also, Laws also cover healing (falls under changing others), including stuff like scar removal, spiritism (summoning unwilling dead), telepathy. Even the best kind of education and indoctrination wouldn't help everyone in every situation. But it will help many.
BronzeTongue said:
The white council doesn't post videos online, but they do make a point of the laws in most interactions with minor talents. Go into a community of low key practitioners and they'll at least know what the laws are, and that's where most minor talents come from.
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This breaks at "go into a community" step. We know that there is essentially no community in a number of areas and for a number of groups. Charity fell into a cult because she didn't have a reliable source of information. Elaine was adopted because of her noticeable magical talent she knew nothing about. Order of Cauldron was, until recently, a female-only organization, and there is no equivalents for young males in Chicago area. I am willing to bet that a large number of practitioners either have no knowledge of the laws or White Council until Wardens break down their door, or have a very distorted view of them, possibly coming from the mouths of the fae and the like.
BronzeTongue said:
If it's publicly available idiots will use it to get into trouble.

You give a fae dealing survival guide to people and half of them are going to take it as a warranty that it's safe to do so even if you repeatedly say otherwise.

Magic lessons from my perspective are a complete nonstarter for anything public facing. It's almost guaranteed someone will build themselves a pipe bomb equivalent with it.
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We have a very different view on education. You seem to view it as information only. It's given to the recipients, and they decide freely based on their own biases how to use the information. I view it as inseparable (unless specifically desired, which is possible, but very hard) from indoctrination, where the teacher's biases affect the students in regards to the knowledge being transmitted.

If we, at 15+ successes, concentrate on how "if you break these rules, you'll lose SAN score, always, no escape, and the best and only hope for you would be to immediately call me / authorities" parts of the laws, I am fairly sure most, if not all mortals, would internalize it.
DragonParadox said:
The fourth law, mind control is something that could easily be triggered in a non serious way. Some kid thinks they are Obi Wan Kenobi and makes his teacher forget about the homework they did not turn in. Then we have invade the mind of another also sounds very grave when you put it that way, but then some kid thinks he is the star in What Women Want. Popular culture is filled with examples of fictional people breaking the hell out of the Laws of Magic. Other than the Law against murder and necromancy none of these have strong cultural taboos for someone who has never engaged with the supernatural.
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Though shalt now transform others is the one I would be most worried about. Cosmetic adjustments (hair dye magic, nail painting, etc), minor healing (scar removal, flu control, etc) all sound like good things. And they aren't.
 
Yog said:
Though shalt now transform others is the one I would be most worried about. Cosmetic adjustments (hair dye magic, nail painting, etc), minor healing (scar removal, flu control, etc) all sound like good things. And they aren't.
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I think that changing eyes, hair nails what have you especially go in the same grey magic category as sleep spells, especially if they are voluntary on the side of the other person. Of course the inexperienced magician could also mess up the transformation in ways that are life-scarring or deadly so still not a good idea.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I think that changing eyes, hair nails what have you especially go in the same grey magic category as sleep spells, especially if they are voluntary on the side of the other person. Of course the inexperienced magician could also mess up the transformation in ways that are life-scarring or deadly so still not a good idea.
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Also veils. Veils are totally "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another". Like, there's zero ambiguity there. Yet everyone uses them. Which, now that I think of it, is a part of why masquerade exists. You use veils, and it's reinforced in your mind that "it's a good and just to hide from others and conceal myself and the truth from their minds". And you do it often enough, and it seeps to other areas of your mind.
 
Yog said:
Also veils. Veils are totally "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another". Like, there's zero ambiguity there. Yet everyone uses them. Which, now that I think of it, is a part of why masquerade exists. You use veils, and it's reinforced in your mind that "it's a good and just to hide from others and conceal myself and the truth from their minds". And you do it often enough, and it seeps to other areas of your mind.
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Depends on how you cast them, but yes some veils are mental.
 
DragonParadox said:
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: Someone filled the internet with minor devils of alienation and spite and he's having them talking to new talents about magic...
The Merlin: Call the Blackstaff, Call the Senior council, tear down the inter-nets!
The One White Council Wizard Who Can Use A Computer: They are actually giving good advice.
The Merlin: Fuck!What's their angle? Is it a conspiracy? It's the fey isn't it? The White Court? TELL ME IT'S NOT OUTSIDERS!
:V

Seriously though if you are going to fill the internet with demons and target them at new talents you should expect someone to investigate you.
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You know funny thing about white council a decent portion of them do understand shit like science. They just can't really do a lot of the tech stuff for obvious reasons and so most don't know what shit like amazon or google is. I'm sure they have contacts to do that for them to a degree. But, they don't involve in politics as a rule and the internets new new by wizard standards so their not likely to have gotten much rules involving it all yet as any form of administration is likely somewhat slow. No way they have a lot of people on that stuff due to those rules and slow adaption.
 
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bengalqueen said:
I know this is mostly because our little cyberdevils are extremely sus, and an Infernal Exaltation is practically designed to give off as many red flags as possible, but...

It's been a depressingly long time in this universe since someone with enough knowledge and power to make a real difference actually tried anything major to improve the Status Quo, instead of either preserving it, doing their own thing, actively trying to make things worse, or desperately trying to prevent things from all falling apart, hasn't it? Ah well, guess it's time to change that. After all, if there's one thing every Exaltation is made for, it's changing the Status Quo, one way or another.
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hey hey plenty of them are looking to change the status quo look at nicodemus, look at Aurora, look at Maeve! Their all positively trying to change the world! Totally for the better!

Edit: Though more seriously it kinda looks like a bunch of figures have a bunch of xanatos gambits going on in the background of dresden files even if its the villains with a lot more of them.
 
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Yog said:
Also veils. Veils are totally "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another". Like, there's zero ambiguity there. Yet everyone uses them. Which, now that I think of it, is a part of why masquerade exists. You use veils, and it's reinforced in your mind that "it's a good and just to hide from others and conceal myself and the truth from their minds". And you do it often enough, and it seeps to other areas of your mind.
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some veils are light bending bullshit. Though I'll note butcher has as much said that not all the rules are 100% ground in full proof logic. That there are mitigating circumstances, some things aren't as corrupting as others, and stuff like ghost seeing talent is a sketchy area for necromancy. The wardens just don't really have the opportunity to study that for practical reasons, because doing these things too much can have bad consequences, they aren't in the habit of letting something slide and seeing if its fine, and a bunch of other things. Also how magic is sort of a self reinforcing thing in that to do something you need to believe in it so do it enough and you start thinking yeah that makes sense and thats corrupting.
 
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firefrog600 said:
You know funny thing about white council a decent portion of them do understand shit like science. They just can't really do a lot of the tech stuff for obvious reasons and so most don't know what shit like amazon or google is. I'm sure they have contacts to do that for them to a degree. But, they don't involve in politics as a rule and the internets new new by wizard standards so their not likely to have gotten much rules involving it all yet as any form of administration is likely somewhat slow. No way they have a lot of people on that stuff due to those rules and slow adaption.
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Understand science, sure? Listens to the Wind keeps up to date on medicine. Can interact with a computer? Not so much, they use pen and paper or typing machines. And without a computer there is no reason to learn about the internet, they are not stupid, they are limited by metaphysics.
 
Vote closed, let's see how Murphy reacts to the stone dragon.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 27, 2023 at 9:35 AM, finished with 96 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] Accept Porter's sugestion, at the very least he should be able to get detective Murphy off her interogation game
    [X] Reject Porter's suggestion. His heart is in the right place, but you really do not think a stone dragon who thinks mortals like to be posed riddles is going to solve this issue
    [X] Perhaps a mix of things? First is a frank explanation that the supernatural might live in the USA, but they're not exactly part of the country. They're basically foreign nationals living in a parallel society. What they see as their rules is not often when we as 'mortals' see as our rules, because we're in two different worlds even when we're on the same soil.
    -[X] Then, if she's amendable, throw a set of riddles at her. Basically, supernatural beings violating the rules of man, and ask what she thinks the punishment would be? And no, calling the library of congress cannot be done for all of them.
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DragonParadox said:
Understand science, sure? Listens to the Wind keeps up to date on medicine. Can interact with a computer? Not so much, they use pen and paper or typing machines. And without a computer there is no reason to learn about the internet, they are not stupid, they are limited by metaphysics.
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Oh no debate there I'm just mentioning for a couple reasons in that not all players are aware of the source material and there is often the old trope of wizards don't understand science. Which isn't totally true here it definitely exists to a degree its not anything like dominating the culture though. Oh also I'll say most aren't stupid I still always remember that one speech dresden and his grandpa had about stupidity and evil. Incompetence does sometimes exist. Heck not even just in wizards its an explicit plot point that the red king is incompetent at least when it comes to tactics and controlling himself and is largely hindering the war efforts against the council.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
That basically just a formality, especially if we get a proper training room built, or just buy or rent a place with a walk in freezer.
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I mean we do want celestial martial arts eventually though honestly doubt we'll get it too much effort for something that would take a lot of exp and in character effort when we're sorta short on time technically.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 27, 2023 at 9:35 AM, finished with 96 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] Accept Porter's sugestion, at the very least he should be able to get detective Murphy off her interogation game
    [X] Reject Porter's suggestion. His heart is in the right place, but you really do not think a stone dragon who thinks mortals like to be posed riddles is going to solve this issue
    [X] Perhaps a mix of things? First is a frank explanation that the supernatural might live in the USA, but they're not exactly part of the country. They're basically foreign nationals living in a parallel society. What they see as their rules is not often when we as 'mortals' see as our rules, because we're in two different worlds even when we're on the same soil.
    -[X] Then, if she's amendable, throw a set of riddles at her. Basically, supernatural beings violating the rules of man, and ask what she thinks the punishment would be? And no, calling the library of congress cannot be done for all of them.
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Arc 6 Post 51: Of Tale and Verse
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    • Of Tale and Verse ​

    17th of October 2006 A.D.

    Even though you try your best to make the invitation as casual as possible, there are limits to how one can offer to meet a cop down in the spirit and monster haunted underworld of the city. "Should I bring rubber boots or just by gun?" she asks coldly, obviously expecting you to show her some kind of monster that you think mortals cannot face.

    I have more respect for her integrity than that. Cheerfully you add: "It's drier than outside and the route down here should be safe enough, our neighbors are reasonable people."

    "Alright, I'll be at the entrance at seven."

    ***​

    That opens up a whole day to worry about what to say, but not just to worry. After getting home from school you ask dad if he's ever been in this kind of bind, unable to explain his actions in a way that makes sense to someone who is sincerely trying to do the right thing but doesn't have the tools to.

    "Once..." he sighs and leans back in his chair, eyes briefly closed against some unwanted memory. "Twelve, thirteen years ago now Tarsiel's previous host willingly surrendered his coin after I confronted him with the proof that Lartessa and Imariel had under the guise of mentoring in the use of his powers been breaking down all the bonds with his old life, driving him to rage and spite against those whom he once loved. He had attacked his sister over supposedly 'betraying' him to the Church. In truth it had been Lartessa who tipped me off, altering her voice over the phone specifically to arrange the scene in which he would poison her with Tarsiel's sting."

    That's... you are not sure what to say. The idea of a Denarian being able to manipulate a Knight of the Cross, to manipulate your dad,like that is terrifying, but he is not done yet.

    "Lartessa did not account for the young Denarian's sister living through the posion, nor later being able to sow enough doubt in her brother's mind to make other actions of his 'mentor' take on their true sinister guise, but she had been hospitalized for the poison and in the midst of delirium named him as the perpetrator."

    "So you had the police on the trail of a very real crime that the victim did not want to admit happens and you were the only other witness."

    Your father nods. "The boy would not have done well in prison he had been in and out of juvenile detention for years and given the power the Order of the Blackened Denatius craved from him..." At your expectant look he tsks. "Ah, I didn't tell you? Must be my age catching up to me, he was a geomancer, could cause minor tremors. Add to that the power of a Fallen Angel and certain dark ritual and he might have conjured far worse."

    "Sure dad, you look positively ancient." Even though you roll your eyes there is a chill at the back of your neck at your reminder of his mortality. This thing, this power you have is the farthest thing from mortal imaginable. I'm going to outlive...

    If he notices your sudden worry he does not mention it, continuing instead with the story. "Regardless given his powers and his past I doubted any prison could hold him and any escape would have been marked by yet more deaths. So I refused to testify, even though as the one who brought her to the hospital I was a known potential witness to the police."

    "So what did you say to them?" you prompt, leaning a little over the spotless as always kitchen table.

    "I should warn you that this isn't a magic formula, they did not all understand, or believe me anything other than a madman or even an accomplice, but I found the most success with Mark 12;17 Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God. The Fallen do not fall under the law of the land and it would be an injustice to judge one with such poison poured in their ear as though they had been sound of mind. Detective Murphy was raised in the Church and still attends services so a bit of theology might help."

    "Thanks dad," you part ways with a smile.

    Where do you meet Karin Murphy?

    [] The game room/lounge of the Last Station
    -[] Write in arguments and charms

    [] Pretend you have something to work on in the ritual room (+2 Dice from the subzero temperature maintained there)
    -[] Write in arguments and charms

    OOC: You guys have mostly taken advantage of that Mentor status in fights, but Michael can do more than that. Even with just one success on the advice he gives you a flat -1 DC for social rolls to convince Murphy, since this is a conundrum he had encountered before and considered quite a bit.
     
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    • Leaning towards game room. We... aren't trying to play her that hard and I don't want to be a dick about things. Going sub zero is leaning into our treating her as a solved equation rather than a human being and, while it might be effective, fuck being effective.

    [X] The game room/lounge of the Last Station
     
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