Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I'm unsure why people think the eye stuff is stupid its made pretty clear in dresden files the world is more than what we've previously seen bullshit things that exist do not have to be fully explained to us and they can just suddenly come around.
I think it's stupid due to the way it was introduced and used, on top of the general shit tier quality of Ethinu as a character.

It just showed up out of nowhere with no foreshadowing. Coming into it I didn't think the top end guys were invincible, but I didn't think they had an easy button either. I don't particularly think they needed one to be honest, just have the big monster shoot magic lasers or whatever.

But fine, we have Chekhov's deity grade gun on the mantle.

Ethinu takes it down and shoots it at multiple people, and never kills anyone who actually matters.

It was a cheap trick for drama that wasn't even committed to. The eye of balor existed as an excuse to explain why Ethinu's death rays were extra scary.

Ethinu herself was the same way. She came out of nowhere, beat up some characters with actual interesting backgrounds, and then died failing to do anything or make the readers (or at least me) care about her.

An antagonist doesn't have to be likable, but they do have to be engaging if they're supposed to hold a central role in the plot.

Take Nicodemus; he's evil in a truly horrific way. His whole life is fractally fucked up, the more you look the more broken things are in all kinds of ways. As a reader seeing what the hell is going on with him is interesting, even when it disgusts you and/or makes you that much more eager to see him die.

Ethinu was supposed to be a pawn, but she was effectively the face of the opposition for some critical moments where she had to be a linchpin for the narrative.

The eye is just a particularly glaring example of a fundamental problem with the plot it's part of.
Fair, but my original point was comparing modern weaponry to the Eye of Balor, wherein mundane nukes have an overwhelming edge in both area of effect and total damage. Mostly so that I can justify why a davy crockett is our key to showing everybody who's boss :evil:
The comparison is flawed, but I don't think you need that much justification to nuke the high end assholes of the setting.
 
I think it's stupid due to the way it was introduced and used, on top of the general shit tier quality of Ethinu as a character.

It just showed up out of nowhere with no foreshadowing. Coming into it I didn't think the top end guys were invincible, but I didn't think they had an easy button either. I don't particularly think they needed one to be honest, just have the big monster shoot magic lasers or whatever.

But fine, we have Chekhov's deity grade gun on the mantle.

Ethinu takes it down and shoots it at multiple people, and never kills anyone who actually matters.

It was a cheap trick for drama that wasn't even committed to. The eye of balor existed as an excuse to explain why Ethinu's death rays were extra scary.

Ethinu herself was the same way. She came out of nowhere, beat up some characters with actual interesting backgrounds, and then died failing to do anything or make the readers (or at least me) care about her.

An antagonist doesn't have to be likable, but they do have to be engaging if they're supposed to hold a central role in the plot.

Take Nicodemus; he's evil in a truly horrific way. His whole life is fractally fucked up, the more you look the more broken things are in all kinds of ways. As a reader seeing what the hell is going on with him is interesting, even when it disgusts you and/or makes you that much more eager to see him die.

Ethinu was supposed to be a pawn, but she was effectively the face of the opposition for some critical moments where she had to be a linchpin for the narrative.

The eye is just a particularly glaring example of a fundamental problem with the plot it's part of.

The comparison is flawed, but I don't think you need that much justification to nuke the high end assholes of the setting.
I get the dislike kind of well not really its almost impossible to make me hate some plot. But, its kinda shown that dresden doesn't really know the whole picture time and time again. Also the worlds huge and if we're being honest dresdens only explored a small part of it.
 
[x] uju32

Also, going over the checklist for what we want to do in the final lead-up:

  • Mercenaries we hired should mostly focus on hostage rescue. That's the part where we need more bodies and where we care more if it goes wrong. Not that that's necessarily the only thing they're doing, just that that's the main thing we should put their focus on.
  • The greater Akuma needs to be perma-killed, hard. That means that one of the Exalts with spirit killers should strike the final blow.
  • Right before going in, we need to spend 2-3 rounds, 4 essence, and 2 temporary willpower buffing up our scene-longs. That means:
    • Getting wet to activate BSM
    • Activating Steel Skin while wet for the difficulty reduction, since I think that makes it slightly more likely than not that we'll hit the Stamina cap for the charm in Shintai form if we have the -1DC
    • Activating Shintai
    • I don't know if VLE counts boosts to Stamina retroactively if you boost while it's active, but if not than we want to do it last in the third round of boosting. Otherwise it doesn't matter when we do it and can boost in 2 rounds
  • I would like the Bakemono, especially the kid, to be captured alive. We have an upcoming XP buy we can use to get Sapphire Circle Exorcism and cure them, and our healing potions make it survivable. They're essentially extra-hard hostages
  • Not sure what everyone else should be doing, I'll let more tactically-inclined people figure that out, but we should definitely have a clearly hashed-out plan going in for everyone before combat starts, including everyone's roll and priorities in the fight
And I think that's a complete list of everything we need to deal with during the actual combat strategy vote that's coming after this. Just to make sure nobody forgets anything.
 
I get the dislike kind of well not really its almost impossible to make me hate some plot. But, its kinda shown that dresden doesn't really know the whole picture time and time again. Also the worlds huge and if we're being honest dresdens only explored a small part of it.
Yeah, but the thing is the whole story is from Dresden's perspective. Going into it there has to be some allowance for building the story elements through the lens you're telling it with.

Butcher has thrown curveballs before and made them interesting. The Denarians popped up out of nowhere, but built up in an interesting way as antagonists. There was build up, and Dresden's ignorance was used to show things to the audience in an organic way.

Battlegrounds read like baby's first fanfic without the grammar issues.
 
Yeah, but the thing is the whole story is from Dresden's perspective. Going into it there has to be some allowance for building the story elements through the lens you're telling it with.

Butcher has thrown curveballs before and made them interesting. The Denarians popped up out of nowhere, but built up in an interesting way as antagonists. There was build up, and Dresden's ignorance was used to show things to the audience in an organic way.

Battlegrounds read like baby's first fanfic without the grammar issues.
fair enough you don't like it from a story perspective it can uhm grinding no whats the word jarging no jarring? yeah jarring. But, from a sort of realistic standpoint its kinda clear that dresdens only seen a small portion of the world and overall that doesn't cater to him.

Like I get what your saying just from my opinion yeah no shit there are big things that just exist that have their own plans and which are gonna pop up. Also its technically not no foreshadowing like I'm fairly sure jim knew ethniu would happen books ahead of time seeing as fomori stuff has been around since ghost story. Just a big hitter of those people coming can be annoying. There's really just so much we don't know about the world that we know exists out there like spirits, how did foo dogs exist what are their specific mechanics, whats the deal with gods and how many of them have different deals, how did red court or any other courts start, etc etc. Like the world of dresden files is generally gripped with mystery and so I just see it as something thats just expected to occasionally throw an annoying curve ball at us and go yeah I can see it.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Mar 27, 2023 at 11:43 PM, finished with 40 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] The location of the hostages and of the Greater Akuma
    -[X] Split up one Einherjer team and Valkyrie to go for the hostages, the rest of the group is on assault
    -[X] If the hostages are far enough from the majority of their captors, open up with the mortar and heavy-weapon team, expose as much as possible to the sunlight
    -[X] Molly will enter Shintai and use VLE before the opening shot, unless the enemies are far more spread out than we assumed
    -[X] Send Lydia's golems in first in case the nearest entry-points are trapped
    [X] The location of the hostages and J
    [X]STUNT: You catch yourself with an effort as words of the Lord's Prayer rise unbidden to your mind. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. With an effort you bring up J's face "This one was recruited under duress. How much duress, I dont know. Be careful." And while you're at it, you pull up the faces of the four bakemono you know, starting with the ten year old. "And these are mortals they put demons in. Just so you're aware of them."


I could use some more votes.
Replies in a bit.
 
The death of the Red King alone is a major blow; we've seen time and time again that the leaders of the supernatural factions constitute a major portion of their respective faction's strength. Without him to threaten Titania or Mab or even Merlin, even the Lords/Dukes/Counts will have trouble surviving against a heavyweight taking to the field. Much like how the Erlking and Odin, despite being higher-ups in the Winter Court, still did jack and squat against Ethniu, so too are the mid- and low-ranking vampires gonna fall like wheat against a serious push from their enemies once they lose their own leader. If we took out a major portion of the Lords as well, that's even more damage. Basically, while the sheer number of vampires is the main reason that the Red Court has an iron grip over South America, it's the heavyweights of the Court that actually matter in the face of supernatural opposition.

It won't be a killing blow, but it will be a fatal one (with some luck) once the other factions, like the Fomorians, take advantage (it may even work out better for us with more mooks alive to deal damage to the Fomorians as they clash).

And I assure you, I'm not gonna complain about the Red Court using WMDs. I haven't called foul on their whipping up a Bloodline Curse to kill the Blackstaff, and they really can't call foul on us when they're all fucking dead. That's the beauty of nuking your opposition first; if you wipe out everyone who can retaliate, well, nobody can retaliate. And by the time Molly could feasibly get her hands on a nuke, it'll take at least the Red King and several Lords to take her on in a fight; once the Red King is out of the picture, even if all 13 Lords somehow survived and tried to take vengeance, considering each one is supposedly only on par with Odin (and given Odin's piss-poor showing in Battle Ground) they're not gonna be much of a problem with the right allies on her side (13 vs 1 is not gonna end well, but that's what friends and minions are for).
The backstory of the entire book of Changes was Arianna Ortega deciding her father was incapable and trying to get enough political cred to overthrow her father as Red King and elevate another Lord of Outer Night as Red King in his place, and Kukulkan the Red King trying to outmaneuver his daughter and eventually arranging to have her killed in a duel by Dresden.

If he was a critical element of Red Court power, it wouldnt even have been an option.
So no, I think you misunderstand the relationship of the Red King to the Red Court's total political and military power.

===
Thats not how it works.
We dont have a reasonable hope of getting them all, and then the apocalypse codex is open. Of all the vampire Courts, the Reds are the second fastest at replacing losses after Blampires, and they are much less vulnerable to random banes than the Blacks.

Not like its especially difficult for a polity that essentially runs most of South America to have a pharmaceutical company or a chemical supplies company cook up several hundred pounds of military-grade sarin or VX; Aum Shin Ri Kyo did it in Japan, and they were just a cult.

After that, a single Bloodpack can haul a chemical weapon or six into Chicago by the NeverNever.
And voila, strategic retaliation.
Careful what you wish for.

Not to mention that failing to get them all does things like push them further into Outsider bargains.

====
Also, heavyweights is apparently not how the Red Court fights.
See Archangelsk, home of a Senior Council wizard and a major White Council fortress of combat wizards, and the fact that while Paolo Ortega planned that attack, nothing says he, or any of the major big wigs, were there.



So, we don't know how God's debuffing works. It's never explicitly explained whether or not Ethniu would weaken after blowing her load in Chicago, but given she was confident enough to take on everybody at the same time, I think it's safe to say it would last long enough for her to kill everyone. Doesn't matter if Ethniu weakens afterward when she's ready to execute everybody who thought they could scrap with her, and she probably had that capability. Otherwise, it really doesn't make sense for her to make an enemy out of the entire world and then once she's weaker go "haha, that was a prank guys! We still cool right?"

Which begs the question, once again, how the heck the Fomor got driven into the seas. Ethniu, as you said, doesn't give a shit about the world. Why wouldn't she just roll out 20 years ago when Mab tried to set up the Accords and steamroll Mab? It's pretty clear Mab can do a whole lotta nothing against Ethniu, given one single city block-busting laser took her out of the fight. Literally, one shot and she's done. I would make a joke about her stamina if it weren't already so pathetic. It didn't just disable her, the Eye of Balor knocked her on her ass to the point she face-planted straight into the dirt. If her Court and sister-Queen hadn't shown up to get their asses kicked, she would've gotten her ass kicked a second time, probably inside-out Malfeas-like given how much Ethniu hated her.

Also, Ethniu herself admits to being powered by the fear of children in contrast to Odin being powered by their faith and calls that out as part of the reason she could snap him like a KitKat bar. She sure didn't speak nor act like she was gonna weaken anytime soon. Not to mention none of those fighting her brought up the cheat code of just waiting Ethniu out until she weakens. Which, let's face it, no immortal shown in Battle Ground would've had an issue with letting Chicago burn if it meant they could fight Ethniu in a weaker state; Dresden and the White Council might've still fought, but they very much could not be compared to Odin or Erlking or Titania, and if Ethniu were to actually weaken to be jumpable by them, you bet your ass they would've sat out the fight and wait for a better time. That everybody jumped Ethniu regardless pretty heavily implies she wasn't gonna weaken anytime soon.

The worst part of all of this is just how weak everyone seems. Ethniu, who destroyed every immortal tried to face her head-on, had the firepower of a couple dozen pieces of modern artillery to take out Mab, and less than that to bitch-slap Titania at the height of her power.

Even the naagloshii turned out to be way weaker than thought. We now know nukes can kill them, but also that that's way overkill given Listens-to-Wind sent one fleeing by shapeshifting in Turncoat. Literally, beat the naagloshii like a percussion set with a bear's paws, mountain lion's claws and a fucking turtle's jaw.

Similarly, if Mab could soak a nuke, she wouldn't have damn near passed out blocking a city-block-buster, while on a super-unicorn boosting her magic. I'll put a nuclear weapon at way more conceptual an armament than a random mythological bauble that maybe ten million people know of; more people probably think LOTR when you say Balor than Irish myths. Mab might be more than a skinwalker, but she's shown her upper limits, and they're still pretty fucking low.
1)Ethniu did not act like someone who was entirely rational. There's been a whole bunch of that going around from the beginning of the series. A lot of Dresdenverse bad guys are either irrational or afflicted by tunnel vision; see Nicodemus going to call in a favor with Mab to rob Hades barely a handfull of years after he flagrantly violated her Accords.

Seriously, go through every Dresden villain, from Sells to Ethniu; who wouldnt have been better served with a simpler plan or fewer enemies?


2)Ethniu rules the Fomor.
Ethniu is not Fomor herself, nor does she forward Formor foreign policy. They serve her, not the other way around.
At least, thats her thinking.

We dont know when she assumed command of thr Formor, just that it was a long time ago, and presumably after the Fomor fled; its explicitly said the Fomor made alliances with forgotte gods after fleeing.


3)The Eye of Balor is a magic weapon with conceptual weight. Its effectiveness is not measured in biggatons.
Neither are most things or people in the setting.

Michael and Amoracchius killed a Dragon, but Amoracchius can be parried by common steel, and Michael was crippled by an AK. Mab can wreck the earth if she chooses, but she can also be paralysed by an iron projectile through the neck, and walk it off as soon as its removed. Fidelacchius killed a Lord of Outer Night, but it was broken by one guy, and its then-wielder died to a gunshot.


4)Dont overthink Ethniu's bantz.
Prebattle insults and the like are not to be taken literally. Especially since a lot of the power her superweapon was tapping was enhanced by fear and panic, and so its in her favor to exaggerate.

As far as I know, neither her nor the Fomor have any prohibitions against lying.


5)Not actually true.
Chicago was a challenge to the Courts in particular, and the supernatural community in general. They couldnt not come.
The bulk of the defenses of Chicago were Winter; the White Council sent 3x Senior Council members only.

The Eye is stupid in terms of what we seen from Battle Ground juxtaposing really hard with WoJ; the Eye isn't exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun before. The manner in which you can confront the Eye is more or less equivalent to trying to confront a tank as an infantryman; head-on it's suicide, but you have a lot more options than taking a tank-shell head-on.
Permit me to rephrase this:

The Eye Swords of the Cross isn't arent exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser sword that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun sword before.

I could do the same substitution with a bunch of other things, like Morgana's Athame, the Shroud of Turin, the Blackstaff, or the Spear of Destiny. And it would be similarly misleading.
Some items in this setting have conceptual weight, even though you can defend against their use.

If Uriel stood still. Which he and the rest of the top-tier figures never would. There's a reason super-speed is the best superpower, and that's because if you can't hit someone it doesn't matter how hard you hit.
Not to mention that it can be blocked as well, as Mab showed. The Eye's no Avada Kedavra is what I'm trying to say.
Point of correction:
If Uriel did nothing. Small but subtle distinction.
He might well choose to stand and soak it, like Mab did. Only Im reasonably certain that if he chooses to soak it, he's going to be in much better shape than Mab was under the same circumstances.

I would like the Bakemono, especially the kid, to be captured alive. We have an upcoming XP buy we can use to get Sapphire Circle Exorcism and cure them, and our healing potions make it survivable. They're essentially extra-hard hostages
Shouldnt need Sapphire Circle Exorcism or magic.
Demon exorcism and banishment is literally in-theme for Michael as a paladin of the White God and a bearer of a Sword.

He has canonically broken Mab's sealing of Dresden's memories of fire magic in Small Favor, and the working of the Fallen Angel Imariel in Skin Game. AND Amoracchius is capable of truekilling demons.
A demon of Kankuri possessing a mortal is bush-tier by comparison.

And there's always Gard.
 
Last edited:
michael probably has what 5 dots in true faith for the white god?
The backstory of the entire book of Changes was Arianna Ortega deciding her father was incapable and trying to get enough political cred to overthrow her father as Red King and elevate another Lord of Outer Night as Red King in his place, and Kukulkan the Red King trying to outmaneuver his daughter and eventually arranging to have her killed in a duel by Dresden.

If he was a critical element of Red Court power, it wouldnt even have been an option.
So no, I think you misunderstand the relationship of the Red King to the Red Court's total political and military power.

===
Thats not how it works.
We dont have a reasonable hope of getting them all, and then the apocalypse codex is open. Of all the vampire Courts, the Reds are the second fastest at replacing losses after Blampires, and they are much less vulnerable to random banes than the Blacks.

Not like its especially difficult for a polity that essentially runs most of South America to have a pharmaceutical company or a chemical supplies company cook up several hundred pounds of military-grade sarin or VX; Aum Shin Ri Kyo did it in Japan, and they were just a cult.

After that, a single Bloodpack can haul a chemical weapon or six into Chicago by the NeverNever.
And voila, strategic retaliation.
Careful what you wish for.

Not to mention that failing to get them all does things like push them further into Outsider bargains.

====
Also, heavyweights is apparently not how the Red Court fights.
See Archangelsk, home of a Senior Council wizard and a major White Council fortress of combat wizards, and the fact that while Paolo Ortega planned that attack, nothing says he, or any of the major big wigs, were there.




1)Ethniu did not act like someone who was entirely rational. There's been a whole bunch of that going around from the beginning of the series. A lot of Dresdenverse bad guys are either irrational or afflicted by tunnel vision; see Nicodemus going to call in a favor with Mab to rob Hades barely a handfull of years after he flagrantly violated her Accords.

Seriously, go through every Dresden villain, from Sells to Ethniu; who wouldnt have been better served with a simpler plan or fewer enemies?


2)Ethniu rules the Fomor.
Ethniu is not Fomor herself, nor does she forward Formor foreign policy. They serve her, not the other way around.
At least, thats her thinking.

We dont know when she assumed command of thr Formor, just that it was a long time ago, and presumably after the Fomor fled; its explicitly said the Fomor made alliances with forgotte gods after fleeing.


3)The Eye of Balor is a magic weapon with conceptual weight. Its effectiveness is not measured in biggatons.
Neither are most things or people in the setting.

Michael and Amoracchius killed a Dragon, but Amoracchius can be parried by common steel, and Michael was crippled by an AK. Mab can wreck the earth if she chooses, but she can also be paralysed by an iron projectile through the neck, and walk it off as soon as its removed. Fidelacchius killed a Lord of Outer Night, but it was broken by one guy, and its then-wielder died to a gunshot.


4)Dont overthink Ethniu's bantz.
Prebattle insults and the like are not to be taken literally. Especially since a lot of the power her superweapon was tapping was enhanced by fear and panic, and so its in her favor to exaggerate.

As far as I know, neither her nor the Fomor have any prohibitions against lying.


5)Not actually true.
Chicago was a challenge to the Courts in particular, and the supernatural community in general. They couldnt not come.
The bulk of the defenses of Chicago were Winter; the White Council sent 3x Senior Council members only.


Permit me to rephrase this:

The Eye Swords of the Cross isn't arent exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser sword that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun sword before.

I could do the same substitution with a bunch of other things, like Morgana's Athame, the Shroud of Turin, the Blackstaff, or the Spear of Destiny. And it would be similarly misleading.
Some items in this setting have conceptual weight, even though you can defend against their use.


Point of correction:
If Uriel did nothing. Small but subtle distinction.
He might well choose to stand and soak it, like Mab did. Only Im reasonably certain that if he chooses to soak it, he's going to be in much better shape than Mab was under the same circumstances.


Shouldnt need Sapphire Circle Exorcism or magic.
Demon exorcism and banishment is literally in-theme for Michael as a paladin of the White God and a bearer of a Sword.

He has canonically broken Mab's sealing of Dresden's memories of fire magic in Small Favor, and the working of the Fallen Angel Imariel in Skin Game. AND Amoracchius is capable of truekilling demons.
A demon of Kankuri possessing a mortal is bush-tier by comparison.

And there's always Gard.
thank you. Honestly I don't speak good and this is a lot of the things I was thinking.
 
Thats not how it works.
We dont have a reasonable hope of getting them all, and then the apocalypse codex is open. Of all the vampire Courts, the Reds are the second fastest at replacing losses after Blampires, and they are much less vulnerable to random banes than the Blacks.
The problem with this view is that you are completely ignoring the massive and ongoing human cost of letting various monsters do whatever they want.

We have some (unreliable) numbers indicating that casualties from supernatural nasties are as high as one-third of a percent of total population per year in the USA alone and given the sheer numbers of monsters we see in the books those numbers are plausible. There isn't actually a choice between mass death and suffering or leaving the monsters alone, the choice is mass suffering/death in perpetuity or fight the monsters and maybe get less death.
 
The backstory of the entire book of Changes was Arianna Ortega deciding her father was incapable and trying to get enough political cred to overthrow her father as Red King and elevate another Lord of Outer Night as Red King in his place, and Kukulkan the Red King trying to outmaneuver his daughter and eventually arranging to have her killed in a duel by Dresden.

If he was a critical element of Red Court power, it wouldnt even have been an option.
So no, I think you misunderstand the relationship of the Red King to the Red Court's total political and military power.

===
Thats not how it works.
We dont have a reasonable hope of getting them all, and then the apocalypse codex is open. Of all the vampire Courts, the Reds are the second fastest at replacing losses after Blampires, and they are much less vulnerable to random banes than the Blacks.

Not like its especially difficult for a polity that essentially runs most of South America to have a pharmaceutical company or a chemical supplies company cook up several hundred pounds of military-grade sarin or VX; Aum Shin Ri Kyo did it in Japan, and they were just a cult.

After that, a single Bloodpack can haul a chemical weapon or six into Chicago by the NeverNever.
And voila, strategic retaliation.
Careful what you wish for.

Not to mention that failing to get them all does things like push them further into Outsider bargains.
They still rely on Elder Vampires to survive as a faction.
A new-made bloodpack will be both weak in personal combat and need some serious education on the supernatural world.

A pack like that can be killed by the local Warden, hunted down by a group of Fey or even killed by Whampires and a few of their pawns.

Without the personal power of the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night backing them up most individual Reds just aren't that threatening to the supernatural community and if they try extremly dangerous and visible stuff like mass-transforming humans into fresh vamps with minimal self-control, they will get the boot from other local powers.

Replacing a dictator or a drug-boss with another one doesn't make things better.
Replacing a Methusela with a bunch of quarreling Ancilla will definitly make them far less capable of surviving.
 
They still rely on Elder Vampires to survive as a faction.
A new-made bloodpack will be both weak in personal combat and need some serious education on the supernatural world.

A pack like that can be killed by the local Warden, hunted down by a group of Fey or even killed by Whampires and a few of their pawns.

Without the personal power of the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night backing them up most individual Reds just aren't that threatening to the supernatural community and if they try extremly dangerous and visible stuff like mass-transforming humans into fresh vamps with minimal self-control, they will get the boot from other local powers.

Replacing a dictator or a drug-boss with another one doesn't make things better.
Replacing a Methusela with a bunch of quarreling Ancilla will definitly make them far less capable of surviving.
I'll note a 'local' warden is something like a 100 mile area minimum if not more that they need to cover. Wardens are very undermanned some countries don't have native wardens period. Not really disagreeing on the other stuff though.
 
I'll note a 'local' warden is something like a 100 mile area minimum if not more that they need to cover. Wardens are very undermanned some countries don't have native wardens period. Not really disagreeing on the other stuff though.
Yeah, but if there's no Warden then there's all the more other gribblies.

And also Formor-enchroachment propably, once the Red Court looses the ability to send high-power teams from Mexico to deal with that.
 
The backstory of the entire book of Changes was Arianna Ortega deciding her father was incapable and trying to get enough political cred to overthrow her father as Red King and elevate another Lord of Outer Night as Red King in his place, and Kukulkan the Red King trying to outmaneuver his daughter and eventually arranging to have her killed in a duel by Dresden.

If he was a critical element of Red Court power, it wouldnt even have been an option.
So no, I think you misunderstand the relationship of the Red King to the Red Court's total political and military power.

===
Thats not how it works.
We dont have a reasonable hope of getting them all, and then the apocalypse codex is open. Of all the vampire Courts, the Reds are the second fastest at replacing losses after Blampires, and they are much less vulnerable to random banes than the Blacks.

Not like its especially difficult for a polity that essentially runs most of South America to have a pharmaceutical company or a chemical supplies company cook up several hundred pounds of military-grade sarin or VX; Aum Shin Ri Kyo did it in Japan, and they were just a cult.

After that, a single Bloodpack can haul a chemical weapon or six into Chicago by the NeverNever.
And voila, strategic retaliation.
Careful what you wish for.

Not to mention that failing to get them all does things like push them further into Outsider bargains.

====
Also, heavyweights is apparently not how the Red Court fights.
See Archangelsk, home of a Senior Council wizard and a major White Council fortress of combat wizards, and the fact that while Paolo Ortega planned that attack, nothing says he, or any of the major big wigs, were there.

I concede the point about the Red King not being a central figure like Mab. I appear to have mistaken his power to be equivalent to Lord Raith's anti-magic bullshit.

However, given the number of people already dying daily to the Red Court's predation, I'll say they've already opened the can of worms by matching multiple WMDs worth of kilodeath. Them trying to escalate further by taking sarin gas to Chicago is just asking for them to be wiped out with escalation that they cannot match. They wipe out a large American city, America and everybody else wipes out every last Rhampire. Humanity can take a lot more punishment than any mortal world-based supernatural faction and they know it and act accordingly. This isn't a MAD situation and everybody in the know knows it.

1)Ethniu did not act like someone who was entirely rational. There's been a whole bunch of that going around from the beginning of the series. A lot of Dresdenverse bad guys are either irrational or afflicted by tunnel vision; see Nicodemus going to call in a favor with Mab to rob Hades barely a handfull of years after he flagrantly violated her Accords.

Seriously, go through every Dresden villain, from Sells to Ethniu; who wouldnt have been better served with a simpler plan or fewer enemies?


2)Ethniu rules the Fomor.
Ethniu is not Fomor herself, nor does she forward Formor foreign policy. They serve her, not the other way around.
At least, thats her thinking.

We dont know when she assumed command of thr Formor, just that it was a long time ago, and presumably after the Fomor fled; its explicitly said the Fomor made alliances with forgotte gods after fleeing.


3)The Eye of Balor is a magic weapon with conceptual weight. Its effectiveness is not measured in biggatons.
Neither are most things or people in the setting.

Michael and Amoracchius killed a Dragon, but Amoracchius can be parried by common steel, and Michael was crippled by an AK. Mab can wreck the earth if she chooses, but she can also be paralysed by an iron projectile through the neck, and walk it off as soon as its removed. Fidelacchius killed a Lord of Outer Night, but it was broken by one guy, and its then-wielder died to a gunshot.


4)Dont overthink Ethniu's bantz.
Prebattle insults and the like are not to be taken literally. Especially since a lot of the power her superweapon was tapping was enhanced by fear and panic, and so its in her favor to exaggerate.


5)Not actually true.
Chicago was a challenge to the Courts in particular, and the supernatural community in general. They couldnt not come.
The bulk of the defenses of Chicago were Winter; the White Council sent 3x Senior Council members only.

1. I don't think it takes all that much rationality to run the numbers and realize you're gonna die if you step into the mortal world and get debuffed by God and dogpiled by all your many many enemies. We're never given a single hint of IC proof, explicit or implicit, that Ethniu's gonna get the villain-turned-friend power downgrade treatment as soon as she's done beating everyone's asses. The very idea that she'll get the same treatment Odin got is fanon, and contradicted by her actions and deeds.

2. Exactly. Ethniu rules the Fomor, they do as she says, and the one person she loathes beyond all others is Mab. Why would she, in all her anger and pride, lower herself to deal with someone much weaker than her, who she also hates? More proof of the slapdash way Ethniu and the Fomor were inserted into the story.

3. I don't disagree that much of what's in the story isn't measured in biggatons, and that only confuses me more. People in Dresden Files are extremely limited in very perplexing ways, throwing around all sorts of impressive words and showing very very little to back them up. Probably a symptom of the genre being Urban Fantasy and not Epic Fantasy, but that just means people walking out of Epic Fantasy (like the Exalted) have all that more of an advantage. A super eye that makes unimportant people die and local real estate prices crash is cool but very much not comparable to a nuke that makes everyone die and local real estate disappear (I wonder, if Molly sets off a nuke, does her power make it Agg damage?)

4. Problem is, Ethniu's banter is the only IC word we have explaining her power level. Nobody bothers to explain, and maybe because they can't, why she's somehow the 900-pound gorilla in the room. Even if we can't take her word as absolute truth, it's the best we've got, and given how relevant her power is to the entire battle you'd figure Odin would've just told everyone that she'll run out of power soon if that were true. He'd definitely be one to know given his own circumstances, so him charging Ethniu while yelling Leeroy Jenkins! seems pretty, uh, odd if that were true.

Permit me to rephrase this:

The Eye Swords of the Cross isn't arent exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser sword that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun sword before.

I could do the same substitution with a bunch of other things, like Morgana's Athame, the Shroud of Turin, the Blackstaff, or the Spear of Destiny. And it would be similarly misleading.
Some items in this setting have conceptual weight, even though you can defend against their use.

Exactly! You'd notice when Michael shows up with Amoracchius in hand, standard procedure isn't for his enemies to throw in the towel and head home 'cause a Knight of the Cross popped up. Remember, most wielders of the Swords don't even survive a single night, with Jim saying 'that being a good person didn't necessarily mean you were up to the task of fighting demons.' Nicodemus killed over a hundred and fifty himself in traditional combat. Knights of the Cross are brave, are strong, and are almost all dead by very unnatural causes.

Many items in this setting have conceptual weight. This does not actually matter as much as it sounds, because being conceptually deadly to someone just means that you can actually hurt them. The Swords give the Knights a chance, but that's not a certainty of surviving against deadly, experienced, stronger, and faster enemies. The Eye let Ethniu take Mab off the field with a one-hit KO, but still had to recharge and ended up short-circuited by rain and knocked outta her head by Lara. The Noose gives Nicodemus the best defense we've ever seen, asides from the minor fact of being a weak point bigger than Achilles' heel; one question asking about his vulnerabilities and Molly could spread his weak point worldwide.

Once again, everyone's losing their minds over these legendary items of incredible power! Ignoring the fact that everyone knows how to deal with most of these things already (shoot the Knights from range, literally just dodge the Eye or wait for the cooldown to tag the boss, just grab the noose and fucking yank it, etc.)
 
Last edited:
Also, going over the checklist for what we want to do in the final lead-up:
1)Basic warplan is just to blob up and head for prisoner containment. All the mercs plus Molly's allies.

No point trying to go around the entire base looking for the Greater Akuma, just head for something they have to defend.
They'll have to meet us there, or on the way, or they are ceding us initiative; with Molly's anima active + ATB + Dresden + Michael, chances of a surprise ambush en route are low.

Only if/when we meet opposition does the rescue squad(s) split off and Molly switches to <<Exterminate>>


2)Yes to prebuff with BSM + VLE + Steel Skin + ATB + IPM; thats 2m, 2wp and 2 turns.
Going full shintai should probably wait until we actually see the greater akuma; there's an offchance he may not be aware that Molly has a warform, and if we can achieve surprise, we should take it.

Better than spooking him into an early retreat and then having to chase him into the NeverNever.
michael probably has what 5 dots in true faith for the white god?
Probably, or whatever the local equivalent is.

The problem with this view is that you are completely ignoring the massive and ongoing human cost of letting various monsters do whatever they want.

We have some (unreliable) numbers indicating that casualties from supernatural nasties are as high as one-third of a percent of total population per year in the USA alone and given the sheer numbers of monsters we see in the books those numbers are plausible. There isn't actually a choice between mass death and suffering or leaving the monsters alone, the choice is mass suffering/death in perpetuity or fight the monsters and maybe get less death.
1)???
The only numbers we ever get are speculation based on Dresden conflating ALL missing people numbers with dead people due to supernatural activity. Which is a thesis with very glaring problems.

Dude should have gotten more than his GED :V


2)Pay attention to the people in the setting.
It should be a sign that the Fellowship of St Giles, who detest the Red Court and have been fighting them for centuries, have not gone anywhere near the national governments for aid.

Its been repeatedly stated that Humanity's involvement is dangerous, and not just by the nonhumans. Dresden calls Humanity a nuclear option because humanity will fuck everything up for everyone, including themselves. Father Forthill states in the Warrior that the Ordo Malleus, the Inquisition, scaled back because they were killing shitloads of innocents.
"Hell's bells," I muttered. "The Inquisition."
Forthill grimaced. "The Inquisition has become the primary reason Malleus maintains itself in secrecy—and why we very seldom engage in direct action ourselves. It's all too easy to let power go to your head when you're certain God is on your side. The Inquisition, in many ways, attempted to bring our struggle into the light—and because of the situation it helped create, more innocent men and women died than throughout centuries of the most savage, supernatural depredation.
"We support the Knights of the Cross and do whatever we can to counsel and protect God's children against supernatural threats—the way we protected the girl you brought to me the year Michael's youngest was born. Now the order recruits people singly, after years of personal observation, and maintains the highest levels of personal, ethical integrity humanly possible." He turned to us, with a file folder in his hands. "But as you pointed out earlier, Harry, we're only human."
That may have caught minor nonhuman magicals, but did very little to actual nonmortal Powers; indeed, the Black Court grew in power during that period. Human talents otoh....

And like I pointed out, there are far worse things out there than the current supernatural crowd.
The Red Court are awful. The Red Court are much better than the avowed aims of the Fomor and, later, Ethniu. The Fomor are nowhere as horrible as the Old Ones who the Archive and the True Venatori have been fighting in the Oblivion War.

It is not an improvement if you wipe out your stomach bug with antibiotics and an infection of Clostridium difficile fills the vacuum in its place.
 
Last edited:
1)Basic warplan is just to blob up and head for prisoner containment. All the mercs plus Molly's allies.
Do not blob up when we know for fact that poison-clouds were a part of the plan to attack us and our friends.
Spread out a bit.

And like I pointed out, there are far worse things out there than the current supernatural crowd.
The Red Court are awful. The Red Court are much better than the avowed aims of the Fomor and, later, Ethniu. The Fomor are nowhere as horrible as the Old Ones who the Archive and the True Venatori have been fighting in the Oblivion War.

It is not an improvement if you wipe out your stomach bug with antibiotics and an infection of Clostridium difficile fills the vacuum in its place.
You still gotta take out the vampires though.

Sure, something worse might come through, but then you gotta take that on.

When the status quo is not acceptable, then you change it until it becomes such.
michael probably has what 5 dots in true faith for the white god?
Lower, but it might get boosted by Sword-shenenigans.
We've seen him roll True Faith before, it wasn't 5.
 
3)The Eye of Balor is a magic weapon with conceptual weight. Its effectiveness is not measured in biggatons.
Neither are most things or people in the setting.

Michael and Amoracchius killed a Dragon, but Amoracchius can be parried by common steel, and Michael was crippled by an AK. Mab can wreck the earth if she chooses, but she can also be paralysed by an iron projectile through the neck, and walk it off as soon as its removed. Fidelacchius killed a Lord of Outer Night, but it was broken by one guy, and its then-wielder died to a gunshot.
Essentially Dresden Files is full of glass cannons, where everyone who is anyone is capable of putting out vastly more damage than they can tank, and the survival strategy almost always boils down to "perfect or die" in direct confrontation.
 
Essentially Dresden Files is full of glass cannons, where everyone who is anyone is capable of putting out vastly more damage than they can tank, and the survival strategy almost always boils down to "perfect or die" in direct confrontation.
yeah though sometimes its not glass so much as a rock paper scissors game. With certain weaknesses, certain immunities, and certain time specific weakening.
 
That's the beauty of nuking your opposition first; if you wipe out everyone who can retaliate, well, nobody can retaliate.

That kind of reasoning is how you end with you and everyone you care about dead because of a nuclear apocalypse.

Thinking: *I can just nuke them all first!* is cool and all but as soon as you miss/get known for it or anything that will lead to the other side having time to launch their own nuke, suddenly everything's on fire and the earth's gone.

It becomes even worse when the opponents include load bearing bosses who'll release their nuke automatically when you kill them, and that's probably what'll happen if you try that one on the fae courts.

If you want to get rid of the problems, you need a better plan than that, and assume the consequences and repercussions, nobody's going to thank you if your *solution* ends up worse than the problem.

Yes, we should get rid of the red court, but we should do it in a way that won't simply lead to mass chaos, we have to stabilize things after, that's the part that leads to the *power vacuums* people fear, removing the bad elements is step one, you shouldn't forget about step two through ten.

The Eye's no Avada Kedavra is what I'm trying to say.

Avada Kedavra? The spell that is overhyped to hell and back for how weak it is? That can be deflected, only does one thing you can absolutely do with other spells and has to compete with a literal mind control that is absolutely perfect and undetectable? That spell?

Yeah, I agree, the Eye's way better, Avada Kedavra can't even destroy a single dumpster, after all.
 
1)???
The only numbers we ever get are speculation based on Dresden conflating ALL missing people numbers with dead people due to supernatural activity. Which is a thesis with very glaring problems.

Dude should have gotten more than his GED :V


2)Pay attention to the people in the setting.
It should be a sign that the Fellowship of St Giles, who detest the Red Court and have been fighting them for centuries, have not gone anywhere near the national governments for aid.

Its been repeatedly stated that Humanity's involvement is dangerous, and not just by the nonhumans. Dresden calls Humanity a nuclear option because humanity will fuck everything up for everyone, including themselves. Father Forthill states in the Warrior that the Ordo Malleus, the Inquisition, scaled back because they were killing shitloads of innocents.
There are large numbers of agressively predatory supernaturals (vampires, various fae, phobophagic spirits ect.) all over the place, quite a few of whom regard humans as ambulatory snacks and chew toys, the idea that the death toll isn't rather large blatantly contradicts what we see in the books.

The conviction that regular people will mess everything up is born from most groups being elitists who won't actually share important information because it may reduce their power. The White Council for instance claims total authority over all human magic users and runs around murdering anyone who breaks their laws, but doesn't actually put much effort into informing people of the laws and why they exist in the first place.

Literally in this quest we have Daedelus doing dumb shit because the Library of Congress refused to give them even basic knowledge about the supernatural world.

Regular people aren't equipped to deal with the supernatural because those who might give them the needed tools to do so adamantly refuse to share. With access to information on the supernatural they can probably make decision which aren't any dumber than a lot of the pre-existing humanish factions.

The fact that material based monster factions are so concerned about the masquerade indicates what they think is the likely result of mortals actually getting organised. Further as demonstrated by the fate of the Black Court the nastier supernatural factions can in fact be fucked over without the world suddenly ending for mysterious reasons.
 
Last edited:
I'm just gonna say unless we can mass take out demons from our hell over time we aren't going to be able to fill said power vacums period. This is a far future problem anyways though. Here's to hoping we can take out our demons/humans on mass over time instead of said demons being barred from reality.
 
Back
Top