- Location
- United States
[X] Artemis1992
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
COMMENTARY
-Yes you do need to be managed Murphy.
Everybody getting their first unfiltered look at the supernatural has. It reminds me that while Murphy has been SI for at least five years, she's only seen stuff like some fae and vampires. The shallower, more comprehensible end of the pool.
Harry kept her clear of running into Denarians last time they were in town.
I,m looking forward to her eating her words when she actually runs into beast mode akuma.
- Interesting comment from Gard.
Canon Gard didnt make it obvious who her ultimate boss was until several books hence; Dresden didnt figure it out until a month or so before Changes. So the fact she's being more obvious here is a distinct change of policy.
-Lol Harry. Just lol.
16 dice Charisma + Empathy roll, and Molly rolls one success. One.
If Empathy wasnt a Key ability, we'd have rolled -4 sux.
Once again, blonde women are Molly's social kryptonite. First Charity, now Murphy.
I vote we outlaw blonde hair.
You did just come from a fight when a demon-sworn vampire took on a twelve foot demon form and battled a warrior grinned in armor of sundered idols and crowned with unhallowed fire. That might make her more inclined to obliquely bring up gods.
- Location
- Germany
I don't think seeing people with more combat-power is going to change her fundamental understanding here.
She already knows there are things she can't deal with with a few guns.
To understand the issue at hand she might need to see what a Yomi-Wan Hell looks like, or a true army rather than these small warparties.
Fair point.You did just come from a fight when a demon-sworn vampire took on a twelve foot demon form and battled a warrior grinned in armor of sundered idols and crowned with unhallowed fire. That might make her more inclined to obliquely bring up gods.
Nah. She's walking into a confrontation with a Minister of Hell.
The closest thing she has come to heavy hitters previously were the fetches she saw in Arctis Tor, in the NeverNever; Papa Raith was already half-crippled when they met, she was lucky enough to not be the focus of Lara Raith, Harry kept her clear of the Denarians, and the loup-garou was a purely physical threat.
This is gonna leave a mark.
Even lesser akuma arent just physical threats; see the Shikome stat sheet about what they do to the minds of men and women who meet them, and how they burn their Willpower away until they find themselves doing irrational things.
Remember when we had to pass a Willpower roll at Souls Rest just to enter the place with a clear mind?
Im not going to be surprised if she has to pass a Delirium/Willpower check just on meeting it.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
There is a Demon Aspect for that, IIRC.
But regardless, I don't think a bigger or uglier or faster monster is going to change her view that much.
For a cop with a gun , what is really the difference between the Eldest Fetch and any greater monster?
They are all beyond her in practical terms and she lacks the senses and skills to even see that one is worse than the other.
It doesn't matter if she fires a bullet at an Elder Vampire, a Naagloshii or a Loup Garou, the non-result is the same and her ability to protect herself from the retaliatory strike as well.
So I think it would take something else than another gribbly to change her mind.
- Location
- washington
Uh I meant they can cause weather disasters in the transition worldwide ones fairly sure this was even a plot point. Also uh while often monstrous summer court is actually a lot nicer and a lot of their fae are benevolent just you know Dresden murdered titanias daughter and even if it was needed it was still their daughter.
1)Yes there is. I expect this one to have it.
2)The difference is not even getting to act.
There's a difference between acting and your actions being ineffective, and being too paralysed to act at all.
Or not even being aware that your will and awareness has been fucked with, like Gard's rune did to those Daedalus agents.
Thats where the really scary shit is for most people, even wizards.
In Worm terms, its the difference between a Brute effect, and a Master/Stranger effect.
Between Hookwolf, and either August Prince or Nice Guy.
And there's a reason Master/Strangers rate just under Thinkers as the scariest shit out there for a prepared intervention team.
From Gard's perspective, Murphy is likely very frustrating. Gard probably has the greatest understanding of what we are, or at least greatest "net understanding". Harry might have more insight due to soulgaze and our cooperation, but he's blinded by lack of proper education in divine matters, and his own preconceptions and biases. Gard is also the one with least amount of personal involvement with Murphy (with no involvement at that). I can see how she'd be offended on our behalf if anything.
I get that. I just meant that when we do have this discussion we won't necessarily be starting from "dumb kid playing games". Even if she doesn't agree with us she should at least be able to see our point.
Nice is exactly the wrong take away from the Summer fey, and an incredibly dangerous one at that.
Butcher describes the fey as elementals for components of the soul. Titania's own description of her mindset versus her sister's is one of emotion against cold logic.
Obviously it's more complicated than that, but one of the central axis of their existence is passion. This is not the same thing as being nice. Their motives are sometimes more understandable to humans, but they take it to Greek tragedy extremes.
Titania's grudge is a perfect example of this.
Nemesis had effectively already killed her daughter by the time Harry showed up. It's reasonable that she dislikes him for his role in it, but she hates him so much that she's willing to take shots she knows are self destructive. That she knows will hurt the people she has left if they go through. She does it anyway.
They have better PR, but Summer's greater passion is not the same thing as empathy for mortals and when they're caught up in it there's no reasoning with them.
Edit: errors
Last edited:
VOTE
[X] The location of the hostages and J
[X]STUNT: You catch yourself with an effort as words of the Lord's Prayer rise unbidden to your mind. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. With an effort you bring up J's face "This one was recruited under duress. How much duress, I dont know. Be careful." And while you're at it, you pull up the faces of the four bakemono you know, starting with the ten year old. "And these are mortals they put demons in. Just so you're aware of them."
RATIONALE
Im with @Yog on this. There's at least five arguments to be made for recovering J
1)The pragmatic argument is that he's a focus and intelligence source to be recovered and interrogated.
2)The empathic and moral argument is that its been demonstrated to really difficult for a mortal to resist an akuma with Obligation 3 or better, especially when the alternative is death, and that mortals, especially youth, make mistakes.
Something Molly is acutely aware of. Something Michael is aware of, given that Sanya used to be a Denarian.
Lead us not into temptation is a line in the Lord's Prayer for a reason.
And Molly is a Catholic girl who has her father as an Intimacy of Love/Admiration.
His principles very strongly inform her own.
3)The political argument is that recovering J is a win for Special Investigations, as someone who was believed dead but was instead kidnapped by assailants unknown and recovered by law enforcement.
Ditto if we recover the bakemono as well.
And they could probably use a win. Its been only four months since the Splattercon murders, and while the Red Room Murders have been taken over by the FBI, it still happened on their turf.
Giving SI a win makes it more likely they'll cooperate in the future. Not just Murphy, but SI as a unit.
4)The PR argument is that it improves Molly's reputation among those in the know in Chinatown and the general supernatural underground, which is likely to increase the chances of people talking to us next time something fucky is going on.
They're less likely to do so if they dont think we will make a good faith effort to recover their loved ones, or that we're cavalier about the welfare of people like themselves.
5)And the final, but not least, argument is that recovering him alive probably counts for bonus XP
===
Asking 2 Crown questions in this scene means at least one should proc Essence renewal(secrets of a supernatural enemy's base), so we should be net Essence neutral.
Its worth remembering that its not Mother Winter who has the bottled jars of Ebola and other, worse plagues on her shelf, its Mother Summer. Anyone who thinks Summer is safe is at risk for a rude, if brief, awakening.
[X] The location of the hostages and J
[X]STUNT: You catch yourself with an effort as words of the Lord's Prayer rise unbidden to your mind. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. With an effort you bring up J's face "This one was recruited under duress. How much duress, I dont know. Be careful." And while you're at it, you pull up the faces of the four bakemono you know, starting with the ten year old. "And these are mortals they put demons in. Just so you're aware of them."
RATIONALE
Im with @Yog on this. There's at least five arguments to be made for recovering J
1)The pragmatic argument is that he's a focus and intelligence source to be recovered and interrogated.
2)The empathic and moral argument is that its been demonstrated to really difficult for a mortal to resist an akuma with Obligation 3 or better, especially when the alternative is death, and that mortals, especially youth, make mistakes.
Something Molly is acutely aware of. Something Michael is aware of, given that Sanya used to be a Denarian.
Lead us not into temptation is a line in the Lord's Prayer for a reason.
And Molly is a Catholic girl who has her father as an Intimacy of Love/Admiration.
His principles very strongly inform her own.
3)The political argument is that recovering J is a win for Special Investigations, as someone who was believed dead but was instead kidnapped by assailants unknown and recovered by law enforcement.
Ditto if we recover the bakemono as well.
And they could probably use a win. Its been only four months since the Splattercon murders, and while the Red Room Murders have been taken over by the FBI, it still happened on their turf.
Giving SI a win makes it more likely they'll cooperate in the future. Not just Murphy, but SI as a unit.
4)The PR argument is that it improves Molly's reputation among those in the know in Chinatown and the general supernatural underground, which is likely to increase the chances of people talking to us next time something fucky is going on.
They're less likely to do so if they dont think we will make a good faith effort to recover their loved ones, or that we're cavalier about the welfare of people like themselves.
5)And the final, but not least, argument is that recovering him alive probably counts for bonus XP
===
Asking 2 Crown questions in this scene means at least one should proc Essence renewal(secrets of a supernatural enemy's base), so we should be net Essence neutral.
^^^
Its worth remembering that its not Mother Winter who has the bottled jars of Ebola and other, worse plagues on her shelf, its Mother Summer. Anyone who thinks Summer is safe is at risk for a rude, if brief, awakening.
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
The death of the Red King alone is a major blow; we've seen time and time again that the leaders of the supernatural factions constitute a major portion of their respective faction's strength. Without him to threaten Titania or Mab or even Merlin, even the Lords/Dukes/Counts will have trouble surviving against a heavyweight taking to the field. Much like how the Erlking and Odin, despite being higher-ups in the Winter Court, still did jack and squat against Ethniu, so too are the mid- and low-ranking vampires gonna fall like wheat against a serious push from their enemies once they lose their own leader. If we took out a major portion of the Lords as well, that's even more damage. Basically, while the sheer number of vampires is the main reason that the Red Court has an iron grip over South America, it's the heavyweights of the Court that actually matter in the face of supernatural opposition.
It won't be a killing blow, but it will be a fatal one (with some luck) once the other factions, like the Fomorians, take advantage (it may even work out better for us with more mooks alive to deal damage to the Fomorians as they clash).
And I assure you, I'm not gonna complain about the Red Court using WMDs. I haven't called foul on their whipping up a Bloodline Curse to kill the Blackstaff, and they really can't call foul on us when they're all fucking dead. That's the beauty of nuking your opposition first; if you wipe out everyone who can retaliate, well, nobody can retaliate. And by the time Molly could feasibly get her hands on a nuke, it'll take at least the Red King and several Lords to take her on in a fight; once the Red King is out of the picture, even if all 13 Lords somehow survived and tried to take vengeance, considering each one is supposedly only on par with Odin (and given Odin's piss-poor showing in Battle Ground) they're not gonna be much of a problem with the right allies on her side (13 vs 1 is not gonna end well, but that's what friends and minions are for).
So, we don't know how God's debuffing works. It's never explicitly explained whether or not Ethniu would weaken after blowing her load in Chicago, but given she was confident enough to take on everybody at the same time, I think it's safe to say it would last long enough for her to kill everyone. Doesn't matter if Ethniu weakens afterward when she's ready to execute everybody who thought they could scrap with her, and she probably had that capability. Otherwise, it really doesn't make sense for her to make an enemy out of the entire world and then once she's weaker go "haha, that was a prank guys! We still cool right?"
Which begs the question, once again, how the heck the Fomor got driven into the seas. Ethniu, as you said, doesn't give a shit about the world. Why wouldn't she just roll out 20 years ago when Mab tried to set up the Accords and steamroll Mab? It's pretty clear Mab can do a whole lotta nothing against Ethniu, given one single city block-busting laser took her out of the fight. Literally, one shot and she's done. I would make a joke about her stamina if it weren't already so pathetic. It didn't just disable her, the Eye of Balor knocked her on her ass to the point she face-planted straight into the dirt. If her Court and sister-Queen hadn't shown up to get their asses kicked, she would've gotten her ass kicked a second time, probably inside-out Malfeas-like given how much Ethniu hated her.
Also, Ethniu herself admits to being powered by the fear of children in contrast to Odin being powered by their faith and calls that out as part of the reason she could snap him like a KitKat bar. She sure didn't speak nor act like she was gonna weaken anytime soon. Not to mention none of those fighting her brought up the cheat code of just waiting Ethniu out until she weakens. Which, let's face it, no immortal shown in Battle Ground would've had an issue with letting Chicago burn if it meant they could fight Ethniu in a weaker state; Dresden and the White Council might've still fought, but they very much could not be compared to Odin or Erlking or Titania, and if Ethniu were to actually weaken to be jumpable by them, you bet your ass they would've sat out the fight and wait for a better time. That everybody jumped Ethniu regardless pretty heavily implies she wasn't gonna weaken anytime soon.
The worst part of all of this is just how weak everyone seems. Ethniu, who destroyed every immortal tried to face her head-on, had the firepower of a couple dozen pieces of modern artillery to take out Mab, and less than that to bitch-slap Titania at the height of her power.
Even the naagloshii turned out to be way weaker than thought. We now know nukes can kill them, but also that that's way overkill given Listens-to-Wind sent one fleeing by shapeshifting in Turncoat. Literally, beat the naagloshii like a percussion set with a bear's paws, mountain lion's claws and a fucking turtle's jaw.
Similarly, if Mab could soak a nuke, she wouldn't have damn near passed out blocking a city-block-buster, while on a super-unicorn boosting her magic. I'll put a nuclear weapon at way more conceptual an armament than a random mythological bauble that maybe ten million people know of; more people probably think LOTR when you say Balor than Irish myths. Mab might be more than a skinwalker, but she's shown her upper limits, and they're still pretty fucking low.
I don't know how much damage an absence of the Faerie Queens could do to the world, so I guess we'll have to wait until it actually happens or ask the Crown/Bob for clarification. But dire consequences have never stopped the Exalted from killing immortals and I don't think they're gonna stop Molly if push comes to shove!
And really, the morality of the Faerie Courts is relative; there's a heck of a lot more monsters that go bump in the night that'll take priority before the Courts, but said Courts are still alien and inhuman from the perspective of humanity. Mab is a monster and will get what's coming, but I will admit Titania for all her dislike for Dresden hasn't done anything worthy of death on-screen so far. Given the fey and fickle nature of the fae, I wouldn't be surprised if she's murdered a few humans here and there, but I'll withhold judgment for now (if we counted everyone who's been an ass to Harry as evil, that's a whole lotta evil, even if it's 'cause Harry's an ass to nearly everyone)
Also holy shit, I just noticed that Winter was kidnapping and training child soldiers in preparation for the Ultimate Showdown of Final Destiny in Battle Ground, which okay, Mab your fucking days are numbered. Hooooolllleeeey shit. That's up there with Lara murdering a bunch of Practitioners and getting away with it in terms of karma houdinis, given how Harry in Battle Ground sees the child soldiers and "isn't sure that's a bad thing".
Last edited:
- Location
- washington
I mean of course shes murdered some humans a lot of summer court are actually genuinely benevolent their more forces of nature than people though. Also all courts have exceptions. Also I'm not even saying that the courts would lack a new queen or something I'm saying the transition itself can have catastrophic affects like super tornadoes at minimum or a new ice age until its gets under control. Also you know you get less adept queens in control. Not to even fucking mention the roles are needed and when someone gets said mantle they'll slowly be shaped to be more in tune with said mantle replacing mab means your getting a new mab in like a decade at most. Given they'll in the process be much less good at their job of defending reality and you'll most likely temporarily have a maeve in control.
Also for block busting stuff you realize its not just a laser beam of that power its mystical in nature the same way the bullet that could kill darkseid is still merely a bullet it can kill a universe messing god?
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
Yeah, but you can block a bullet with a wall or a kevlar vest. Doesn't matter how mystical it is if it can be blocked with a couple buildings' worth of solid material, we've seen nothing that the Eye can do that a regular artillery barrage couldn't do. At a certain point you gotta stop twisting your head around to try and justify the super duper power of the mega laser, and just accept that what you see on screen is what it can do.
- Location
- washington
no? Cause dresden files is a bullshit setting with weird mystical bullshit. Its not a normal weapon and if wog it can kill a galaxy busting angel if they just stand still its not normal. Not everything is clear cut especially in dresden files.
Edit: Like we've got wog on this that angels can do that and that the weapon of balor can do that.
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
Normal or not, the Eye of Balor caps out at a couple buildings. Uriel could literally hide behind a city block and not do anything else and said laser couldn't do jack shit to him because it can't reach him. He doesn't have to use his power to block it or teleport out, literally just keep a city block between it and him and it might as well not exist for all the harm it can do to him.
Capacity to harm does not equate to capability to harm, in this case. Which is really weird, but that's just how Jim Butcher rolls I guess.
The eye and all of the stuff around it was stupid, but disagree with this specific line of reasoning.
When you've got a weapon that can kill the people who enforce physical law, like Dragon and Angel tier entities, measuring its strength based on how many mundane buildings it topples is pretty reductive.
For an example of another effect that would fail your test, Molly's perfect attack (Sinner Boiling Stare) can't so much as break a pane of glass.
It only triggers for entities that are capable of offending her. Mechanically you have to have a stamina score for it to even set the difficulty for the attack.
She can however immediately kill any mortal who takes even a single wound from it regardless of how many they have left. Nonhumans don't instantly die on a single point of damage, but they still take a heaping helping of Agg barring perfect defenses.
If you just saw it in use and judged from the fact that you can render yourself immune by hiding in a dumpster you'd reach a very misleading conclusion about its capabilities.
- Location
- washington
I'm unsure why people think the eye stuff is stupid its made pretty clear in dresden files the world is more than what we've previously seen bullshit things that exist do not have to be fully explained to us and they can just suddenly come around.
- Location
- Canada
Fair, but my original point was comparing modern weaponry to the Eye of Balor, wherein mundane nukes have an overwhelming edge in both area of effect and total damage. Mostly so that I can justify why a davy crockett is our key to showing everybody who's boss
The Eye is stupid in terms of what we seen from Battle Ground juxtaposing really hard with WoJ; the Eye isn't exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun before. The manner in which you can confront the Eye is more or less equivalent to trying to confront a tank as an infantryman; head-on it's suicide, but you have a lot more options than taking a tank-shell head-on.
Last edited:
- Location
- washington
hmm thats somewhat fair especially the first one. Though I'm feeling your thinking it stupid is different for why others think its stupid could be wrong though.Fair, but my original point was comparing modern weaponry to the Eye of Balor, wherein mundane nukes have an overwhelming edge in both area of effect and total damage. Mostly so that I can justify why a davy crockett is our key to showing everybody who's boss
The Eye is stupid in terms of what we seen from Battle Ground juxtaposing really hard with WoJ; the Eye isn't exactly presented as something incredible even though everyone reacts that way in-universe - it's literally just a super laser that you can dodge, block, get out of range of, and yet everyone's losing their minds as if they've never heard of an artillery gun before. The manner in which you can confront the Eye is more or less equivalent to trying to confront a tank as an infantryman; head-on it's suicide, but you have a lot more options than taking a tank-shell head-on.
Also for why the fomorians aren't top dog ethniu is one person and is still limited it seems or will be made more limited as time goes on. Also numbers do matter and many supernatural species simply don't have the numbers needed to just win? There are also from what it seems more powerful beings than mab just in the nevernever who can't even walk on earth properly without taking away all their effective power and go cosplaying as normies unless they take risks of course.
Like ethniu can only be in one place also shes clearly being manipulated by someone or something or somethings and someones. Wonder if we can steal the eye I mean there's at least decent chances the blackstaff is mother winters walking stick. It was stolen from someone powerful at least.
Last edited:
I'd say that there's a god chance that Molly can get access to weaponry superior to the Eye of Balor without a huge amount of difficulty.
And, to be fair, the White Court could as well. A modern bomber launching it's full set of cruise missiles could do better.
And that's only if you don't have time to depot something like a battery of precision guided artillery like a few HIMARs.
To be fair, this is the same in WoD, which is why the ExWoD book describes the Abrams tank as the true boss of WoD.
And, to be fair, the White Court could as well. A modern bomber launching it's full set of cruise missiles could do better.
And that's only if you don't have time to depot something like a battery of precision guided artillery like a few HIMARs.
To be fair, this is the same in WoD, which is why the ExWoD book describes the Abrams tank as the true boss of WoD.
Last edited:
- Location
- washington
I mean without difficulty almost definitely not can we at all probably. Uh also sure it can 'only' blast city blocks it can repeatedly do that and the fact it can actually kill uriel if he just stood still means it can kill top tier figures in the setting. So lets not discount its conceptual oomph. Like your underselling it quite a bit this is a god killing weapon.
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
If Uriel stood still. Which he and the rest of the top-tier figures never would. There's a reason super-speed is the best superpower, and that's because if you can't hit someone it doesn't matter how hard you hit.
Not to mention that it can be blocked as well, as Mab showed. The Eye's no Avada Kedavra is what I'm trying to say.
Last edited:
- Location
- washington
No debate that doesn't make it not impressive that just means there are plenty of ways to avoid it. Plus I mean there are charms to hold things I believe. But, thats aside the point if we ever got the opportunity to steal it well its not like we wouldn't steal it. But, its not like we invested in the weapon making shit and it'd be a pretty bad idea to change our build too much we'll never be great at everything after all.
I doubt we'd ever get that far into the story though thats what like 10 years from now? Also lets be honest as I've said quite a few times dp gave a god damn white court vampire a 7 dot ability I'm going to be unsurprised if the actual top tiers don't have far more bullshit things now. It wasn't even the head of their white court house.
Last edited: