Revlid's Social Hack (2e)
So, in the spirit of clearing my hard drive of all things 2e (or thereabouts), here's a tidied-up version of the social hack I've used (or provided), in one form or another, with the help of those involved, in a few games. It replaces the normal rules for Intimacies, Virtues, Motivations, Willpower, and Social Combat.

The games in question have been universally Infernal, so specific Abilities haven't mattered nearly as much - in fact, in at least two, Attributes and Abilities were so folded and trimmed that their total number was almost halved (as a result, some of the Ability assignments here are a bit off-the-cuff). Most corresponding changes to Charms are fairly intuitive, and were done on a case-by-case basis, but I could toss out some conversion rules if anyone actually needs them. Not sure how "balanced" this is, in practical terms, but it's worked out well enough.

Oh, uh, in lieu of Virtues and Willpower being used for mote pool calculations, I think we did something like every Infernal getting Personal (20), Peripheral (10 + [Essence x 10]). That was in at least one game. Might have used Principles or Willpower to calculate it differently in another one, but I can't recall.

...

WILLPOWER

All characters have a Willpower rating, which represents their determination, drive, and mental fitness. Those with low Willpower are weak-spirited and tend to cave or snap under pressure, while those with high Willpower are self-assured and able to endure dire circumstances without cracking. The average mortal has a Willpower rating somewhere between two and four, while most heroes have a rating between four and seven. Ratings of eight and above are extraordinarily rare, usually reserved for significant supernatural entities like Exalts.

Along with this "permanent" Willpower rating, they also have a pool of Willpower points (or "temporary Willpower"), representing their more immediate mental durability - even the mightiest wills can be ground down by extended trials. Characters cannot have more Willpower points than their Willpower rating. Willpower is distinct from Integrity, which represents a more active self-knowledge and practiced assurance in one's ideals.

Though there are some magic effects that actively drain their victim's Willpower - raksha are infamous for devouring human dreams to fuel their mad glamours - for the most part, Willpower points are expended by the character themselves, to throw off unwanted musings, restrain raging passions, or push themselves to greater heights. Some Charms include Willpower costs, and use of Sorcery can leave characters mentally exhausted.

Similarly, Willpower can be regained in a variety of ways. By far the most common is a full, uninterrupted night's sleep (or at least eight hours of total relaxation, such as successfully meditating or receiving a spa treatment), which restores points equal to their Integrity rating, minimum one, at its conclusion. Characters also receive a point of Willpower the whenever they make significant progress toward achieving or upholding one of their Principles rated at 3+, to a maximum of (higher of Integrity or 1) points per day. Finally, heroic characters may regain a point of Willpower in lieu of any mote reward for a stunt with a rating greater than one dot.

...

PRINCIPLES

Every character has Principles, which represent the more prominent aspects of their personality and mindset. They are rated 1-5, just like other traits, in order of the influence they have on that character.

• One-dot Principles are a brief urge or distraction, which rarely lasts more than a day - players can even apply these to their characters with stunts.
• Two-dot Principles are firm decisions or ongoing commitments, though they only tend to influence the character when they are directly relevant.
• Three-dot Principles are lifelong beliefs and fire-tested loyalties, which serve as cornerstones of a character's behaviour.
• Four-dot Principles are core motives and heroic convictions, rarely (if ever) shaken, which impact every aspect of that character's life.
• Five-dot Principles are a step even above that, a level of dedication normally reserved for survival instinct, or the obsessions of genuine madmen.

Principles should be clear and snappy summaries of whatever sentiment they represent - a character deeply enamoured with his bride might simply have "My Wife, My Love" as a three-dot Principle, while a mercenary whose life was built around her mastery of fencing might bear a four-dot Principle of "I Walk The Path Of The Sword", and someone who has been forced to monitor screaming children all morning might have a one-dot Principle of "Just Five Minutes Peace". Storytellers should communicate with their players to make sure there is a mutual understanding of what each Principle means, to avoid confusion later on.

This understanding of a Principle should include actions it supports, and actions it does not. The mercenary in the previous example might refuse to wield weapons other than a sword, consider non-martial work to be beneath her, or scorn those lacking in fighting skill. Principles should not be contextual in nature - "I Hate All My Enemies" is inappropriate, though "Never Forgive, Never Forget" or "I Hate All Barbarians" or "There Can Be No Compromise" convey similar ideas while being far more coherent as character traits.

Though the nature of Principles means that broad ones generally provide greater benefit than narrower ones, it is assumed that these will be balanced out by the need to roleplay them. A character with a Principle of "Freedom For All" is expected to work toward that Principle with all the intensity its rating suggests - if they do not, and the player does not respond to reminders, the Storyteller should reduce its rating to reflect its apparent importance. Similarly, while it might seem useful to have a high-rated Principle of "I Am Master Of My Own Destiny", such a character should be played as occupied with maintaining their own independence at any cost, likely to the detriment of their other relationships or ambitions.

Principles are increased and acquired in the same way as they are eroded and lost - through in-character development. A character can trivially pick up a one-dot Principle of interest or infatuation in someone else, before building up to true love over the course of several sessions or an extended period of downtime as a reflection of developments in the game. Players therefore have control over the nature of their characters - provided they actually live up to their statements in-game.

Characters should have no more than (Willpower + Integrity) different Principles - their player should remove Principles in excess of this whenever the character sleeps (or roughly at the end of each day, if they do not need to sleep), starting with their lowest-rated ones. Extras should generally have no more than one or two Principles, representing their role in the game. Most characters central to the narrative - such as all player characters - will average at about one or two four-dot Principles, two or three three-dot Principles, a handful of two-dot Principles, and a number of one-dot Principles that vary from scene to scene. This should be enough to portray their personality and values without significant omissions.

Since Principles represent the things that drive a character's likely actions and reactions, there are some near-universal examples. With few exceptions, all characters have a five-dot Principle toward staying alive, a three-dot Principle toward staying comfortable, a two-or-three dot Principle toward upholding their cultural mores, and so on; sexuality might also be represented in this way. These are character traits almost everyone shares just by virtue of being a person, so there is no real need to list them on your sheet, unless there's some particular twist or emphasis to your character's perspective on them.

This flexibility extends to listed Principles. If it becomes apparent mid-scene that your character really ought to have a certain Principle that they currently lack, talk to the Storyteller and amend your sheet. The Principles model the personality, rather than dictating it.

Of course, the Storyteller should reject such changes if they're not actually a response to an honest mistake; they are meant to help players avoid accidentally creating someone they don't want to play, not give them free reign to mutate their character's personality as it becomes convenient. A staunch pacifist cannot retroactively acquire a four-dot Principle of "Blood For The Blood God" just because her player thought it would be useful; instead, such a shift should take place in-character, a change in ideals that is roleplayed over multiple sessions or one large chunk of downtime. Similar restrictions and permissions apply to changing the rating of Principles.

Though players are expected to roleplay their character's Principles as a matter of course, they do have some mechanical backing. A character who wishes to take an action (including passive actions like "ignore the cruelty in front of me" or "give up this opportunity") which totally contradicts one or more of their Principles must roll a number of dice equal to the highest rated among those Principles. If he succeeds, he cannot take the action in question – his heart denies his hand. If he still wishes to proceed, he must "suppress" those Principles, by spending a point of Willpower. If the character has contradictory Principles that would force him to roll no matter what he does, that's tough luck on his part.

Suppressed Principles remain so for the rest of the day, and so can be freely acted against, though they still remain important to the character. This represents the mental strain of the character defying their own wishes for whatever reason - a Principle that is consistently suppressed should eventually have its rating reduced, or its context warped to suit whatever circumstances call for the character to hide it. Suppressing a one-dot Principle may even remove it entirely.

Principles that are not suppressed can be channeled to enhance any action (or static value) that directly supports them. Only one Principle can be channeled per action, and each Principle can only be channeled once per scene - though certain effects may "reset" a Principle, allowing them to be channeled again. Channeling costs a point of Willpower, and adds dice equal to the Principle's rating to the pool for that action. A channelled Principle costs two points of Willpower to suppress, not just one.

Example: The Sea-Sultan of the Jagged Isles has a four-dot Principle of "I Alone Rule The Isles", representing his fanatical need for control. When the local Realm ambassador politely requests that certain changes be made to the Isles' trade laws, purely for the benefit of the Scarlet Empire, the Sultan is bitterly aware that his fleet could be sundered by just one of the mighty jadeclad ships the Realm has set to patrol its regional interests.

If he acquiesces, ceding ground to fight another day, he is betraying the aforementioned Principle, and so must fail a four-dice roll (unlikely) or spend a point of Willpower - though he will not need to pay this cost again that day, if he finds himself compromising with other representatives at the trade summit. Alternatively, if he elects to argue the issue, he might spend a point of Willpower to channel that Principle, adding four dice to a Presence roll to emphasize his grip on his domain, or boosting his MDV against the ambassador's veiled intimidation.


...

SOCIAL INFLUENCE

Among the Attributes and Abilities available to characters are those that are primarily useful in a social context; the following section describes how to make use of those skills to persuade, inspire and coerce others. Though others may come in handy, these traits are Charisma (raw force of personality), Manipulation (natural talent for dissembling), Appearance (bearing and poise), Integrity (meditative self-awareness and judgement), Presence (skill at one-to-one persuasion), Performance (prowess at large-scale agitation), Linguistics (flair with working words), and Socialize (understanding of political situations).

Characters who wish to sway others can roll (Charisma + Presence or Performance) over the course of several minutes of social interaction. Presence is used when interacting with a single character, such as a cosy political chat or a vicious interrogation in a dank cell. Performance is used when interacting with multiple characters, whether priming troops for battle with a mighty speech or charging a whole room with the energy of your dance.

Successful social influence can do one of the things described below, chosen before making the roll.
• Create or remove a one-dot Principle in the target.
• Encourage the target to act on one of their Principles.
• Alter the nature of one of the target's Principles.
• Improve a supporting Principle or erode a contradictory one in the target.

The chosen effect must be appropriate to the influence's stunt - a speaker is unlikely to inspire lust by discussing the weather (without extensive innuendo, at least), nor lull someone into a sense of security by screaming profanity in their ear. Influence can be subtle, but the result must logically follow from what they are actually communicating. The speaker must target specific Principles for encouragement, alteration or removal - if their target possesses no such Principle, their influence falls on deaf (or at least, confused) ears.

Creating or removing a one-dot Principle is simple - the character simply acquires or loses the described Principle. They cannot remove (or regain) them of their own volition for the rest of the scene, and should work the change into their roleplay as usual.

Example: Mikail Edenlund is quietly nursing a drink at a social function, when an agent of the Emerald Hand approaches him. To keep him off-guard, she elects to distract him with desire, rolling (Charisma + Presence) as she breathily introduces herself and spends the next few minutes flirting. If her roll overcomes his Dodge MDV, Mikail gains a one-dot Principle representing his lust for her.

Encouraging a character to act on one of their Principles involves presenting some argument, appeal or lie to drive the target into action. The speaker's player describes some action that falls in line with the chosen Principle, and the target is driven to take that action, just as though they had succeeded on a Principle roll (this means that they may suppress that Principle to avoid doing so).

Example: The bitter rivalry between Tensi Tikigi and his brother is well-known through the Razor Moth Dojo, and eventually their master decides to test them. Calling Tensi to her quarters, she spends some time discussing his future at the dojo, and his prospects relative to his brother. Her provocation succeeds if her roll beats Tensi's MDV, and he must suppress that Principle or challenge his sibling to prove his superiority.

Changing the rating of a Principle involves twisting perceptions, calling problems to attention, or encouraging certain ideas and feelings. The speaker chooses a specific Principle to erode or reinforce, and reduces or increases its rating by one. The target's player should decide whether or not this alters the specifics of that Principle. A Principle can only be eroded if the target has another Principle of the same rating or higher that directly opposes it, or at least two opposing Principles no more than one dot lower. Similarly, a Principle can only be reinforced if the target has sufficient supporting Principles.

Alternatively, the speaker can alter the nature of the targeted Principle, shifting its context to a new one. This requires the same number of supporting or opposing Principles (as appropriate to the nature of the change), but cannot produce a change out of line with the target's general worldview. It fails if the new context contradicts any of the target's Principles rated 3+.

Any influence that would affect an existing Principle can be resisted by spending (threshold successes / 3) points of Willpower, to a minimum of one and a maximum of five.

Example: In preparation for usurping his father, Guay-Lin tries to erode the loyalty of his noble retainer, Sang-Jun. His loyalty is a 3-dot Principle, but he also has a 3-dot Principle representing his compassion for all living things. While discussing other matters of state, Guay-Lin shifts the subject to his father's taste for abusing his subjects. Sang-Jun may close his ears to what goes on in his lord's dungeons, but if Guay-Lin beats his MDV, the conflict between his ideals is sufficiently highlighted to force serious self-examination. He will have to spend Willpower, or reduce his Principle of loyalty by one dot.

To be successful, the successes of an influence roll must beat its target's Defence Value. Unlike physical attacks, mental influence is opposed by a Mental Defence Value, or MDV. If the target elects to ignore, brush off or flatly reject the influence, he uses his "Dodge" MDV, which is half his (Willpower + Integrity), rounded up. If he attempts to refute, belittle or actively defuse the influence, he uses his "Parry" MDV, which is half his (Manipulation + Presence), rounded up.

There are three common modifiers for MDVs. The first are normal contextual penalties, such as a lack of sleep or mind-addling drugs. The second are Principles, which have an effect on MDVs described further below. The third is Appearance, which represents the impact sheer manner can have. If a target has a higher Appearance than the speaker, he increases his MDV by an amount equal to the difference, to a maximum of three. If he has a lower Appearance, he instead reduces his MDV. In the case of social influence communicated through writing, Linguistics is used in place of Appearance.

Principles created, removed or altered by influence should be roleplayed as normal. If a drunkard is persuaded that Hong Zhin McSweeny over in the corner has been badmouthing his ancestry, his intoxicated anger may be only a fleeting one-dot Principle, potentially forgotten by morning, but he still needs to roleplay it, and needs to roll to avoid acting on it if the opportunity for a barfight comes up (indeed, he should be "awarded" bonus dice on the roll for his intoxicated state).

Unnatural mental influence can create more potent Principles, enforce triggered behaviour more harshly, or even cause people to act in the absence of Principles – such effects are detailed in each specific Charm.

...

PRINCIPLES AND MDV

Principles are fundamental to character interaction, both in the sense of roleplaying a character's motives, and in the mechanical effects of social skills. In the absence of mind-twisting magic, all social influence is based on creating or manipulating Principles - and even unnatural mental influence has an easier time working its enchantments if the target's Principles incline them toward it.

Characters subject to mental influence of any kind should consult their Principles. If the nature of the influence clashes with one or more of their Principles, they should add the highest rating among the opposing Principles directly to their MDV. If the influence supports one or more of their Principles, they should reduce their MDV by their highest-rated agreeable Principle. Both of these modifiers can apply at once, if a character has Principles that both support and oppose an attempt to influence him.

Even suppressed Principles modify a character's MDV in this way; though they may grit their teeth against injustice and blasphemy, their mind still silently churns. Similarly, appropriate Principles can be channelled to further improve the character's MDV, passive ideals surging up in their breast. Channelled Principles add directly to the character's MDV, but cannot be channelled if they are already improving the MDV.

A five-dot Principle has a further benefit - it allows the character to simply ignore any mental influence that would directly threaten it, provided they have even one point of Willpower remaining (no Willpower is spent - this simply represents their remaining capacity for mental resistance). They treat the influence as an Unacceptable Order. By default, every character is considered to have a five-dot Principle toward staying alive, their basic survival instinct driving them on. Other five-dot Principles are extremely rare, and almost always rooted in magic.

An observer can uncover another character's Principles with a (Wits + Investigation or Socialize) roll, trying to work out just how a given topic relates to them. Principles can only be deciphered to the extent that the scene allows; a Principle that has not so much as been mentioned is undetectable, while a cunning queen might note the twitch of concealed rage on a king's face when his rival is mentioned, and deduce that he fiercely hates him – though not necessarily why. The difficulty of this roll is equal to half the target's (Manipulation + Socialize), rounded up. This is reduced by two if the character is channelling their Principle, or is not trying to conceal their reaction, and increased by two if the character avoids actually acting on that Principle.

Long-term social interaction can be used to affect a character's Principles through an extended roll, allowing characters to determine the outcome of a series of diplomatic talks, weeks of interrogation sessions, or an extended courtship without needing to roleplay more than the gist of several weeks of interactions.

The speaker chooses any number of the normal effects they could apply with social influence - including those that rely on future social successes - and makes an extended roll, using the usual social pools. Meeting the cumulative difficulty applies one of the chosen effects, and carries any threshold successes over to a subsequent extended roll to apply the next, as the speaker builds on previous successes.

The difficulty at each interval is equal to the MDV bonus the target would derive from their Principles if this were a standard social roll, while the cumulative difficulty is equal to the target's (Integrity [minimum 1] x Willpower). Social manipulators are therefore encouraged to start with small concessions and work their way upward, weakening or isolating the target's opposing intimacies before moving on to their true goal.

Continuing this extended roll obviously relies on ongoing access to the character, and its interval depends on how regular these meetings are, as well as how much the target is willing to engage in them. Meeting two or three times each week for open discussion provides an interval of one week – more infrequent meetings, hostile targets, or obstructive circumstances would increase this, up to a maximum of a month (any longer, and mundane mental influence will be too scattered to have a noticeable long-term effect). A captive audience decreases the interval, but most often result in hostility that itself slows the process of persuasion. A botch represents a major faux pas, and halves the acquired successes, while missing an interval saps (target's Integrity) successes.

Storytellers should be aware that this system offers little interactivity for the target's player, unless both PCs are engaged in separate attempts to persuade each other, or the target gets to make an escape attempt after each interrogation session. As a result, it will often work best when used to model interactions with NPCs.
 
Last edited:
Altering the nature of a Principle involves twisting perceptions or calling discrepancies to attention in order to shift the way the target relates to a Principle. However, it can only produce changes in line with the target's existing worldview. The targeted Principle is replaced by an alternative version, described by the speaker. This version must directly support another of the target's equal-or-higher-rated Principles, or at least two other Principles rated no more than one dot lower, and cannot be opposed by any such Principles These other Principles must be appropriately included in the stunt.

...

Alternatively, the speaker can alter the nature of the targeted Principle, shifting its context to a new one. This requires the same number of supporting or opposing Principles (as appropriate to the nature of the change), but cannot produce a change out of line with the target's general worldview. It fails if the new context contradicts any of the target's Principles rated 3+.
These seem to be talking about doing the same thing. If they aren't, can you clarify the different between shifting the way the target relates to a Principle and shifting its context?
To be successful, the successes of an influence roll must beat its target's Defence Value. Unlike physical attacks, mental influence is opposed by a Mental Defence Value, or MDV. If the target elects to ignore, brush off or flatly reject the influence, he uses his "Dodge" MDV, which is half his (Willpower + Integrity), rounded up. If he attempts to refute, belittle or actively defuse the influence, he uses his "Parry" MDV, which is half his (Manipulation + Presence), rounded up.
This appears to keep the same disparity between DMDV and PMDV that 2e had, where the max pool for the former is 15​/2​ = 8, whereas the max pool for the latter is only 10​/2​ = 5. Is this an intentional way of making it easier to just stonewall someone and not listen to them than to challenge their ideas, or would it be better to have the DMDV be half (Willpower/2+Integrity)? Or PMDV be half (Manipulation+Charisma+Presence) or some such, I suppose.

That's about it for nitpicks. I do like how it gives two (and a half) general ways of persuading someone to do something they don't want to do:
a) The slow way. Gently turn other Principles against the opposing one to erode their resistance and reduce their MDV boost. Use the proud king's respect for his cousin to get him to abdicate in her favour, rather than just trying to convince him to throw away the crown.
b) The slower way. If they don't have any exploitable Principles, make a 1-dot one and build it up until you can use it. Make the extremist freedom fighter fall in love with a beautiful young man, and have him plead with his lover to cease his terrorism.
c) The fast way. Threaten to do something horrible to one of their higher-rated Principles if they don't do what they're told. Take the genius scientist's 6-year old son hostage and make it clear that you'll kill the boy unless he smuggles a sample of the virus out of his labs for you.

In true Exalted fashion, the fast way is quicker, easier, and more efficient. It is also likely to make you a terrible person and, crucially, often solves problems by turning them into new kinds of problem. Because, y'know. Threatening to kill someone's loved ones is not going to endear them to you, so now you have a new enemy.

Exalted problem solving! Turning problems into different problems since the end of the Age of Glories! :D
 
These seem to be talking about doing the same thing. If they aren't, can you clarify the different between shifting the way the target relates to a Principle and shifting its context?
Whoops! That's a repeat paragraph. Removed.

This appears to keep the same disparity between DMDV and PMDV that 2e had, where the max pool for the former is 15​/2​ = 8, whereas the max pool for the latter is only 10​/2​ = 5. Is this an intentional way of making it easier to just stonewall someone and not listen to them than to challenge their ideas, or would it be better to have the DMDV be half (Willpower/2+Integrity)? Or PMDV be half (Manipulation+Charisma+Presence) or some such, I suppose.
Partly it's because Integrity has relatively few mundane uses outside of resisting mental influence and regenerating Willpower, while Presence has mundane uses in social "attack" as well as "defense", and other uses outside of actual social influence. Making Integrity better at what it does gives more of an incentive to pick it up as an actual skill. It's the same logic I imagine was employed in making Dodge better than Parry (barring absurd equipment stacking) in physical combat, including their perfect defense costs.

Partly because it's just a lot simpler, and hey, at least I removed (Essence) from the equation, as 2e had it.

A nWoD-style "Power, Finesse, Resistance" split of Attributes would allow Willpower to become the mental Resistance trait... but that's a much deeper system restructuring than this one, which leaves the foundations intact even as it strips out and replaces most of the social stuff. At that point I might as well write my own system.

That's about it for nitpicks. I do like how it gives two (and a half) general ways of persuading someone to do something they don't want to do:
a) The slow way. Gently turn other Principles against the opposing one to erode their resistance and reduce their MDV boost. Use the proud king's respect for his cousin to get him to abdicate in her favour, rather than just trying to convince him to throw away the crown.
b) The slower way. If they don't have any exploitable Principles, make a 1-dot one and build it up until you can use it. Make the extremist freedom fighter fall in love with a beautiful young man, and have him plead with his lover to cease his terrorism.
c) The fast way. Threaten to do something horrible to one of their higher-rated Principles if they don't do what they're told. Take the genius scientist's 6-year old son hostage and make it clear that you'll kill the boy unless he smuggles a sample of the virus out of his labs for you.
d) The really fast way. Infuse your words with mind-searing power, carving your desires into the soft malleability of merely mortal minds. Gather an army of slavishly devoted cultists, who but a week ago had been humble peasants and devout monks. When the Wyld Hunt arrives, they will witness corrupted souls praising a delusional sun-demon, and know that all the dire tales of the Stolen God-Flame are true.
 
Last edited:
How could Yahweh be more powerful than Theion, when he is clearly a Raksha(After all, He is weak to Chariots of Iron)? ;)
Okay, this isn't about Theion anymore. This is about people taking one clause of one sentence of one chapter of a whole epic story out of context. You (or another fan) would deliver the same level of response against someone saying that Kamina is a child-abuser because all they saw was him punching Simon in the face, or that Thor was a transvestite because of that one time he had to wear a wedding dress to get his hammer back from the giants.

So I want absolutely no shit for this, just because I believe in God more than you might believe in Kamina or Thor.

That said, I'm tired of people being so smugly clever when they talk about God and iron chariots. Especially since I suspect that most people who mention it are only repeating what they heard others say, rather than actually reading the source material.

Well, here's some more source material. Deborah, the current judge of Israel, is directing the leader of her people's forces to fight against Sisera, whose country has been oppressing them.

Judges 4:13-16
And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, "Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee?" So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.

So, God's people are clearly able to defeat iron chariots when God is with them. The question is whether God is always willing to give them that authority.

Here is God's promise in Joshua 17:18: "But the mountain country shall be yours. Although it is wooded, you shall cut it down, and its farthest extent shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots and are strong."

God was saying, "Their iron chariots are nothing to me. So long as I'm with you, you will drive them out of even the furthest extent of the mountain country." But he didn't promise them any more than that. Like, say, the lowlands beyond that territory.

Judges 1:19: "So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron."

Some translations phrase "mountain country" as "hill country" and "lowlands" as "plains", but it should still be clear that they are two very different types of terrain. The Israelites got their promised victory thanks to God's blessing, but their own strength proved insufficient to take more than what was promised to them.

In fact, that defeat was not the only one recorded in Chapter 1 of Judges. There are a long list of failures and incomplete victories that would nettle the Israelites for as long as they lived in the land they were told to conquer. Chapter 2 begins with an angel of the lord appearing to the Israelites, telling them that the reason for their spotty record was because they rebelled against God. Because they did not obey him by destroying the pagan altars and idols of the people they were driving out, God ceased to drive those people out for the Israelites.

Which is also how Sisera and his men and their 900 iron chariots were even able to become a problem. The entire recurring theme of Judges is that God's people would rebel against him, God would withdraw his blessing of protection (as he promised he would do, as surely as he promised to grant it when they obeyed), and the peoples whom the Israelites failed to kill would rise up and oppress them.

Then the people would return to God, receive his blessing, destroy their current tormentors, and then a generation later go right back to rebelling again. The pattern repeats for the entire book, and then for basically every book after that.

In fact, that's the whole story of the Bible in a nutshell: God gives man something and tells him how to take care of it, man abuses it, man feels the consequences, man cries out for help, God fixes things.
 
Last edited:

If you wish to start a thread discussing your interpretation of Biblical verse, then by all means feel free to do so. However, if you look at the title of this thread, you will see that it does not read "Sunder the Gold discusses the Bible", but rather "General Exalted Thread". A short post might have been an acceptable digression given that someone else already raised the subject. Posting a short essay the entirety of which is severely off-topic, however, is not acceptable, and is in violation of your agreement to abide by our Community Compact.

On this occasion, I'm going to assume this was mistake born out of ignorance, and let you off with a warning. I also have edited in a quote box around your post, it's still there, but it will no longer fill up an entire page.

Please don't do this again.

EDIT:

Also, I repeat: If someone had made such a bogus claim about your favorite fictional character or real-life celebrity, you would get to say your piece in response without anyone getting on your case.

This is untrue. If someone had made a crack in a GURPS thread about how a ten year old with an AK-47 could defeat a Charizard, and an enraged Pokemon fan had posted an essay of a similar length to yours in response, then they would also be warned or infracted. The rules are not complicated; abide by them.
 
Last edited:
I also have edited in a quote box around your post, it's still there, but it will no longer fill up an entire page.
I concede to the spirit of this edit, but feel that putting in a quotation box would perhaps render authorship unclear, and so I have instead placed the offending text within spoiler tags (which has the advantage of shrinking its page-space up even further).

I have left visible the less offensive part of my post, as that provides the proper warning for the kind of message contained within the spoiler tags.

I hope this counter-edit is acceptable and is not seen as a challenge against your authority.
 
On a completely different note.

If the leaked bits of charms that I have seen are real, then I am somewhat disappointed that it looks like Wyld Shaping Technique is going to remain a Solar charm rather than being put into Sorcery.
 
On a completely different note.

If the leaked bits of charms that I have seen are real, then I am somewhat disappointed that it looks like Wyld Shaping Technique is going to remain a Solar charm rather than being put into Sorcery.
Isn't WST a neccessary bit of Charm-tech for Solars? I mean, they need to be able to conquer the Wyld, and not everyone wants to grab Sorcery.
 
This is untrue. If someone had made a crack in a GURPS thread about how a ten year old with an AK-47 could defeat a Charizard, and an enraged Pokemon fan had posted an essay of a similar length to yours in response, then they would also be warned or infracted. The rules are not complicated; abide by them.
What if they used the GURPS rules to demonstrate this?


On a completely different note.

If the leaked bits of charms that I have seen are real, then I am somewhat disappointed that it looks like Wyld Shaping Technique is going to remain a Solar charm rather than being put into Sorcery.
Yeah, thinking about it, I'd much rather have WST be Sorcery rather than a Charm.
 
:confused:
Uhm... Sorry to have offended you, Sunder the Gold? I was pretty sure it was obvious that i was joking, and i read only the part of the judges where the jew were hampered by the Chariots.

Anyway, The Leak(Which i hadn't read) just made me remember that i need to stop procastinating everything till the end of time, and actually start doing things: I was planning some time ago a La-Mulana inspired Splat, and i need a bit of Inspiration: can someone please point me to some legends talking about creation of multiple intelligent races, and other about nice ancient gods?
 
Isn't WST a neccessary bit of Charm-tech for Solars? I mean, they need to be able to conquer the Wyld, and not everyone wants to grab Sorcery.
No, not really. If you want to do large-scale Shaping magic to reclaim the Wyld? Then learn Adamant Circle Sorcery. That's what Sorcery is all about, it gives a good reason for it to be solely in the hands of Solars and Primordials, and frankly? Justify to me why it should be a Solar Charm. Solar Charms are based on paramount mortal ability; supernatural excellence in Sailing or Melee or Performing. How does pulling reality from the raw incoherent chaos of the Wyld stem from being a really good Lore-master? How is it based in any human skill? Solars have no inherent right to have WST be Charmtech, and if you want to conquer the Wyld without putting in the work to learn Sorcery, whose thematics are all about large-scale Shaping and infrastructure? Tough.
 
I would say that it should belong into Sorcery as it is at its core simply large scale shaping of a malleable surrounding. Make it Celestial circle if you want to prevent DB from accessing it as they having it might lead to more issues.
Edit: And ninjad by the maiden of blades.
 
Lunars more so, imo, because their patron is all about reaching perfection through change. Solars have the theme perfection of mortal capability, Lunars should have the theme of perfection through changing their capabilities, much like how UCS and Luna have that dynamic.
 
I would say that it should belong into Sorcery as it is at its core simply large scale shaping of a malleable surrounding. Make it Celestial circle if you want to prevent DB from accessing it as they having it might lead to more issues.
Edit: And ninjad by the maiden of blades.
No, full-scale WST should be Adamant. Lesser Shaping, temporary calcification of the Wyld, sure. But permanent reclamation of the Wyld for Creation? No, I'm happy with that being the highest circle of Sorcery, and it enforces the decay of Creation after the Usurpation, with the Lunars and Sidereals unable to revert it.
 
If anyone should have shaping in their native charmset it would be infernals and lunars.

No. Solars most certainly do need to have that capacity if anyone apart from Primordials has it, because "fuck you I'm a god king I'm taking your land and making it mine" is something which is most certainly in their thematics, and that's what it fundamentally is; it's an act of imperialism. A Lunar version would involve coaxing the Wyld into being what you want it to be, out of all the things it could be. Solars? FUCK YOU WYLD BE WHAT I SAY AND THEN DON'T YOU DARE CHANGE ANY MORE YOU FUCKER.

In that, they really very much show how they take after their grandfather.

But it's better suited as ACS, not least because that means Solars are going "FUCK YOU PRIMORDIALS WE CAN MAKE WORLDS TOO DOING WHAT YOU DID, BITCHES".

I feel it helps, when writing Solar Charms, to make sure the core thematic statement can be shouted out loudly, usually while gesturing at your opponent with your middle fingers. Solar Charms which lack that "fuck you, imma gonna do what I want" [1] core idea usually aren't that great as Solar Charms.

[1] This is also the core thematic statement of Solar Integrity.
 
What if they used the GURPS rules to demonstrate this?
I'm pretty sure it would be on-topic, but then the thread would have a six page argument about what ammo is going the the AK-47, what the kid's Guns(Rifle) TL/7 skill is, whether Charizard has Flight(Winged) or Flight (Small Wings), and other minutae.

Now, as for Shaping as part of a native charmset, I'm okay with certain caveats. Shaping is never applied to a self-targeting defense with another Flaw of Invulnerability. It is perfectly fine to have the fact that the defense is Shaping be its flaw, or maybe it is a charm designed to defend someone else. Something is Shaping if it affects others and has no conventional defense. Frex, let's imagine a charm that turns the targets bones to fire. If it is supplemental on an attack, it can be blocked or dodged, likewise if it is a regular attack. If it is Shaping, it means that it can't be blocked or dodged. It would be like trying to use a perfect parry against suffocation*.

*By RAW and RAI, you actually can do this, but you need to stunt something that can block the unblockable and pay the mote cost every time.
 
No, not really. If you want to do large-scale Shaping magic to reclaim the Wyld? Then learn Adamant Circle Sorcery. That's what Sorcery is all about, it gives a good reason for it to be solely in the hands of Solars and Primordials, and frankly? Justify to me why it should be a Solar Charm. Solar Charms are based on paramount mortal ability; supernatural excellence in Sailing or Melee or Performing. How does pulling reality from the raw incoherent chaos of the Wyld stem from being a really good Lore-master? How is it based in any human skill? Solars have no inherent right to have WST be Charmtech, and if you want to conquer the Wyld without putting in the work to learn Sorcery, whose thematics are all about large-scale Shaping and infrastructure? Tough.

Personally, I've always seen the logic behind WST as a Lore Charm as "I know how Creation works, I know how it's put together, therefore I make more of it if I just have the necessary raw materials(Wyld)."

Granted, I would prefer it as Sorcery, but that's simple enough to homebrew.
 
Personally, I've always seen the logic behind WST as a Lore Charm as "I know how Creation works, I know how it's put together, therefore I make more of it if I just have the necessary raw materials(Wyld)."
That is indeed the logic behind Wyld-Shaping Technique, as the devs have explained it.

Personally, I find that makes no particular sense, as thaumaturgy and sorcery and essence-sight and everything else you'd use to understand "how Creation works" is in Occult, which usually fills the role of a "Science" skill in Creation. When it's not being used as "Socialize, but for gods", anyway.

A train of logic that I find more coherent is the idea of Wyld-Shaping Technique being exploration and documentation writ large, just as the Wyld is the unmarked portions of the map made literally unformed. As a Solar, you journey into these mad, barbarian and unfixed places, regions with no law or civilization - at least, no proper civilization, ho ho ho - and you tell them How Things Should Be. You banish uncertainty, and draw up maps, and write up histories that will form the understanding of that place for generations, whether they're founded in "fact" or not. You crystallize chaos through formal definition, an eternal observer collapsing its foolish permutations into a single state.

Hence it's in Lore, which includes history and geography and anthropology in its purview.

Chaos-Repelling Pattern
Truth is order, and so is anathema to madness. Embodying the wisdom of law, the Solar shines with a light that causes the world around him to be treated as part of Creation for all purposes.

Wyld-Banishing Technique
The Solar determines the world, pressing the golden seal of law and the dagger of true knowledge against the unsubstantiated absurdities of Chaos. An area of Wyld-tainted land miles across is cleansed into pure Creation, and any of its features that contravene the world's laws cease to function as such.

Filling the Map's Corners
The Lawgiver has the authority to scribe the true history and shape of the world. The protestations of shapeless natives matter not. She can now use the previous technique to reshape the tainted region, dictating its geography, climate and even apparent history as she pleases.
 
Last edited:
Personally, I find that makes no particular sense, as thaumaturgy and sorcery and essence-sight and everything else you'd use to understand "how Creation works" is in Occult, which usually fills the role of a "Science" skill in Creation. When it's not being used as "Socialize, but for gods", anyway.

There may have been a little trouble with categorizing things due to having to split stuff into exactly 25 skills due to needing to keep thematic numerology.

Maybe.
 
So, since Holden said that they're not going to change stuff that's been spoiled just because it was spoiled (even considering that it was out-of-date information anyway), I feel comfortable enough bringing up the Twilight anima powers that someone posted in that 4chan thread (and that wasn't deleted when the linked spoilers were neutered).

The first one was basically the old Twilight anima power; become Tankier by spending motes or letting your anima flare ("bonfire" may now be a proper term in the new rules regarding anima flare levels).

The second one is kind of like the spirit Charm, Hurry Home, but without the hurrying. 10m, 1wp, and stand completely still for one round of combat -- if you don't get hit, you vanish from existence until the next sunset, and reappear at the closest "place of power" (temple, demense, manse, sanctum gate, etc) or whichever one within a ten mile radius of where you disappeared.

Third, spend 10m and touch a spirit, making it a (temporary?) Familiar, and thus a valid target for Solar Survival Familiar Charms.


Thoughts?
 
The second power will probably be really good for using Wyld Shaping Technique after you've pissed off every Fae within a 200 mile radius.
 
Back
Top