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General Exalted Thread

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GilliamYaeger said:
Opening Solars up to cause that kind of story by just being there at the right time seems pretty neat. Its the kind of stuff Heroic Mortals are made of.
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While that is one possible use of stealth-oath-binding, the vast majority of them are less "create heroic mortal" and more "be a jackass genie".

Recall that even the power expressly designed to let you be a jackass genie in 2e required the target's subconscious assent to your "oath", and made it clear to them that there would be consequences to breaking it. Similarly, the Eclipse Oath made it clear that (anima flare aside) everyone involved was very aware that Heaven's wrath would fall upon them if they broke their word.

Contrast this, which allows you to do things like overhear someone saying "I'll be back in a moment, I'm just going to the toilet" and Eclipse Oath them without anyone knowing. If they're not really going to the toilet, or they try to slip away afterwards, or they take too long to return... bam, Storyteller-adjudicated disaster strikes. This gets worse when you've got Judge's Ear Technique (to which I assume there will be a roughly analogous effect in 3e), where you can just toss out an Eclipse Oath on detecting any untruth in a statement of intent, leaving your victim none the wiser to the fact that they are about to be rendered impotent or have their hair spontaneously combust or suffer a stroke or see their business fail or whatever it is the Storyteller comes up with.

Sealing a covenant means nothing if you're the only one who knows there even is a covenant.

Not really a huge fan of the entirely Storyteller-adjudicated punishment either (as a player or an ST), but hopefully there'll be some examples in the actual book.
 
Meh. Rather than a teleportation power, why not give Twilights the ability to, once a day, replenish part of their Essence pool by tapping into a nearby place of power or Essence wellspring they have consecrated?

Also, rather than a blanket weak shield, I'd rather have them limited to using a strong "force field" only during phases of combat during which they have not actively assaulted someone (barring counterattacks, but including things like ordering summons/automata to attack, triggering spells or remote-controlled offensive devices)*, but instead used their Caste abilities (Healing a comrade, repairing stuff, casting a non-offensive spell).

* Note that this explicitely wouldn't apply to leading opponents into an ambush with pitfalls and proximity-trigger traps. Or having demons with previous bodyguarding or intruder-smashing (in a place that you legitimately "own") directives materialize. It pays to fight smart and prepared.

The comforting power of the Zenith caste reminds me of Femto/Griffith's soul shepherding trick in recent Berserk.
 
About the leaked Anima Powers: if i remember right, the Night ones were already going to be rewritten.
 
The Nomad said:
Also, rather than a blanket weak shield, I'd rather have them limited to using a strong "force field" only during phases of combat during which they have not actively assaulted someone (barring counterattacks, but including things like ordering summons/automata to attack, triggering spells or remote-controlled offensive devices)*, but instead used their Caste abilities (Healing a comrade, repairing stuff, casting a non-offensive spell).
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I don't see why they should have a forcefield at all. Twilights are not a direct combat class. If you want to be a direct combatant, play a Dawn or Night or whatever. If you want combat skills as a Twilight, buy them. If you don't want to buy them, avoid combat (or have bodyguards or fighty Circlemates).

Giving a non-combat class a combat power is kind of defeating the point of them being a non-combat class.
 
Revlid said:
While that is one possible use of stealth-oath-binding, the vast majority of them are less "create heroic mortal" and more "be a jackass genie".

Recall that even the power expressly designed to let you be a jackass genie in 2e required the target's subconscious assent to your "oath", and made it clear to them that there would be consequences to breaking it. Similarly, the Eclipse Oath made it clear that (anima flare aside) everyone involved was very aware that Heaven's wrath would fall upon them if they broke their word.

Contrast this, which allows you to do things like overhear someone saying "I'll be back in a moment, I'm just going to the toilet" and Eclipse Oath them without anyone knowing. If they're not really going to the toilet, or they try to slip away afterwards, or they take too long to return... bam, Storyteller-adjudicated disaster strikes. This gets worse when you've got Judge's Ear Technique (to which I assume there will be a roughly analogous effect in 3e), where you can just toss out an Eclipse Oath on detecting any untruth in a statement of intent, leaving your victim none the wiser to the fact that they are about to be rendered impotent or have their hair spontaneously combust or suffer a stroke or see their business fail or whatever it is the Storyteller comes up with.

Sealing a covenant means nothing if you're the only one who knows there even is a covenant.

Not really a huge fan of the entirely Storyteller-adjudicated punishment either (as a player or an ST), but hopefully there'll be some examples in the actual book.
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While there is certainly plenty of potential for abuse if an Eclipse can forcibly and undetectably sanctify a pact he observes, it's not quite that easy. The above situation involves neither an oath nor a pact. There is simply nothing to for an Eclipse to sanctify.

I think that anyone who would break a sanctified oath should be subtly made to understand the doom that they bring upon themselves. The purpose is to make an oath unbreakable, not to punish someone for breaking it. It should not be possible to do unintentionally or unaware.
 
In First Edition, the Twilight Anima was given a Charm boosting their resilience for two main reasons. The first is so that they have a minimum non-Charm (non-Charm due to combo rules) means of increasing their resilience while casting a spell in a fight or dipping their hands in molten lava to forge an Artifact, so as to not leave them completely defenseless (recall that at the time, "Defend Other" was not a thing).

The second and main reason was to shatter the stereotype of "non-combat classes." There are no classes; Dawns can be sorcerers, Twilights can be fighters, Zeniths can be spies. While the Ability system obviously already allow for that, the Twilight Anima was a matter of influencing perception, to start right off the gate with a big neon sign reading "yes, this is a combat power on the thinker 'class.' Stop thinking of Castes as classes."

Obviously, this did not actually work - for one the mechanical implementation of the Anima was wonky (making Twilights the most powerful combat Caste in 2.0, infamously), and furthermore it was IIRC their only Anima power, which made them look like they were not a thinker Caste at all rather than making them a "thinker Caste that breaks the boxes of classes." 2.5 threw the baby with the bathwater and drenched itself in the process by dropping the original angle entirely and giving them a "thinky" anima power that barely worked.

Ex3 is solving this problem by returning to the original intent of the 1e Twilight Anima, implementing it better, and then giving them other powers that do suit their Caste imagery, combining the whole into a portrait of a Caste that is 1) familiar with the occult and the world of spirits to the point of having demons and elementals in thrall, 2) emulating classic sorcerer/spirit archetypes, 3) also kicks ass in combat.

The teleporting power is an emulation of many classic scenes of fiction where a wise mentor figure vanishes at opportune times. It's Obi-Wan Kenobi disappearing as he is struck by Vader, only instead of dying he is still alive and recovering elsewhere. It's Gandalf falling in the depths of the Moria and reappearing in an ancient magical forest. For god's sake - it's Jesus of Nazareth being stabbed with a spear, then disappearing from his tomb and reappearing to his disciples three days later.

It also ties the Twilight deeply to places of powers, incentivizing them to locate, identify, and take control of the various places of power in whichever area they operate so as to facilitate the use of their escape power - the first thing a Twilight wants to do upon arriving in a new region is gathering information on the various Demesnes and places of power therein so they know what to expect should they use their Anima, and then probably to make deals and arrangements with the people who control them to ensure their safety upon arrival. Or, if they roll that way, to kill them and take over. This is one of the many elements disincentivizing murderhoboism and encouraging players to interact with and connect their characters to the setting, which is good.

As for this Hardness clause making Twilights a better choice for combat than Dawns... Look, I get it. You don't have the full system. The Dawn Anima is very much tied to the specific abstract mechanics of combat. It's all right: you don't know and you're working from wild guesses and assumptions. It's okay.

The Dawn Caste is terrifying.
 
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Aleph said:
I don't see why they should have a forcefield at all. Twilights are not a direct combat class. If you want to be a direct combatant, play a Dawn or Night or whatever. If you want combat skills as a Twilight, buy them. If you don't want to buy them, avoid combat (or have bodyguards or fighty Circlemates).

Giving a non-combat class a combat power is kind of defeating the point of them being a non-combat class.
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I vehemently disagree with your classification of Twilights as "non-combat class" (WTF has this to do with Exalted?). All Solars, and all Exalted in a general sense, are 'warriors'. They were made to topple the Primordials from their lofty thrones, each in their own way, but they are born for strife. They should be able to survive on the battlefield even if they aren't frontline combatants.
Twilights favor applying scholarly and crafting skills to problems, which can include combat (not in the "shoot lazors with Lorz" or "I cast fireball" sense - there is Archery and Melee and Brawl for that) or hazardous conditions (such as repairing a ship's hull in the middle of a storm, underwater, surrounded by hungry siakals). They are the ones most likely to perform battlefield surgery, emergency repairs and engineering/demolition, understanding an enemy's Artifacts etc. Increasing ther survability in those support roles without giving them an unwarranted edge on dedicated warriors or crippling their development in their specialty sounds like a good idea ot me.

A little help to improve survival in those circumstances makes sense, and you can shoehorn it with Twilight Abilities. Such as Crafting a momentary wall of Essence to protect oneself, modelizing the trajectories of attack with mathematics and applying an exact counterforce (Lore), or hardening one's body with Medicine, etc.

Is the Twilight shield problematic from a mechanical point of view? We'll have to wait and see the definitive new system to say. Unless your hobby includes bashing a game you have not actually read (oh wait). Is it problematic from a thematic point of view? I have more beef with the Zenith cremation power (what use was it during the Primordial War, where megadeath events likely occured, and hungry ghosts were not a foreseeable problem until you actually killed first Primordials), to be honest.
I'd actually give minor "aura/chi" abilities to all Essence wielders, including an Essence shield (and a better one to Twilights, not because "I understand Essence better with Occult" but because Ignis Divine/Autochthon sought it was a good idea to give more protection to the battle analysts/engineers/medics), but that's a matter of taste.

I'd say they went for historical inertia ( the Eclipse Charm Learning makes a comeback, with heavy restriction), and I don't blame them for that, as long as the mechanical shenanigans are averted. There is comfort in familiarity, after all.

I had a better constructed argument in mind but my laptop is surprisingly crashy so I'll stop there.
 
Omicron said:
The teleporting power is an emulation of many classic scenes of fiction where a wise mentor figure vanishes at opportune times. It's Obi-Wan Kenobi disappearing as he is struck by Vader, only instead of dying he is still alive and recovering elsewhere. It's Gandalf falling in the depths of the Moria and reappearing in an ancient magical forest. For god's sake - it's Jesus of Nazareth being stabbed with a spear, then disappearing from his tomb and reappearing to his disciples three days later.
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I understand that perfectly, and the teleportation remains the Twilight power I take issue with, because what you are describing there is unambiguously a Sidereal effect rather than a Solar effect.

Sidereals are the ones who get weird wonky reality-hack powers which allow and encourage you to directly play the Mysterious Mentor character. Solars get exaggerations of human ability, which allow and encourage you to be one of the Great Men who shape history.

I mean, there is literally a Sidereal Charm (or RD, I forget) that models what you describe here.

Personally, the idea described earlier in this thread - drawing strength from a place of power, rather than teleporting to one - grabs me much more. It has the same "engage with the world" benefits - arguably to a greater extent than teleportation - and is much more rooted in what sorcerers and the like tend to do in stories, and the skills they're supposed to have.
 
Revlid said:
I understand that perfectly, and the teleportation remains the Twilight power I take issue with, because what you are describing there is unambiguously a Sidereal effect rather than a Solar effect.
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This is true!

Aaaand it isn't.

This isn't cut-and-dry. Each splats has particular themes and inspirations, but there is overlap. Gandalf? Fits both as a Sidereal and a Twilight Caste. Jesus? Pretty definitely a Zenith. Sure, the trick itself looks "Sidereal-y," but the archetype it invokes? Both Solars and Sidereals can fit the bill. And because the archetype is shared by Solars, Solars get the tools to fulfill it.

It's been spoiled before that Lore in Ex3 makes you an awesome support character. Solars can be mentors (mysterious or otherwise), helpers, characters who help catalyze the potential for greatness that other characters have - or accentuate that potential. They share a thematic niche with the Sidereals, and as such they will share some iconic tricks. This is not a problem, as Sidereals are far from limited to being Mysterious Mentors, and can still be - nothing is taken from them.
 
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Looks like third edition Creation. 1st and 2nd edition is différent with fewer features... Though not necessarily a différent surface area.
 
Omicron said:
This is true!

Aaaand it isn't.

This isn't cut-and-dry. Each splats has particular themes and inspirations, but there is overlap. Gandalf? Fits both as a Sidereal and a Twilight Caste. Jesus? Pretty definitely a Zenith. Sure, the trick itself looks "Sidereal-y," but the archetype it invokes? Both Solars and Sidereals can fit the bill. And because the archetype is shared by Solars, Solars get the tools to fulfill it.
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Of course. I've pointed out in the past - to you, I believe - that Odin fits any one of the four classic splats. He could be a Twilight or Dawn, a Chosen of Battles or Secrets, a New Moon, or even an Air Aspect. Batman can be pretty much anything you care to name.

But here's the rub - Solar Odin and Lunar Odin do not work in remotely the same way, despite both being the "same" character. Terrestrial Odin and Sidereal Odin are very distinct, and even when they do the same thing, they do it in different ways, with different tools.

Odin disguises himself to walk among mortals. Solar Odin does this through masterful disguise skills - a mere change in demeanor and clothing renders him casually unrecognizable, or he seems to become an entirely different person through skillful application of makeup and Essence. Lunar Odin does this by shapeshifting into a new form, his hair reknotting itself like a living thing, his skin massaging out its own wrinkles, eyes shimmering into new hues. Sidereal Odin does this by cloaking himself in a false identity, walking unseen by those who've known him for years, hiding behind fate as he drapes the manufactured mantle of a lesser man upon his shoulders. And so on.

Similar differences apply to oracular pronouncements, to waging war on giants and elves, to judging warriors and winning sorcery from the void. They can all do these things. They all do them differently. Every splat is different. No two splats are the same.

These differences are very important - especially when one considers that Solars alone can cover pretty much any character archetype you care to name. There are vanishingly few mythological gods who cannot most easily be represented as Solars. The difference in execution (as particularly opposed to concept) is absolutely core to giving each splat a potent identity.

Even if you want to play Gandalf as a Twilight (I prefer him as a Zenith, tbh, but that's not relevant), he will not - should not - execute his archetype in the same way as Harbinger Gandalf. And just because a Solar can be a Wise Mentor and Gandalf is a Wise Mentor does not mean that a Solar gets to do everything that Gandalf does, nor in the same way as another splat might.

"Be a Wise Mentor" is absolutely a Solar path. But this is not the Solar way of walking that path. It is a poorly-translated Sidereal effect.

Incidentally, Harbinger Gandalf deals with the Balrog by condemning it in Heaven's name, provoking unnatural weather to enhance his attack with crackling lightning and striking down the demon prince. He then collapses, his last gasps choking from his lungs, before burning his identity on joss paper and returning with new tools and skills (and a raise) as Gandalf the White, sometime later when his "death" has expired. Twilight Gandalf deals with the Balrog by cutting it down with a blade infused with holy Essence, casting it from the mountain and falling into a coma from which he can heal his grievous wounds. When he awakes, he calls on his faithful steed Shadowfax, with whom his bond transcends space and time, and is borne down from the mountain to aid his friends.
 
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I still personally think a lot of the setting would make more sense if it was just sized to approximately match the Mediterranean (as it was in early 1e before map scale inflation) and then all the "you travel at 500 miles per hour" effects were removed.
 
Aleph said:
Giving a non-combat class a combat power is kind of defeating the point of them being a non-combat class.
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While your reasoning has merit from one angle...

Weren't we just saying not long ago that "not my speciality, I'll go sit in a corner for this scene" syndrome is BAD?

No exalt should be a non-combat class, no exalt should be a non-social class. Overspecialization to the point of corner sitting is unfun, IMO.
 
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Revlid said:
Incidentally, Harbinger Gandalf deals with the Balrog by condemning it in Heaven's name, provoking unnatural weather to enhance his attack with crackling lightning and striking down the Third Circle Demon. He then collapses, his last gasps choking from his lungs, before burning his identity on joss paper and returning with new tools and skills (and a raise) as Gandalf the White, sometime later when his "death" has expired. Twilight Gandalf deals with the Balrog by cutting it down with a blade infused with holy Essence, casting it from the mountain and falling into a coma from which he can heal his grievous wounds. When he awakes, he calls on his faithful steed Shadowfax, with whom his bond transcends space and time, and is borne down from the mountain to aid his friends.
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OT but Balrog was equivalent of a Second Circle at best.
 
Roadie said:
I still personally think a lot of the setting would make more sense if it was just sized to approximately match the Mediterranean (as it was in early 1e before map scale inflation) and then all the "you travel at 500 miles per hour" effects were removed.
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That would fit nicely with the whole idea of Creation being diminished after the Balorian Crusade, but I think that it might be going too far.

Chloe Sullivan said:
While your reasoning has merit from one angle...

Weren't we just saying not long ago that "not my speciality, I'll go sit in a corner for this scene" syndrome is BAD?

No exalt should be a non-combat class, no exalt should be a non-social class. Overspecialization to the point of corner sitting is unfun, IMO.
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This is one reason I like Sidereals and Realm/Lookshy/Cherak DBs. They are forced to have some understanding of everything, instead of dumping all of their ability points into one thing.
 
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Chloe Sullivan said:
While your reasoning has merit from one angle...

Weren't we just saying not long ago that "not my speciality, I'll go sit in a corner for this scene" syndrome is BAD?

No exalt should be a non-combat class, no exalt should be a non-social class. Overspecialization to the point of corner sitting is unfun, IMO.
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I guess the crux of my argument is this: This is giving something to Twilights that the other castes who don't have combat caste Abilities have to buy. If you're an Eclipse and you want to support your Circle in a fight and be tough enough not to die? You buy Resistance. But if you're a Twilight, you already have this. I have no problem with Twilights fighting, but that's what Favoured Abilities are for. If you want survivability for when you're throwing around buffs and support in a fight, buy a few Resistance Charms. You shouldn't get it for free as a caste anima power when that has nothing to do with your caste skills.
 
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Aleph said:
I guess the crux of my argument is this: This is giving something to Twilights that the other castes who don't have combat caste Abilities have to buy. If you're an Eclipse and you want to support your Circle in a fight and be tough enough not to die? You buy Resistance. But if you're a Twilight, you already have this. I have no problem with Twilights fighting, but that's what Favoured Abilities are for. If you want survivability for when you're throwing around buffs and support in a fight, buy a few Resistance Charms. You shouldn't get it for free as a caste anima power when that has nothing to do with your caste skills.
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There's a possibility that Resistance is one of their caste skills in the new edition, seeing as there are 8 caste skills now instead of 5.

It may still be a bad idea/anima power, but if Resistance is one of their caste abilities now then it would make more sense.
 
Roadie said:
I still personally think a lot of the setting would make more sense if it was just sized to approximately match the Mediterranean (as it was in early 1e before map scale inflation) and then all the "you travel at 500 miles per hour" effects were removed.
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Bleh, no. I like being able to take a couple hundred miles and plop a necromatic Dragon King kingdom in. Also, what map scale inflation. Exalted's world was always meant to be fucking huge. That's a feature: it means you can add thing in like, oh, An-Teng. 2e utterly butchered it with writers having no sense of scale (I remember Dean Shomshak mentioning in a thread at one point about a writer for Compass North trying to add 'a small nation of a thousand miles') though it can't take all the blame for that, as Halta was a 1e thing. And those high speed effect are some of the few things that make sorcery worthwhile (nevermind the 500 miles an hour one is, if I recall right, Adamant Circle Sorcery).

So yeah, the setting might make more sense, but the setting has been badly written on that front, and that is a sad thing.

Walker of the Yellow Path said:
Wait what?!
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List of 8, pick 5.
 
Kylar said:
Bleh, no. I like being able to take a couple hundred miles and plop a necromatic Dragon King kingdom in. Also, what map scale inflation. Exalted's world was always meant to be fucking huge. That's a feature: it means you can add thing in like, oh, An-Teng. 2e utterly butchered it with writers having no sense of scale (I remember Dean Shomshak mentioning in a thread at one point about a writer for Compass North trying to add 'a small nation of a thousand miles') though it can't take all the blame for that, as Halta was a 1e thing. And those high speed effect are some of the few things that make sorcery worthwhile (nevermind the 500 miles an hour one is, if I recall right, Adamant Circle Sorcery).

So yeah, the setting might make more sense, but the setting has been badly written on that front, and that is a sad thing.


List of 8, pick 5.
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Does that mean there will be Caste ability overlap?
 
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