I don't really recall people saying that there's no room for discussion of sexual violence in the game if used properly, but more that an interpretation of Ma-Ha-Suchi as a depraved pansexual sex pest is lame, gross, and made people uncomfortable.
General Exalted Thread
I don't really recall people saying that there's no room for discussion of sexual violence in the game if used properly, but more that an interpretation of Ma-Ha-Suchi as a depraved pansexual sex pest is lame, gross, and made people uncomfortable.
- Location
- Ottawa
I think comments like
are pretty clear.
They don't want sexual violence in the setting or the game. And that's fine!
are pretty clear.
They don't want sexual violence in the setting or the game. And that's fine!
- Location
- The North
It takes a certain quality of character to say something as inflammatory as 'the people arguing against my point are engaging in self-harm' and then try to present yourself as a completely passive participant in a conversation. This seems to be a frequent maneuver you attempt - passing yourself off as an unmoving rock in a sea of angry people upset over your completely innocuous statements.
It's thoroughly unimpressive. I can't believe I was ever intimidated by your weird faux-strongman posting. The way you're conducting yourself in this conversation is so hollowly reprehensible.
It's thoroughly unimpressive. I can't believe I was ever intimidated by your weird faux-strongman posting. The way you're conducting yourself in this conversation is so hollowly reprehensible.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of willingness to deal with "sex stuff", and I would prefer if you did not lecture me.
I am going to make an educated guess here and assume that you are a man or male-presenting. My apologies if this guess is wrong. What you are describing is not a scary villain or an interesting character. It is a guy who makes me uncomfortable when I go out alone without friends. It's a guy who won't stop flirting with me over the counter. What you are describing is scary, not because of the implications of his existence as if I have to posit him, but because I have to deal with several of him every day I go to work.
The Ma-Ha-Suchi you are describing is a stereotype, a joke, a parody of effeminate men and pansexual people as sexual predators. The guy you are describing is an active part of reality for some of us. What do you know about being trapped behind a 7-eleven counter at 23:00 with a guy who won't stop flirting with you, is at least a head taller than you and responds with, "I know a way to fix that problem" when you say you have a girlfriend? That your response then is to dismiss objections with a condescending lecture about how, oh of course you can choose not to figure "sexual" stuff, if you would like to is the problem. It has nothing to do with "sex" stuff.
I understand if you think that this guy is an interesting take on dark sexual themes and stuff, well I don't think that, and when @TenfoldShields says that "you've -wholly unprompted- recreated the idea of the predatory queer" he means it in the sense that like, my guy, you are the one advocating for bringing this guy back. You are the one advocating for bringing the sexually predatory overly promiscuous bisexual dude back, and then you excuse yourself by saying oh no, he's just in the book my guys. You do know this guy was written by an infamous homophobe, right? He doesn't have to be brought back. There are better takes on sexual themes.
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- Location
- Britain
okay morke
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
<Fina>
First-Age Ma-Ha-Suchi is not an exploration of sexual themes, or sexual violence. Because his portrayal does not actually explore anything. If you disagree, go ahead - tell me what his inclusion in a game actually explores.
Instead, he is a sexual abusers power fantasy. He has the motivation to have sex with everyone, with no regards for the actual people involved, is given the means to do so, strips the people in question of the means to say no, and the society in which he lives is described as not stopping him.
You can argue that obviously, Exalts like him who would abuse their power would exist, much like people like that exist in real life, and that you could explore what it means to encounter him and stop him. I'll note that this hasn't been argued. I'll further note that this wouldn't mesh well with Ma-Ha-Suchi as described - because as described, he already should have been stopped by others. Real-life serial sexual predators do not go after people more powerful than them, while he is clearly described as having done so (but getting away with it, since he is a power fantasy).
Nor can you argue that he is a necessary statement about Exalted as a setting. Because he actually clashes with the setting - why exactly does no one who would be able to stop him do so? His powers of "seduction" are portrayed as unstoppable, getting past everyone, yet beneath everyone's notice, which is very much not how that works - except for him, because again, he is a sexual predators power fantasy.
There are plenty of ways to have themes of sexual violence in your story. They can even include someone like Ma-Ha-Suchi - but with very important difference in the story if you want the story to be an actual exploration. There is no possible point for the advocation of Ma-Ha-Suchi as written.
First-Age Ma-Ha-Suchi is not an exploration of sexual themes, or sexual violence. Because his portrayal does not actually explore anything. If you disagree, go ahead - tell me what his inclusion in a game actually explores.
Instead, he is a sexual abusers power fantasy. He has the motivation to have sex with everyone, with no regards for the actual people involved, is given the means to do so, strips the people in question of the means to say no, and the society in which he lives is described as not stopping him.
You can argue that obviously, Exalts like him who would abuse their power would exist, much like people like that exist in real life, and that you could explore what it means to encounter him and stop him. I'll note that this hasn't been argued. I'll further note that this wouldn't mesh well with Ma-Ha-Suchi as described - because as described, he already should have been stopped by others. Real-life serial sexual predators do not go after people more powerful than them, while he is clearly described as having done so (but getting away with it, since he is a power fantasy).
Nor can you argue that he is a necessary statement about Exalted as a setting. Because he actually clashes with the setting - why exactly does no one who would be able to stop him do so? His powers of "seduction" are portrayed as unstoppable, getting past everyone, yet beneath everyone's notice, which is very much not how that works - except for him, because again, he is a sexual predators power fantasy.
There are plenty of ways to have themes of sexual violence in your story. They can even include someone like Ma-Ha-Suchi - but with very important difference in the story if you want the story to be an actual exploration. There is no possible point for the advocation of Ma-Ha-Suchi as written.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The game calls him a rascal for this! A rascal! He incurs the "rare negative feeling" for pressuring his way into your home and he's a rascal!
- Location
- Ottawa
Staff Notice -- Next time please recognize when a subject is controversial and contentious enough to move discussion out of the General thread. --Apocal
...
I'm genuinely sorry that I ever intimidated you.
I don't mind angering people, obviously. But to dominate and frighten them is the last thing I want. Part of the reason I'm so rigidly calm in these conversations is that I know my more-or-less infinite self-confidence can be hard to deal with. I really do not want to crush anybody.
Maybe this is weird, but I'd actually much rather have your contempt than your fear.
It's not really a maneuver. I just feel passive in these arguments.
But FWIW, I do understand that my statements are often not innocuous at all. And the self-harm thing came out way meaner than I intended; sorry about that.
Alright, first of all, I want to say thanks for making a detailed argument when you really had every incentive just to sling mud. It shows grace.
I generally like taking minor monsters from the real world and blowing them into myth-powered nightmares. But you know, when it doesn't work it doesn't work.
And yeah, I'm a dude. A pretty dudely dude, actually. Possible that my own lack of fear of such things colours my reaction - and I can hardly call the character a success if it only works for those without fear.
Oh, I thought Tenfold was accusing me of coming up with this version of him. Guess that was a misunderstanding.
Also, FWIW, I don't actually want the First Age back as a fully-written setting at all. Like I said, I like the TAW approach to him for the modern day. Though I'd keep the self-loathing over his mutations.
Actually, no. Do tell?
Hrm.
Okay, now you have me worrying that I was giving the book too much credit.
See, I figured he was running wild to show the decay and corruption of the world, and to give you someone to punch. But your reading rings uncomfortably true.
Alert: Yeah, that's about time on this topic.
yeah, that's about time on this topic.
Stop talking about First Age Ma-Ha-Suchi in this thread.
Stop talking about First Age Ma-Ha-Suchi in this thread.
Most haven't broken any rules or anything, and it isn't exactly off-topic, but this has quickly become disruptive to the thread as a whole.
edit: So I just realized that I should be more specific: stop talking about the sexual harassment bits of First Age Ma-Ha-Suchi. You don't have to go around never speaking his name or anything, just avoid the specific topic that was previously under discussion.
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- Location
- Ottawa
Anyway, before I got sucked into that ugly tangent I was thinking about Lunar accomplishments. And about why the ones in 3e ring so hollow to me.
I think it's because so many of them are about tearing down the Terrestrial Exalted. If your life is all about opposing someone, you aren't really the hero of your own story; you're just the villain of theirs. And everything that you achieve will always be secondary to what they've done.
So I brainstormed a few Lunars who don't care one whit about the Realm. Scattered them across the corners of the setting because, well, I like the corners of the setting.
Since I figure everyone would prefer to see something else from me, this seems like a good time to post them.
Urullo, the World Collector
Deep in the Wyld, far beyond the limits of sanity, there is a silver island of stability. A great metallic fish, "swimming" through chaos. Within it, a crew that comprises an entire civilization in miniature, eight hundred souls descended from the ship's original operators.
This fish, which has no proper name, was built by Urullo countless years ago. Urullo believed that there must be other Creations, out in the endless Wyld, and set out to find them. And he did...after a fashion. He found the corposes of worlds.
Whether by the birth of Creation, by internal catastrophe, or by the simple passage of time, every once-somewhat-stable world that Urullo found was dead. Broken into pieces. Dissolving into chaos. So Urullo gathered the pieces up into his fish, and stored them in its heart. He studied them, not in search of any great secret but simply to know them. To remember them. To ensure that they would not be forgotten.
And then he died. Not even the Exalted live forever. Following his final instructions, his crew sought to return to Creation. To share the knowledge of the dead worlds with the rest of humanity. But the path is very, very, long. And there is no wilderness harder to navigate than Pure Chaos. Many generations later, the fish still swims the seas of madness.
Mell, the Demon-Speaker
The Exalted are not popular in Malfeas. The enemies of the gods are the enemies of the gods; the Exalted were born to topple the Primordials, and the Primordials did not appreciate being toppled.
But somehow, Mell enjoyed almost universal approval. Each Yozi imagined her loyal to them above all others; many a demon thought her a friend; the rare and vulnerable humans of Malfeas considered her their champion. Mell lived in Hell and somehow, some way, made herself at home there.
Whenever hostilities arose - which, it being Hell, was every day - Mell would try to smooth the waters. She would speak to the Yozis and the Unquestionable and the behemoths. She would make peace if she could, and help the weak out of the way if she couldn't. Because she had once been one of the humans of Malfeas, and she new the terror of being very small.
When she was murdered, the Third Circle responsible was dropped into a very deep pit. It's still in there. No Yozi is willing to let it out, not even its oversoul.
Joriog, the Deep Queen
Deep below Creation, the Darkbrood lurk. Defeated enemies of the gods, misbegotten children of the Primordials, and other stranger things creep and crawl in the endless darkness, making war upon the Mountain Folk and upon each other. They know no peace, little civilization, and little hope - outside of the Deep Queendom.
Far below the Imperial Mountain, so deep that the Silver Pact does not even know she exists, lives an ancient Lunar of tremendous power. Her name is Joriog, and she was once a slave to nameless monsters. One of the most unfortunate humans in all Creation, the descendent of a hundred generations of slaves. When Luna smiled upon her she led a revolt, and soon had the monsters at her mercy.
Her friends cried for blood. But she was wiser. She knew that killing the monsters would soon mean their own death; the few humans in that dark place had neither the knowledge nor the magic to sustain their underground civilization or the arcane devices that fed it. So she spared her oppressors - or at least, those among them who had not been particularly cruel.
Joriog set about building utopia, or trying to. There were many many many problems, but she persevered. She's still at it. And she's had more success than anyone could have expected. Humans live well in the Deep Queendom, and a hundred species of so-called monster gather there as equals.
But Joriog has a problem. She is desperately lonely. Her divinely-blessed mind whirs at a thousand thoughts per minute; the slow thoughts of mortals have begun to bore her. And the endless respect that she is treated with has grown stifling. She believes that somewhere, there must be other people like her. She wants very much to meet them.
I think it's because so many of them are about tearing down the Terrestrial Exalted. If your life is all about opposing someone, you aren't really the hero of your own story; you're just the villain of theirs. And everything that you achieve will always be secondary to what they've done.
So I brainstormed a few Lunars who don't care one whit about the Realm. Scattered them across the corners of the setting because, well, I like the corners of the setting.
Since I figure everyone would prefer to see something else from me, this seems like a good time to post them.
Urullo, the World Collector
Deep in the Wyld, far beyond the limits of sanity, there is a silver island of stability. A great metallic fish, "swimming" through chaos. Within it, a crew that comprises an entire civilization in miniature, eight hundred souls descended from the ship's original operators.
This fish, which has no proper name, was built by Urullo countless years ago. Urullo believed that there must be other Creations, out in the endless Wyld, and set out to find them. And he did...after a fashion. He found the corposes of worlds.
Whether by the birth of Creation, by internal catastrophe, or by the simple passage of time, every once-somewhat-stable world that Urullo found was dead. Broken into pieces. Dissolving into chaos. So Urullo gathered the pieces up into his fish, and stored them in its heart. He studied them, not in search of any great secret but simply to know them. To remember them. To ensure that they would not be forgotten.
And then he died. Not even the Exalted live forever. Following his final instructions, his crew sought to return to Creation. To share the knowledge of the dead worlds with the rest of humanity. But the path is very, very, long. And there is no wilderness harder to navigate than Pure Chaos. Many generations later, the fish still swims the seas of madness.
Mell, the Demon-Speaker
The Exalted are not popular in Malfeas. The enemies of the gods are the enemies of the gods; the Exalted were born to topple the Primordials, and the Primordials did not appreciate being toppled.
But somehow, Mell enjoyed almost universal approval. Each Yozi imagined her loyal to them above all others; many a demon thought her a friend; the rare and vulnerable humans of Malfeas considered her their champion. Mell lived in Hell and somehow, some way, made herself at home there.
Whenever hostilities arose - which, it being Hell, was every day - Mell would try to smooth the waters. She would speak to the Yozis and the Unquestionable and the behemoths. She would make peace if she could, and help the weak out of the way if she couldn't. Because she had once been one of the humans of Malfeas, and she new the terror of being very small.
When she was murdered, the Third Circle responsible was dropped into a very deep pit. It's still in there. No Yozi is willing to let it out, not even its oversoul.
Joriog, the Deep Queen
Deep below Creation, the Darkbrood lurk. Defeated enemies of the gods, misbegotten children of the Primordials, and other stranger things creep and crawl in the endless darkness, making war upon the Mountain Folk and upon each other. They know no peace, little civilization, and little hope - outside of the Deep Queendom.
Far below the Imperial Mountain, so deep that the Silver Pact does not even know she exists, lives an ancient Lunar of tremendous power. Her name is Joriog, and she was once a slave to nameless monsters. One of the most unfortunate humans in all Creation, the descendent of a hundred generations of slaves. When Luna smiled upon her she led a revolt, and soon had the monsters at her mercy.
Her friends cried for blood. But she was wiser. She knew that killing the monsters would soon mean their own death; the few humans in that dark place had neither the knowledge nor the magic to sustain their underground civilization or the arcane devices that fed it. So she spared her oppressors - or at least, those among them who had not been particularly cruel.
Joriog set about building utopia, or trying to. There were many many many problems, but she persevered. She's still at it. And she's had more success than anyone could have expected. Humans live well in the Deep Queendom, and a hundred species of so-called monster gather there as equals.
But Joriog has a problem. She is desperately lonely. Her divinely-blessed mind whirs at a thousand thoughts per minute; the slow thoughts of mortals have begun to bore her. And the endless respect that she is treated with has grown stifling. She believes that somewhere, there must be other people like her. She wants very much to meet them.
I have no idea what the hell the person who wrote Of Things Desired and Feared was thinking, but holy shit why would you write a Charm whose whole purpose is to not play the game.
Really, Sidereal Lore needs way more effects for getting benefits because you know the future in general, rather than the psuedo-social ability and also a "Instead of playing this session, describe how I win!" Charm.
Really, Sidereal Lore needs way more effects for getting benefits because you know the future in general, rather than the psuedo-social ability and also a "Instead of playing this session, describe how I win!" Charm.
- Location
- The North
Oh no it's Breathing on the Black Mirror Discourse 2.0!
You seem to disagree but I think that like "have a discussion with the ST about what would be required for you to accomplish a goal and the consequences thereof, and then resolve that in a brief montage" is actually something that happens very often in Exalted games, and is in fact a normal part of gameplay. Not everything needs to be exhaustively rolled out, and Charms like this can speed along play in a way that gets you to things you find more interesting (because why would you want to truncate something you find interesting?).
You seem to disagree but I think that like "have a discussion with the ST about what would be required for you to accomplish a goal and the consequences thereof, and then resolve that in a brief montage" is actually something that happens very often in Exalted games, and is in fact a normal part of gameplay. Not everything needs to be exhaustively rolled out, and Charms like this can speed along play in a way that gets you to things you find more interesting (because why would you want to truncate something you find interesting?).
...then why have a Charm for that? If you make a Charm for a completely normal part of play experience, you're making it so that no one else but PCs who have that power can do it.
Also, people sometimes disagree on what is interesting, and my core concern is players who use this to skip anything they don't want to deal with. Though, at least this Charm comes with a player veto in it, so if something like that happens, you can just have the whole session be a fight between the person trying to use the Charm and the person who doesn't want to skip the events they're trying to skip, instead of being about the montage of skipping them.
And, to a somewhat lesser but still there concern: as written, this Charm lets you do Workings and the like without spending XP, or needing to be initiated into the Circle, which could also be a problem if the player only cares about direct consequences to the character.
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Isn't easier to put it in the ST section? Otherwise it can be interpreted that this can only be done with this Charm.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's honestly my favorite Charm in the Lore tree for how succinctly it communicates the sheer pessimism of the Maiden in Terror. It's very thematic.
- Location
- Britain
I think you are wildly extrapolating or perhaps inventing new charm text sight unseen out of thin air.
So we're all on the same page here, this is what the charm's natural language says on the subject of what it can do:
Emphasis mine. There needs to be a way for the player to actually achieve their goal. I'm not sure how you can do Workings without Circle initiation and I'm not entirely clear why XP is going to be waived here. Like if someone says 'I want to do a Working' and they have Jack And Shit as far as sorcerous investment goes, that seems like an easy win for that 'if the Storyteller considers a task completely impossible' clause, and someone who uses this to do one will still presumably be charged all costs involved - or maybe even more!Of Things Desired and Feared said:
It's "one way she could achieve it", referring to the player character, specifically. Not a way that someone else could do it.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
<Fina>
It lets a player do things that not everyone at the table may be interested in playing out.
There are many many cases in which a player may ask if and how they can do them, and the storyteller tells them so, but which then result in them getting played out because the outcome or cost are not guaranteed, so you go through the various steps to see about those. Like, IDK, maybe it is pretty certain that you can cure this plague with your Medicine-skill, but it is not so trivial that it is just a single roll so it gets played out.
But with this charm, you skip that, and can do things that the table isn't interested in. Which, you know, can be pretty good! It lets you do things you, as a player, are interested in without taking up everyone's time!
Also, I think it is absurd to say that you can do things without XP while the Charm explicitly calls out Costs, or be able to do things you otherwise can not while it says you can not do impossible things with it (impossible does after all vary from person to person).
- Location
- The North
Of Things Desired And Feared also does one of my favorite PBTA things, which is when a player can prompt the ST to answer a question, and the answer they get is a rough one.
A Sidereal turns to heaven for answers. "How can I avert the war?"
Heaven's answer is simple. "Murder the king, install his daughter on the throne and convince her to give her brothers to the enemy as royal hostages. The war will be averted. All it'll cost you is the life of your best friend."
The Sidereal tosses the missive away. They know for certain that Heaven's plan will work, but do they have the fortitude to see it through?
A Sidereal turns to heaven for answers. "How can I avert the war?"
Heaven's answer is simple. "Murder the king, install his daughter on the throne and convince her to give her brothers to the enemy as royal hostages. The war will be averted. All it'll cost you is the life of your best friend."
The Sidereal tosses the missive away. They know for certain that Heaven's plan will work, but do they have the fortitude to see it through?
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Manic Dogma
This, I can't deny.
- Location
- The far side of tired
- Pronouns
- Whatever
In fairness, "why would I buy a martial arts charm with the express purpose of skipping doing martial arts" is a fair question imo. Doing Martial Arts is literally what I'm here for!
- Location
- Britain
Breathing on the Black Mirror generally requires you beat up major enemies first anyway given the difficulty level being based on enemy HP, and if you wanna waste a once-per-story E5 charm on some mooks that seems entirely up to youIn fairness, "why would I buy a martial arts charm with the express purpose of skipping doing martial arts" is a fair question imo. Doing Martial Arts is literally what I'm here for!
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Okay, I like this thing's energy.
The all-but-explicit "Can you find a better way forward than the one prophecy handed to you? Do you have the time, desire, and ability to put the care that would be required into doing so?" going on here is lovely. Especially with how that also makes a Path-to-Victory style prophecy a form of expediency, both in-setting and for the players themselves.