So, since Holden said that they're not going to change stuff that's been spoiled just because it was spoiled (even considering that it was out-of-date information anyway), I feel comfortable enough bringing up the Twilight anima powers that someone posted in that 4chan thread (and that wasn't deleted when the linked spoilers were neutered).

The first one was basically the old Twilight anima power; become Tankier by spending motes or letting your anima flare ("bonfire" may now be a proper term in the new rules regarding anima flare levels).

The second one is kind of like the spirit Charm, Hurry Home, but without the hurrying. 10m, 1wp, and stand completely still for one round of combat -- if you don't get hit, you vanish from existence until the next sunset, and reappear at the closest "place of power" (temple, demense, manse, sanctum gate, etc) or whichever one within a ten mile radius of where you disappeared.
How does "I am the master of all knowledge" translate to "I have a personal forcefield" and "I can teleport"? Sensing places of power a'la the Zenith "Sense Injustice" button is one thing, but this basically looks like the Twilight Reactor problem all over again - people aren't going to use this to compensate for sorcerers being squishy, they're just going to make Twilight fighters who have Hardness up the wazoo and can teleport out of danger if they ever feel too outmatched. Meanwhile, the Dawns sit in the corner and feel sad.

Also, as has been brought up before, power 2 has no rules on who decides exactly where the character goes, which is a recipe for endless arguments between players and STs.
 
How does "I am the master of all knowledge" translate to "I have a personal forcefield" and "I can teleport"?
That's got me scratching my head, too.


the Zenith "Sense Injustice" button
So that must be the "Plot Generator 2000" thing someone alluded to, earlier. But where did you learn about this? Was it in that same 4chan thread, or did you get a peak at the forbidden documents?


this basically looks like the Twilight Reactor problem all over again - people aren't going to use this to compensate for sorcerers being squishy, they're just going to make Twilight fighters who have Hardness up the wazoo and can teleport out of danger if they ever feel too outmatched. Meanwhile, the Dawns sit in the corner and feel sad.
Assuming that the Dawns don't get anima powers which are much better suited for actually winning fights instead of surviving and running away from them.

And the greater flexibility of Caste Ability choices helps, too.


Also, as has been brought up before, power 2 has no rules on who decides exactly where the character goes, which is a recipe for endless arguments between players and STs.
I do hope that gets revised for clarity.
 
So that must be the "Plot Generator 2000" thing someone alluded to, earlier. But where did you learn about this? Was it in that same 4chan thread, or did you get a peak at the forbidden documents?
4chan thread. The leak was long since over by the time I got there.
Assuming that the Dawns don't get anima powers which are much better suited for actually winning fights instead of surviving and running away from them.
By definition, the ability to get out of a fight you're losing is really goddamn useful. Dawn anima powers, from what I saw, are largely similar to 2e.
 
Here are all the Anima powers, source is 4chan:

DAWN ANIMA POWERS

>• At bonfire, add half her Essence score rounded up to the Dawn's base Initiative upon a successful decisive attack.

>• For ten motes, all combat Charms with outstanding reset conditions are automatically reset. This effect can only be used once per day, resetting at sunrise.

>• The Dawn Caste inspires terror: add her Essence in dice to all intimidating social influence. She may also intimidate targets which do not feel fear, such as automatons, golems, and certain undead.



ZENITH ANIMA POWERS

>• For one mote, the Zenith's anima leaps from her hand to a corpse she is touching, igniting it in Solar flame. This power incinerates the corpse and ensures that the soul of the deceased will not return as a hungry ghost. In addition, the Zenith may perceive the strongest Intimacies of the deceased and may choose to accept them. When she is ready, she may pay one mote, touching a target of those Intimacies to pass on feelings of peace, love, and assurance, shedding them in the process. She may also transfer Intimacies to an object, allowing it to convey comfort or a sense of duty to the subject. Conversely, she may touch someone who caused the deceased to suffer, paying one mote and rolling a social Attribute + Presence with three automatic non-Charm successes against their Resolve, to transfer pain suffered by the deceased back on the one who caused such hurt. The Storyteller is free to dictate the length and weight of such attrition.

>• For ten motes, one Willpower, the Zenith channels her Essence into an aura of divine retribution, flashing and surging around her attack. This power supplements a decisive attack against a creature of darkness, preventing her Initiative from returning to its base value after the attack. When the Zenith's anima is at bonfire, reduce the cost of this power by five motes and ignore the Willpower. This power may only be used once per day, resetting when the sun is at its zenith.

>• For three motes, the Zenith may sense the nearest kingdom, nation, or settlement within (Essence * 200) miles in which there are laws that are a direct affront to her defining principles, or those lands where there are laws which align with her defining principles but are suffering some sort of decay. She then gains three non-Charm successes on any Survival roll to find the nearest road or artery that will take her to such a place.



TWILIGHT ANIMA POWERS

>• For five motes, the Twilight projects an aura of pure force from within her anima, reflexively increasing her hardness by five for one turn. At bonfire, this power activates itself automatically. This effect does not stack with other magic that raises hardness, but it can be used during Crash.

>• For ten motes, one willpower, the Twilight's anima flares and consumes her body over the course of the round. On her next turn, she vanishes into her anima and ceases to exist. To use this power, the Exalt must not move or suffer knockdown before the action is completed. After using this power, the Twilight will not reappear until the following sunset. When she does, it will be at a place of power within ten miles of her vanishing point. She might appear at a temple, a demesne, or the door of a god's sanctum.

>• For ten motes, the Twilight may touch an Essence 1-3 elemental or a demon of the first circle, conjoining its Essence to her anima. Roll Intelligence + Occult against the creature's Resolve. If successful, this creates a pact that changes the spirit into her familiar, allowing her to target it with applicable Survival Charms. In addition, the Twilight can reflexively summon the spirit instantly for three motes, drawing it through the Essence of the world to appear beside her. She may banish the creature again, reflexively, for free, returning it to the tides of Essence that suffuse Creation.



NIGHT ANIMA POWERS

>• For two motes, the Night can dampen her anima, treating all peripheral Essence expenditures as if they were personal for one instant.

>• For three motes, the Night can ignore (Essence) penalties to a Stealth attempt for one instant.

>• When the Exalt is in bonfire, her anima wraps and suffuses her form, hiding her figure and masking her visage in flame. It becomes completely impossible to discern her identity. This is considered a perfect defense, not subject to Eye of the Unconquered Sun.



ECLIPSE ANIMA POWERS

>• For ten motes, one willpower, the Eclipse sanctifies an oath she has witnessed, making it unbreakable. The Exalt touches the oath-givers (or their words, as they pass through the air), her caste mark flashing imperceptibly. If she wishes, her anima briefly flares, swirling with the words and runes by which Heaven has given her the right to arbitrate such matters. Oaths-givers who break pacts sworn before the Lawgiver (including the Exalt herself) are subject to a terrible curse, adjudicated by the Storyteller.

>• The Exalt has diplomatic immunity when treating with the enemies of Creation. Spirits, the demon princes of Hell, and the Fair Folk may not attack the Eclipse or her companions without just cause, and such creatures must observe the rules of hospitality. Such beings may still attempt to provoke members of the Solar's embassy into breaking the peace.

>• The Eclipse represents all the subtle movements of Essence under Heaven, the strange and self-referencing powers that stir when night merges with day. Eclipses can learn the Charms of spirits, Fair Folk and similar supernatural beings which have the Eclipse keyword for eight experience points each.

Considering that powerful Charms such as Seven Shadow Evasion have strict reset conditions (for example 'must use Reed in the Wind to dodge three attacks') that Dawn anima is really quite useful.

Also, honestly? The Twilight vanishing power is much more suited to the Night Caste. Just up and vanishing for a day is definitely a ninja thing.
 
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So basically Eclipse gets stuck with strictly controlled and defined powers that will likely ensure they can't do anything cool, while the Zenith gets magical torture powers, the twilight gets teleportation (and isn't that meant to be something PC's can't do), 'free' Familars (with seemingly no cap on the number) and the bloody forcefield (yet again), the Night gets a perfect defense, blasty charms while keeping stealth and a penalty negater and the Dawn gets to scare people and reset their cooldowns every twohoursday...

Seriously, I thought they are meant to be bloody nerfing the Twilight power, not give them a bunch of free demons or elementals that hang around until needed. And then they give them not only that but the forcefield as well...
 
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Uhm, guys, can we table the 3e complaints until it comes out?

In the meantime, are there any good write ups of exalted games available to read?
 
So basically Eclipse gets stuck with strictly controlled and defined powers that will likely ensure they can't do anything cool
The Eclipse oath-sanctifying power has gotten a buff - nobody knows its happened and neither party has to consent to it. The only requirement is that you have to witness the oath being made - meaning you can just trigger it for anything you overhear. It has the largest dick move potential of all the Anima powers.

But you're right - the Anima powers are unbalanced. But its not complete yet, and the documents weren't meant for public viewing. I reckon they already KNOW they're unbalanced, and haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.

So instead of complaining, lets contemplate how they can be fixed, yeah?
 
The Eclipse oath-sanctifying power has gotten a buff - nobody knows its happened and neither party has to consent to it. The only requirement is that you have to witness the oath being made - meaning you can just trigger it for anything you overhear. It has the largest dick move potential of all the Anima powers.

Not really. Rather then causing botches the curse is up to the Story Teller, so its basically gotten a massive chunk of 'Nope, not gonna happen, hes cursed to a slower growing mustache'.
 
Not really. Rather then causing botches the curse is up to the Story Teller, so its basically gotten a massive chunk of 'Nope, not gonna happen, hes cursed to a slower growing mustache'.
Thats not a 'terrible' curse by any stretch of the imagination, unless they're like Dan McNinja and their mustache is the source of their power.

But like I said, its not finished yet. Complaining that things aren't fleshed out or are missing is, quite frankly, stating the fucking obvious.
 
Multiquote is love.
So, since Holden said that they're not going to change stuff that's been spoiled just because it was spoiled (even considering that it was out-of-date information anyway), I feel comfortable enough bringing up the Twilight anima powers that someone posted in that 4chan thread (and that wasn't deleted when the linked spoilers were neutered).

The first one was basically the old Twilight anima power; become Tankier by spending motes or letting your anima flare ("bonfire" may now be a proper term in the new rules regarding anima flare levels).

The second one is kind of like the spirit Charm, Hurry Home, but without the hurrying. 10m, 1wp, and stand completely still for one round of combat -- if you don't get hit, you vanish from existence until the next sunset, and reappear at the closest "place of power" (temple, demense, manse, sanctum gate, etc) or whichever one within a ten mile radius of where you disappeared.

Third, spend 10m and touch a spirit, making it a (temporary?) Familiar, and thus a valid target for Solar Survival Familiar Charms.


Thoughts?

Not really a fan of the Twilight Anima in the slightest.

The third part is semi decent, but even that could use work.

the twilight gets teleportation (and isn't that meant to be something PC's can't do),

It's actually just not supposed to be something casual.

Hell, there's a teleport spell(Travel without Distance, celestial circle) right in the freaking corebook.

Not really. Rather then causing botches the curse is up to the Story Teller, so its basically gotten a massive chunk of 'Nope, not gonna happen, hes cursed to a slower growing mustache'.

Look, if your ST is really going to make the penalty for someone breaking an Eclipse Oath something like "Slow growing mustache" one of two things is happening;

1) You're playing a light hearted comedy game that isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

or

2) Your ST is an asshole and you should be looking for another game.
 
Look, if your ST is really going to make the penalty for someone breaking an Eclipse Oath something like "Slow growing mustache" one of two things is happening;
I think that was an example of what would happen if you tried to be a dick with the Eclipse Power and sanctify 'oaths' you overhear made by boastful drunkards and the like.
 
I think that was an example of what would happen if you tried to be a dick with the Eclipse Power and sanctify 'oaths' you overhear made by boastful drunkards and the like.

Pretty much this. You can't really be as much of a dick with this version of the Oath power because the impending curse is no where near as intresting as botches that come at the wrong possible time for the cursed one. So while it seems easier to use, the ST defined nature of the curse means its much harder to actually benefit from that power, even without sitting in a pub and randomly sanctifying every oath you hear.

Also, it doesn't really seem very 'eclipsey' so to speak. Being able to sanctify oaths without the persons consent sounds more like something a Fiend or Moonshadow should be able to do, rather then an eclipse, a twisted mirror type power they get instead of diplomatic immunity. Actually, if they stay the same might house rule that, since Fiends getting oath breaking instead of immunity seems interesting, and Moonshadows getting sneaky oaths.

And it just seems I don't know.. disappointing. Honestly, I think the third Twilight power seems much more suited to the eclipse caste, mostly because it involves pacts and deals. But then I admit I love the idea of an Eclipse Priest sanctifying weddings that tend botches on their unfaithful spouses attempts at cheating.
 
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So, for those unwilling to page through that (links are dead at this point) here's the responses from Holden in that thread:
I'll note, for the people who were complaining, that Holden mentions that a lot of that data was obsolete, where Kylar quoted him. So, you know. Most of the flawed stuff is more than likely gonna change.

(and hopefully no other assholes try to fuck shit up again)
 
Dawn anima frontloads offensive power. Their anima allows them to make decisive attacks faster than anyone else and potentially allows them to use intimidation to break the enemy's morale, making them highly effective against battle groups. Effectiveness of the combat charm reset power is unknowable at this time.

Zenith anima capitalizes on priestly roles. The funerary power now allows them to support the grieving. Combined with the third power, it also enforces the role of the Zenith caste as judgmental, retributive god-kings who mete out justice according to their win, as does the second power.

Twilight anima provides support for a non-combat caste. The first power is most likely redundant with Resistance. The second power introduces an interesting tactical problem for enemies to solve, but may be of limited use. The third power is very interesting, but may be redundant with sorcery, or prove too niche due to reliance on Survival charms. All things considered, the Twilight anima seems like the most underpowered, and the most likely to change during playtest.

Night caste anima supports their role as the stealth caste. It seems to have received a significant upgrade, particularly taking the Mute keyword into consideration.

Eclipse anima enforces their role as the diplomats of all courts. It remains unchanged. The oath power has received a fairly significant upgrade, as it can now be used to key off the context of the oath, rather than apply to an unrelated roll.

So, can we assume that Initiative is the official name for this "momentum/advantage" mechanic that they've never actually named up till now?

This was my first assumption, but then I became uncertain and assumed it was just a normal Initiative roll, like you'd find in D&D. Then I checked the Tyrant Lizard stat block.

Tyrant Lizard
Base Initiative: 4
Join Battle: 8 dice

So, yeah, the name of the momentum mechanic was spoiled about a year ago and nobody noticed.
 
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Pretty much this. You can't really be as much of a dick with this version of the Oath power because the impending curse is no where near as intresting as botches that come at the wrong possible time for the cursed one. So while it seems easier to use, the ST defined nature of the curse means its much harder to actually benefit from that power, even without sitting in a pub and randomly sanctifying every oath you hear.

Also, it doesn't really seem very 'eclipsey' so to speak. Being able to sanctify oaths without the persons consent sounds more like something a Fiend or Moonshadow should be able to do, rather then an eclipse, a twisted mirror type power they get instead of diplomatic immunity. Actually, if they stay the same might house rule that, since Fiends getting oath breaking instead of immunity seems interesting, and Moonshadows getting sneaky oaths.
There was a pretty good example about the Eclipse power in the original 4chan thread:

>drunk stumbles out of a bar
>"I'm gonna kill that fucking baron, tax-leeching cunt"
>[witnessing intensifies]
>guy is cursed until he lashes out at the Baron, at which point his luck turns
>he realises he is on a divine mission to stamp out this barons tyranny

Opening Solars up to cause that kind of story by just being there at the right time seems pretty neat. Its the kind of stuff Heroic Mortals are made of.

Also, personally, I prefer Momentum over Initiative, but its just a minor niggle.
 
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Damn it, now I'm too busy thinking to sleep.

The Twilight hardness anima isn't just underpowered, it's almost completely useless.

Bashing and Lethal Soak were both combined into Soak. Why? Because there's no point in separating them; it's just one more number to keep track of.

So why would you keep Hardness after cutting Soak down to one value? Because there are two kinds of attacks. Soak applies to attacks to Initiative, while Hardness applies to decisive attacks that go for the health track. Goddamn it, why didn't I think of this sooner?

By the time a Twilight needs Hardness, either they're good at combat, in which case they have Resistance, or they're not aimed for combat, in which case they're probably screwed and things have gone horribly wrong because the Dawn should be the one tanking decisive attacks. The anima power is either redundant (unless the Twilight is really desperate for motes, I guess), or a really desperate last defense that shouldn't come into play.

Edit: No, wait, there's a third situation where the Twilight would need Hardness. If they're using Craft, Investigation, Lore, Occult and Medicine in a support role while the rest of the circle is fighting, then their Initiative isn't increasing, which makes them more vulnerable to decisive attacks, so the anima power is necessary as a last defense against damage for Twilights who don't delve into Resistance.
 
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What's all this about attacking Initiative?
You ever played Final Fantasy Dissidia?

Its basically that.

If you haven't here's a short explanation:

You have two types of attacks. One doesn't do damage but builds up 'initiative', and the other burns off initiative to power it up to deal actual damage on your target. If you're at 0 initiative, you're basically guard broken and are a sitting duck.
 
You ever played Final Fantasy Dissidia?

Its basically that.

If you haven't here's a short explanation:

You have two types of attacks. One doesn't do damage but builds up 'initiative', and the other burns off initiative to power it up to deal actual damage on your target. If you're at 0 initiative, you're basically guard broken and are a sitting duck.
No I haven't.

This is kind of like Hazard from Shards, right? Or the Threat/Finisher/Consequence combat system that MJ12 Commando posted the seeds of a while back?
 
No I haven't.

This is kind of like Hazard from Shards, right? Or the Threat/Finisher/Consequence combat system that MJ12 Commando posted the seeds of a while back?
I've got absolutely no idea, so I'll just post a video of the game.



Its a bit confusing, so I'll explain it. The vertical bar on each side of the screen is the EX meter, which allows you to enter your super mode when its full. The big number above the HP bar is your 'brave', roughly equivalent to Initiative in 3E. When you hit with an HP attack (which are announced by name at the top of the screen), this is how much damage you'll do. Below that is the HP bar, which is fairly self-explanatory. And below that is the Support bar, which allows you to summon another character to attack or take a hit for you. In between the characters stat bars is the 'stage Bravery', which is how much bravery you'll get if you Break the other player (reduce their Brave below 0).
 
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So it's kind of like Limit in most FF games? You max out a meter and inflict massive damage? Except apparently you can pop your attack at any point? I'm confused as all hell, but it sounds cool.
As I understand from what little I've read (and someone who's more informed can correct me if I'm wrong) Initiative is meant to represent the momentum of a fight. You have one attacking, while the other tries to defend. The defender can't do anything because they don't have the Initiative, and are too busy defending to offer an attack.

It's supposed to be based on the fact that, in most stories when a hero is fighting a non-mook, they generally trade blows without either getting more than a scratch, until one of them (through luck or skill) is able to get a decisive blow in.
 
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