Speaking entirely from personal experience, most people want the cool sword now instead of waiting for the GM to apportion it to them when they see fit.
General Exalted Thread
Speaking entirely from personal experience, most people want the cool sword now instead of waiting for the GM to apportion it to them when they see fit.
Maybe, but non-Story merits tend to be a whole lot weaker. Like, would your rather have a three-dot daiklave, or an extra three dice on feats of strength? Because they cost the same.
Anondylar
Lazy Tortoise
- Location
- Procrastinationville
This is probably a feature, not a bug. Instead of tossing aside your Artifact sword when you get a new shiny, you now have incentive to stick with it. It's not like you can't develop Solar charms of your own.
STs should totally let a player reforge/upgrade/repair their old Artifacts though.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
And the latest update resolves the fate of the Technique System.
Yep, so Mortal Martial Artists are basically no longer a concept to even try and make. Also, people with the Leak will get more content then people without it (they need to trim some fat from the text to fit shipping)
Now, here's a message from Holden about a part of the book not affected by this whole proofing process:
Hello, everyone. The final pieces of art are showing up, layout is happening, and Exalted's PDF release to you backers draws nigh. As we gear up to push this book out the door, I want to revisit one of the things we talked about during the Kickstarter: Martial Arts, and some of the changes they've undergone during development.
When we started developing Third Edition, we wanted to simplify the idea behind Martial Arts and use a holistic approach that emphasized that Martial Arts styles were rooted in schools and traditions across Creation. Thus, a mortal practitioner of Snake Style who Exalted as a Solar would find that his kung fu was suddenly as awesome as all his other aptitudes, as opposed to the old way of doing things where most of the styles in the setting were invented and practiced by a pool of 700 guys spread across the world yet somehow had schools and traditions anyway. This goal we accomplished to our satisfaction.
We also wanted to give Martial Arts styles additional depth with the inclusion of "techniques" – special maneuvers in each style that anyone could use, even mortal heroes. This excited a lot of people, including us—it sounded like an obviously good idea.
As it turns out… well, there's a reason why all the backer previews start with "this is a preview of a work in progress and may not match the final product." Unfortunately, techniques won't be appearing in Exalted Third Edition. The more we iterated them, the more we realized that they sounded like a great idea, with only the small problem that they didn't actually work. This was a result of several factors. First, in practice they were basically Charms, but Charms which couldn't be balanced with mote costs, and instead had to rely on timing restrictions, secondary resource costs, and the like. This was easy to deal with at first, but got progressively harder and harder with each additional style. By the time all the corebook styles were done, we were dreading the thought of trying to pile in another 100+ of the things over the course of the edition.
Second, once they were in place, we discovered that they made the old styles like Snake and Tiger and Dreaming Pearl Courtesan look archaic, since their Charms had been constructed without techniques in mind. If Snake (for example) had some fancy technique attached to it, why didn't it have Charms to enhance and work around that technique? We tried a new round of drafts that wove Charms around the new design space of the techniques, and while this was interesting, the resulting styles felt very complicated and bloated.
Third, martial arts styles have always been an easy content booster for Exalted because they add a lot of value with a relatively small wordcount footprint (historically, a Martial Arts style can be done, and done well, in one to two thousand words). The new styles not only gobbled up far more wordcount, they were much more difficult to write. Fourth, we realized that gambits (which you'll get to see soon), which were invented halfway into the iterating of the core rules, accomplished much of what techniques were supposed to do but in a more flexible and easily-balanced package.
Finally, other balance issues that cropped up during playtesting, combined with getting more and more distance from working on previous editions, convinced us to adopt a Martial Arts model that was more straight-forward and intuitive for new players, rather than a complex solution based around problems from prior editions (many of which no longer applied because of underlying system changes). At that point, we realized that not only did we not need techniques, but that they had become a problem rather than an asset for the game.
So we cut them. Everyone had something cool in their imagination when they heard about techniques—including us—but imagining a thing working is, sadly, not the same as actually making it work.
We apologize for any disappointment this may create, but we'd rather lay this design shift out for you now, rather than waiting until the book drops. The good news is, sans techniques, Third Edition does have martial arts that are stylish, available to all characters, effective (a Solar martial artist is not giving up power for coolness any more), affordable, well-rooted in the setting, and fun to use. This was our ultimate goal at the end of the day, not reaching that point by any one particular road.
As always, thanks so much for your support and patience!
Hello, everyone. The final pieces of art are showing up, layout is happening, and Exalted's PDF release to you backers draws nigh. As we gear up to push this book out the door, I want to revisit one of the things we talked about during the Kickstarter: Martial Arts, and some of the changes they've undergone during development.
When we started developing Third Edition, we wanted to simplify the idea behind Martial Arts and use a holistic approach that emphasized that Martial Arts styles were rooted in schools and traditions across Creation. Thus, a mortal practitioner of Snake Style who Exalted as a Solar would find that his kung fu was suddenly as awesome as all his other aptitudes, as opposed to the old way of doing things where most of the styles in the setting were invented and practiced by a pool of 700 guys spread across the world yet somehow had schools and traditions anyway. This goal we accomplished to our satisfaction.
We also wanted to give Martial Arts styles additional depth with the inclusion of "techniques" – special maneuvers in each style that anyone could use, even mortal heroes. This excited a lot of people, including us—it sounded like an obviously good idea.
As it turns out… well, there's a reason why all the backer previews start with "this is a preview of a work in progress and may not match the final product." Unfortunately, techniques won't be appearing in Exalted Third Edition. The more we iterated them, the more we realized that they sounded like a great idea, with only the small problem that they didn't actually work. This was a result of several factors. First, in practice they were basically Charms, but Charms which couldn't be balanced with mote costs, and instead had to rely on timing restrictions, secondary resource costs, and the like. This was easy to deal with at first, but got progressively harder and harder with each additional style. By the time all the corebook styles were done, we were dreading the thought of trying to pile in another 100+ of the things over the course of the edition.
Second, once they were in place, we discovered that they made the old styles like Snake and Tiger and Dreaming Pearl Courtesan look archaic, since their Charms had been constructed without techniques in mind. If Snake (for example) had some fancy technique attached to it, why didn't it have Charms to enhance and work around that technique? We tried a new round of drafts that wove Charms around the new design space of the techniques, and while this was interesting, the resulting styles felt very complicated and bloated.
Third, martial arts styles have always been an easy content booster for Exalted because they add a lot of value with a relatively small wordcount footprint (historically, a Martial Arts style can be done, and done well, in one to two thousand words). The new styles not only gobbled up far more wordcount, they were much more difficult to write. Fourth, we realized that gambits (which you'll get to see soon), which were invented halfway into the iterating of the core rules, accomplished much of what techniques were supposed to do but in a more flexible and easily-balanced package.
Finally, other balance issues that cropped up during playtesting, combined with getting more and more distance from working on previous editions, convinced us to adopt a Martial Arts model that was more straight-forward and intuitive for new players, rather than a complex solution based around problems from prior editions (many of which no longer applied because of underlying system changes). At that point, we realized that not only did we not need techniques, but that they had become a problem rather than an asset for the game.
So we cut them. Everyone had something cool in their imagination when they heard about techniques—including us—but imagining a thing working is, sadly, not the same as actually making it work.
We apologize for any disappointment this may create, but we'd rather lay this design shift out for you now, rather than waiting until the book drops. The good news is, sans techniques, Third Edition does have martial arts that are stylish, available to all characters, effective (a Solar martial artist is not giving up power for coolness any more), affordable, well-rooted in the setting, and fun to use. This was our ultimate goal at the end of the day, not reaching that point by any one particular road.
As always, thanks so much for your support and patience!
Yep, so Mortal Martial Artists are basically no longer a concept to even try and make. Also, people with the Leak will get more content then people without it (they need to trim some fat from the text to fit shipping)
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Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
I'm pretty sure we'll see the return of single effect artifacts. At least, that was something I saw thrown around (I think Holden was the one talking about it) for how to handle things like Gunzosha armor, and its the fastest way I can think of to handle things like beamklaves. You also see it a bit with things like GSS and Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. I'll also note that Wake the Sleeper, while immensely potent, also locks you out of learning more Evocations till you've payed off the ones you've awoken.
Also, if your really that worried about Iron Wolves' Grasp (personally, I'd worry more about Black claw Stylists) grab Immortal Blade Triumphant (now essence 3) and enjoy your immunity to disarms (which is what combat time stealing runs off). For more mundane stealing, have someone invest in Awareness (Awareness+Perception opposes thieving rolls usually). The sight tree of effect+SAM will cover you in most cases.
This is getting into the 'whats worthwhile to invest in' which is a tricky question. Personally, I intend to avoid the whole problem by carrying a few extra weapons ("I have stolen your daiklave! *Pulls knife free and runs him through* "That's nice, I'm still better at killing people with pointy objects then you'll ever be." *Takes daiklave back.*)
I'm not sure it is optimal, since its 'when the Storyteller feels like giving it to you' or 'once the crafter has ramped up enough to make it'. It also means no Evocations from chargen, which which could put you behind someone that does focus that way. The gap between artifact an non-artifact weapons is also much narrower then it was in 2e. You can get by with mortal weapons this time round.
Craft charms ahoy!
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sure it is.
Like, it's not as obviously superior a concept as it was before because mortal martial artists don't get a set of shiny special powers to use on their abilities, but it still works. A Snake Stylist is someone who can use the same ability to fight unarmed or with seven-section staves or hooked swords. That's not an enormous advantage, but it is still valuable - it gives you versatility another character can only match by buying into both Brawl and Melee.
earthboy
(verified ape)
- Location
- NYC
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Restricting ST ability to reward, and restricting player ability to improve, is a ~feature~!"
Nah. It's generous of you to try to cover for them, but I feel like that rule won't work for me.
Of course, I have to see the final product before making a definitive house-rule, but where things stand now, it looks like I'll do something like...
Invocation Slots
- You don't buy a specific Evocation. You buy a slot which can be filled by any Evocation you can access at the start of a story.
- At the start of a story, you fill your slots with Evocations from available Artifacts.
- You can leave a slot empty. Empty slots can be filled with Evocations from new Artifacts you find, as the story's circumstances permit.
- When a story ends, or when special circumstances permit, you can swap around some or all of your Evocations.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Except you still need to pay four merit dots to unlock the Martial Arts ablitiy, so it would potentially be cheaper for you to get both Brawl and Melee anyway! (Or just go sorceror, why bother staying mortal!).
I might need to houserule something. *goes to start planning*
Eh, I guess... but you still blew a 4-dot merit on it. Hardly seems worth it.
Edit: Ninjaed. It's four dots, though, not three. 12 experience will only get a mortal about 3 and a half ability dots, so I guess if you absolutely need to be a world-class expert with both swords and fists Martial Arts is a little cheaper...
Also, regarding mortal sorcerers: They're still mortal. Sorcery doesn't actually require a motepool; it runs of sorcerous motes, which you generate with shape sorcery actions right before you use them.
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notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Depends on the social contract at your table, for sure.
About three or four Evocations behind, on average.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
It's a four dot merit, and it requires a dot of brawl. With four merit dots, you can get a Dragonblooded who follows you around and fights alongside you, and that one dot of brawl isn't doing anything for you. Sure martial arts charms are nice, but are they as nice as an Exalted bodyguard?
Anondylar
Lazy Tortoise
- Location
- Procrastinationville
This could give Solars too much versatility though. The primary selling point of Artifacts appears to be that they allow Solars to go slightly out of theme. If they can swap that theme around semi-regularly...
Merge MA and Brawl, make each different Style a merit?
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, because they are both bought from different resources at chargen. A character can start the game with Snake Style 5 for 2bp, paying the 4-dot Merits from a pool of chargen Merit points which they already have anyway; a character starting the game with Brawl 5 and Melee 5 is spending twice as much Ability dots and 4bp to raise them above 3. Martial Arts is the more efficient choice.
Unless, of course, you want to do something else with those four Merit dots. Options! Versatility! A system where one choice isn't obviously superior from the get-go! I know how hard it is to wrap your head around that - 4chan has been on a kick of "I managed to find the One True Build of Ex3 - wait no this doesn't actually work" for days now. Eventually you'll come to terms with the fact that a Martial Arts-using mortal and a Brawl/Melee-using mortal are simply... making different choices with different opportunity costs.
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Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
*eyebrow raise*
Whose trying to find a one true build? I'm just pointing out that mortal martial artists have lost functionality from second edition and don't have anything to replace it. I mean if I was going to try and suggest a one true build, I'd simply point out that becoming a sorcerer is cheaper and more powerful then ever for a Mortal! Besides, I got bored and put together a rough idea on how to let mortals use martial arts charms for an investment anyway, that allows them to be the whole hidden teacher that a Solar might seekout to learn the capstone of the style from!
Its almost certainly a bad idea because I haven't had enough time to play around with the system, but hey I'm messing around anyway!
Martial Artist *** (Mortal Only/Repurchasable)
(Insert Fluff Here). Whether you've achieved it from dedicated training, an ascetic lifestyle or even as a gift from a benefactor, you've developed the ability to use martial arts. Each 'purchase' of this merit allows you to use a styles charms up to the number of purchases you have (So a martial artist with one purchase can use essence 1 charms of that style, essence 2 charms require two purchases and so on and so forth. Unlike the exalted who can power these charms through their own might, mortals who wish to wield such power need to 'gather the energy' to do so, in a similar manner to a sorcerer.
(ie use rituals based off the specific thing the style emulates to gather the motes needed to power the charms. You get one ritual when purchased and one more with every two times you purchase this merit).
(Insert Fluff Here). Whether you've achieved it from dedicated training, an ascetic lifestyle or even as a gift from a benefactor, you've developed the ability to use martial arts. Each 'purchase' of this merit allows you to use a styles charms up to the number of purchases you have (So a martial artist with one purchase can use essence 1 charms of that style, essence 2 charms require two purchases and so on and so forth. Unlike the exalted who can power these charms through their own might, mortals who wish to wield such power need to 'gather the energy' to do so, in a similar manner to a sorcerer.
(ie use rituals based off the specific thing the style emulates to gather the motes needed to power the charms. You get one ritual when purchased and one more with every two times you purchase this merit).
Just because there's no one true build (for mortals or otherwise) doesn't mean that some options aren't obviously bad. Martial Arts lets mortals fight with weapons or bare-handed, but that's a pretty marginal benefit to drop four merit dots on. Investing heavily in both Melee and Brawl is likewise obviously bad - there's just too much overlap. (Ergo being more efficient than that isn't much of a bragging point.) And there are some brawl weapons anyway, so it's not like buying only brawl locks you out of lethal damage or anything.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Honestly, I dislike the MA merit. Its just feels so... pointless. It has the same problem the Sorcery charms did in 2e, in that its a gateway purchase that doesn't actually do anything beyond being a gateway. Further there's really no reason for it to exist. It not like MAs are massive advantaged over Melee or Brawl, especially given how you inanely limit yourself to the styles weapons. It might have been a thing when techniques were around, but as it stands...
Thankfully, the solution here is fairly simple: remove the MA merit, and let Martial Arts to just be bought. Maybe allow certain Merits to become purchasable the more you invest in the style (for example, having 3 dots in Steel Devil lets you buy the Ambidextrous merit, or 3 dots in Single Point Shining into the Void letting you buy Quick Draw merit) or make a master martial artist type merit with a prerequisite of finishing a style, that reduces the cost of buying more MA styles that are linked to the ones he has mastered, but that's moving more into house rule territory.
Overall, I'd say my biggest issue is the MA merit is an XP tax, not the system itself. Something to cut down the XP tax for MA focused characters (not the dabblers who grab one style and then leave) would also be nice. Allowing certain Innate/Supernatural merits to be purchasable at certain levels of the style would be an interesting house rule if you want to play up the supernatural/transformative/training side of the Martial Art genre, without going into outright charms territory. It also very simple from a balance perspective, which is a definite plus!
Thankfully, the solution here is fairly simple: remove the MA merit, and let Martial Arts to just be bought. Maybe allow certain Merits to become purchasable the more you invest in the style (for example, having 3 dots in Steel Devil lets you buy the Ambidextrous merit, or 3 dots in Single Point Shining into the Void letting you buy Quick Draw merit) or make a master martial artist type merit with a prerequisite of finishing a style, that reduces the cost of buying more MA styles that are linked to the ones he has mastered, but that's moving more into house rule territory.
Overall, I'd say my biggest issue is the MA merit is an XP tax, not the system itself. Something to cut down the XP tax for MA focused characters (not the dabblers who grab one style and then leave) would also be nice. Allowing certain Innate/Supernatural merits to be purchasable at certain levels of the style would be an interesting house rule if you want to play up the supernatural/transformative/training side of the Martial Art genre, without going into outright charms territory. It also very simple from a balance perspective, which is a definite plus!
Matsci
Grash itsh griah! Rwar arr rawrrawrarar!
Hey, @EarthScorpion or @Aleph, I have a quick question about the Charm Fourth Soul Devil Domain from the Fourth Soul Rewrite.
It says "Prerequisite Charms: One Yozi Pantheon-keyworded Charm, one Yozi geomantic Charm". I can guess what a Yozi Geomantic charm is, but what charms are considered Pantheon Keyworded?
It says "Prerequisite Charms: One Yozi Pantheon-keyworded Charm, one Yozi geomantic Charm". I can guess what a Yozi Geomantic charm is, but what charms are considered Pantheon Keyworded?
I think that's a fine houserule, but I'm not sure if it's an essential one. Arguably, I'd say that a Solar fighting with Single Point Shining in the Void is a more competitive swordsman than one with just conventional Solar Melee. The SPSV form, for example, effectively makes you two combatants rather than just one.
EDIT: Honestly the extra taxes just seem to be there to justify the increase in power compared to conventional Solar Charms.
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Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Oh, its totally non-essential. A lot will come down to taste, and how you want to run your game, I think. but the core of that houserule alters... basically nothing. You still need to sink XP into Charms, and into the styles XP costs themselves. It just removes an annoying BP/XP tax. The other ones open up some advancement options, and cut down a bit on the XP sink that MA is to someone dedicated to learning multiple styles (SIDEREALS, though I'd guess they have their own mechanic for learning MAs).
(Also, on SPSitV: its competitive, but its a power hog of an MA, and its defensive options are rather poor compared to Solar Melee. If the person is setup to tank massive hits, your in trouble.)
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
And hey, Lunars and Sidereals get full use out of them as well!
- Pronouns
- she/her
This is basically a tautology, when obviously broken things are added things will be broken.
Well, Sidereals do, mostly. But in addition to the Celestial keyword (nerfs for DBs), there's the Mastery keyword (buffs for Solars and Abyssals). There's also mentions of "special initiations" used by monks of the Immaculate Order to get around Celestial, and Sidereals having "their own esoteric methods" of benefiting from Mastery, which sounds like Enlightening charms or some equivalent.
The only way I see to fix Exalted combat is to make it a roll-off with bonuses from available charms and sacrifices (get +3 to your roll at a cost of 50% of your total HP!).
That would make it 1) quick 2) balanced 3) leave much more details to imagination (which is a good thing because everything in Exalted runs on wild imagination)