But if you want to play an Apocalypse-style werecreature, it's just great for you.
Not really. Hell, I wish 2e Lunars had been werecreatures.

The werecreatures of Apocalypse have actual coherent themes, goals, and power sets. They are helped in this because they each have only one animal type they can focus on, and their story is set in a version of the real world, which brings certain kinds of thematic baggage to the table. This allowed the writers to decide that this is what wolves are about, this is what ravens are about, and so on, tying each werebeast up – with werewolves obviously being the forerunners – into a cohesive bundle.

Lunars have none of this. They can be any animal, which means they are no animal. They are just vaguely animalistic, in the sense that their generic powers have animal names. Even their animal totem – for all that it tends to come before "Caste" in terms of how players quickly define a new Lunar character – is a mechanical afterthought which either has no impact or warps your choices around it in a singularly unhealthy way (see: everyone is a tyrant lizard). Throughout 2e, Lunars didn't even have the nominal unity provided by a monolithic axiomatically-opposed world-spanning enemy, because rather than fighting the Realm/Pentex, they were busy playing Sim City: Jungle Book Edition.

All that 2e Lunars really share with Apocalypse is animal motifs and a penchant for bestiality. The latter is played for horror (mostly) in the Apocalypse setting, while with Lunars it's just this weirdly unaddressed background noise underlying every single of those massive beastman armies mustering throughout the 2e book. The only piece of material in the entire Second Edition to address the sheer industry that would be needed to catfuck your way to an army of tigermen was The Lair Of Ma-Ha-Suchi, an Ink Monkeys entry from Alan Alexander, which lavished attention on an elaborate pocket dimension rape camp which ultimately resembled nothing less than a petting zoo gone horribly wrong.
 
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It's weird, because shapeshifting in the 'become many specific kinds of animals' is totally something that does have themes and etc associated with them (in the real world mythologies at least, and you can transport and change that if you wanted to). They aren't 'werewolf themes' but...

*shrugs*
 
The werecreatures of Apocalypse have actual coherent themes, goals, and power sets. They are helped in this because they each have only one animal type they can focus on, and their story is set in a version of the real world, which brings certain kinds of thematic baggage to the table. This allowed the writers to decide that this is what wolves are about, this is what ravens are about, and so on, tying each werebeast up – with werewolves obviously being the forerunners – into a cohesive bundle.

Ah, by that, I was referring to the cliche of what non-Werewolf Fera games turned into, which was a disparate band of wereanimals hanging together and complaining that the Werewolves were keeping them down and it was all the werewolves' fault everything bad happened, not theirs. And also having furry sex. Often while being catgirls.
 
It's weird, because shapeshifting in the 'become many specific kinds of animals' is totally something that does have themes and etc associated with them (in the real world mythologies at least, and you can transport and change that if you wanted to). They aren't 'werewolf themes' but...

*shrugs*
I don't know if I agree. Mostly it's just something that gods can do, and even they sometimes require tools.

Loki can turn into a woman and a horse and both at once, but he needs to borrow Freya's feathered cloak, he can't just turn into a bird. Dwarfs and some trolls can shapeshift, and that's just something they do. The Greek gods are all fundamentally formless, so they adopt mortal shapes to descend to Earth, but sometimes these are people, sometimes they're animals, and sometimes they're showers of gold or gusts of wind. Hindu gods have countless different forms, which they can usually adopt at will. Divine curses can turn people into monsters and beasts, which is where werewolves come from in the first place. Maui can turn into animals because he's a god, it's just their thing. Most enchanters get into shapeshifting by way of supernatural disguise, because they are fundamentally conmen and illusionists who can be thwarted by a keen eye and a pure heart. Witches turn into animals because the devil has dominion over such beasts, and takes their skin while they wear an animal's hide.

At most you can say "tricksters, I guess", but that's never been the model of werebeasts that White Wolf subscribes to, and most actual mythological trickster niches are already occupied by the Night Caste or Raksha.
 
That's not really true - or fair.

I'll admit; it's ages since I read it, so that's probably true. I should have added the obligatory ":V" to make it clear I was joking.

It's trying, after the mess that was Exalted: the Lunars. It's just that... well, a lot of this is all due to the tumour that is Eclipse Charmshare. Because of Eclipses, they wrote the entire Lunar Charmset so it would be okay if a Solar learned it, and folded everything interesting you could possibly do with shapeshifting into Knacks. That's awful, because it gives Lunars a Solar-like Charmset. As a result, Lunars have a bland Charmset that's a subset of the Solar one, and a grand total of two and a half builds competitive builds (Turn into a werehybrid and claw them, turn into a werehybrid and fly and shoot them, and be very very attractive and socially attack people). MOEP: Lunars is largely functional, in a very, very bland way.

Well, I'd argue that Knacks are problematic as well. We have Knacks such as Green Sun Child that requires you to have Essence 4 before you can even think of taking the shape of a random First Circle Demon, or the terrifyingly powerful Luna's Hidden Face that allows you to attain such feats of mystic potency as eating a creature

with mutations


Knacks are functional in the sense that they work without shattering the game over their knee like Scroll of The Monk does, or functional in the sense that they don't make you question the sanity of the writer which is um, also done by Scroll of The Monk. They are not optimal, but they are certainly functional as you stated.

Admittedly, I am not really arguing against you here, more like; expanding on your point.

(TAW was a deliberate rejection of that, which is why the knacks and shapeshifting was simply integrated into Lunar Charms)

This is presumably done because approximately all issues with folding shapeshifting into Charms can be solved by going "Eclipses aren't going to learn non-Solar Charms, and I will hit you if you ask me again you stupid fuck". :V

On the top of that, the combination of Solar centric writing in the fluff and "trying to find something for Lunars to do" didn't help matters, but that's bluntly less important. Infernals demonstrates well-enough that as long as you have good, evocative mechanics, the players will just ignore the fluff and rewrite it. Bluntly, it's far, far easier for players to basically totally rewrite the fluff than the mechanics. And that's the problem with Lunars - it gives booooooooring mechanics and dull fluff.

But if you want to play an Apocalypse-style werecreature, it's just great for you.

This is why I'm arguing that everything is wrong with it. It doesn't let me play Lunars, it let's me play Apocalypse-style werecreatures who sometimes angst over the fact that Golden Husbando/Waifu isn't there to scratch them behind the ear and say that they are good boys. I ask it for giant armies of beastmen and it goes "go fuck some sheep", I ask it for Lunars that shape civilization and it goes "go play The Sims" and I ask it for Lunars who are defined by themselves and not by their contrast to the Sun-Chosen or the Star-Chosen or the Dragon-Chosen or the whatever-Chosen and it gives me five societies; of whom a total of two aren't defined by their relationship with something else.

It's mechanically functional, though dull and trite, but it doesn't have much to do with Lunars.

Admittedly, we still don't know what a Lunar is, given that the 1e book was shite and the 2e book was shite and I don't have many hopes for the 3e book either.

So let's spend the next twenty pages arguing what a Lunar even is. :V

(I propose that it's a special kind of cheese, that according to Immaculate philosophy, was eaten by the Anathema long ago and is therefore widely proclaimed heretical by Imperial Chefs.)
 
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GardenerBriareus Demon Homebrew: Nalthusuhtlan, The Hunter And His Prey
Behold! Two SCDs posted in as many days!

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Nalthusuhtlan, The Hunter And His Prey
Demon of the Second Circle
Reflective Soul of the Great Terror Worm



The Demon City has threats and pitfalls beyond counting, from the petty power struggles of its lowliest inhabitants to the devastation wrought by the Yozis themselves as they squirm and chafe under their confinement. Few who enter the depths of Hell survive without first educating themselves on the more common dangers they will find there.

Yet only the most dedicated scholars of matters demonic know to stand their ground when they see a formless presence rampage through the streets of Malfeas, and close their eyes as its quarry passes them by. The Hunter-Calling Hart, rare as its emergences into the more traveled thoroughfares of Malfeas may be, has claimed its share of less-educated mortals.

Birthed of the withered, atrophied almost-mind of the Great Terror Worm, Nalthusuhtlan is a manifestation of Ghalu-Than's awareness as a 'thing that is hunted', and so it is divided into both predator and prey. The former aspect is a harsh-edged outline burnt into the air itself, raucous and impetuous; the latter a pathetic, pitiful creature that radiates panic with every motion of its form.

However, any finer detail is dictated by the Hunter and His Prey's surroundings. In the avenues of the Demon City, it appears as the outline of a blood ape, roaring with fury as it pursues a fleeing stomach bottle bug. On Creation's seas it is the hollow echo of a fearsome shark, hot on the heels of a lowly minnow. As befits the product of such a feeble-minded progenitor, Nalthusuhtlan lacks the stability to find a form and meaning that it could call its own, and so contorts to match the world around it.

Notes and Abilities: The trap of the Hunter and His Prey lies in its lack of definition. Nalthusuhtlan's being extends beyond its physicality, invisibly flowing out and pooling around it and in the wake of its passing. To gaze upon it is to stand at the edge of a riptide, and nothing save proper preparations or immense spiritual power can save you from being drawn in and drowned by its endless hunting.

If a man flees before Nalthusuhtlan's predator-self, he will find himself hearing its movements and feeling its chill breath at odd hours and moments ever after, and all who do not cover their faces when its prey-self draws near will be haunted by the memory of its eyes gazing into their own. By interacting with the demon, they have allowed its Essence to take root in their own souls: in their dreams, they will see the Hunter and His Prey again and again, in a thousand forms and a thousand places.

As their affliction progresses, the memories of the hunt begin to impinge on the victims' waking moments, and at the next half-moon their bodies shrivel and fall apart in leathery strips, leaving behind a pair of demon-blooded spawn (birthed from the mingling of their own Essence and Nalthusuhtlan's) nestled among the bones. These hardy, unnatural children are born hunters, growing quickly and communicating among themselves without need of words or proximity, and so unscrupulous Sorcerers (or Ylagran cultists) often call up the Hunter-Breeding Hart, let it roam as it may, and then come along in a month's time to gather up the offspring it has left behind to raise for their own purposes.

Seldom does the Hunter and His Prey emerge into Creation unbidden, for it can only break free of Hell when a god of animals or hunting is run to ground and slaughtered by her own children. On such dark occasions, the fallen god's death-cries are answered by the alien call of Nalthusuhtlan, which then runs all throughout her former holdings over the course of a day and a night.

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So yeah, this guy is partially there as a first example of my personal homebrew for how to do demonblooded - which is to say, they're 'born' in weird and abnormal ways that make sense only within the rubric of the demonic parent. For example, you don't fuck a blood ape to make a demonblood child, you engage them in ritual combat followed by a shared feast of raw meat, and the blood shed over the course of the festivities congeals into a newborn. Meanwhile, if Yyrizesh has ever had a child, it was via art collaboration. The themes of the demon define how they procreate with mortals, not the reverse.

@TenfoldShields, I await your analysis.
 
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Here's a weird question. My girlfriend and I just got back into Guild Wars 2, and there's one profession in that that sort of intrigues me, the Mesmer. If you were going to make a character like a Mesmer (as in, inspired by, it's not a straightjacket I'm looking for but conceptual similarities in powers) what type of Exalted would they be?
 
Mesmers are tricksters. They fight with many clones and illusions, ricochet bullets off of rocks to hit people, use greatswords as lasers, and generally make their way disorienting/misdirecting people. So, probably what Imrix said, yes.
 
Those jokes are never fucking funny. How the fuck people manage to shove my entire bloody Country into one bloody punchlinei don't know, and it frankly sickens me.

This was the reason I didn't want to make the joke. :sad:

Because it's really insensitive and hurts people.

EDIT: I mean, I get stereotyped all the time, but being seen as a viking seems to be better than being seen as someone who has sex with sheep, so I wished I could say that I relate, but since I've never really experienced it, I can just say that I feel sorry for you and really glad that I did not make the joke in hindsight.
 
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I ask it for giant armies of beastmen and it goes "go fuck some sheep"

I really don't know why people focus on things like tigermen and wolfmen so much anyway when they think of beastmen.

If I was building a beastmen army of soldiers, I'd go for antmen. One of the few species whose natural strengths synergise with humans, rather than weaken them.

(The unfortunate side effect is that antmen soldiers and workers would probably all be lolis, because they're sexually immature females and antmen would be smaller than regular humans so their adults would be shorter than normal humans. Goddamn you anime.)
 
I really don't know why people focus on things like tigermen and wolfmen so much anyway when they think of beastmen.

If I was building a beastmen army of soldiers, I'd go for antmen. One of the few species whose natural strengths synergise with humans, rather than weaken them.

(The unfortunate side effect is that antmen soldiers and workers would probably all be lolis, because they're sexually immature females and antmen would be smaller than regular humans so their adults would be shorter than normal humans. Goddamn you anime.)

I was about to respond with "you can't fuck ants", but then I remembered the last response to such a statement:



Fucking thanks for searing that quote into my mind @ZerbanDaGreat.

Fucking thank you.
 
Those jokes are never fucking funny. How the fuck people manage to shove my entire bloody Country into one bloody punchlinei don't know, and it frankly sickens me.
Stereotypes are a pretty ancient staple of humor. The primary difference between a joke about Welsh people and a blonde joke, or any of the many, many other jokes where the punchline is basically "they're [part of the group being stereotyped]" is just what the group is.
Shit, half the jokes about gaming rely on stereotypes.

At least you can take comfort in the knowledge that the common stereotype about Wales is false and pretty commonly known to be. I'm American. When I hear jokes about Americans, I usually think "shit, I know someone like that".
 
All joking aside, what would be a good way for Lunar Exalted to start mass producing Beastmen? I like the idea of monstrous armies in the service of the Lunar Exalted but I recognize that the whole "sex with animals to breed an army" is more than a bit ridiculous. Does anyone have any solutions?
 
i read that novel

Bernard Werber is a strange man

I am not going to search for-

Okay who am I kidding? I'll totally go look for it just now.

All joking aside, what would be a good way for Lunar Exalted to start mass producing Beastmen? I like the idea of monstrous armies in the service of the Lunar Exalted but I recognize that the whole "sex with animals to breed an army" is more than a bit ridiculous. Does anyone have any solutions?

Cut out anything that resembles current Lunars and use the (very) early First Edition view of Lunars where they are princes of chaos and mad illusionists; your beastmen are your Raksha horde.
 
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All joking aside, what would be a good way for Lunar Exalted to start mass producing Beastmen? I like the idea of monstrous armies in the service of the Lunar Exalted but I recognize that the whole "sex with animals to breed an army" is more than a bit ridiculous. Does anyone have any solutions?
Mass slavery of Common Raksha. Possibly by beating some nobles over the heads with either swords or words.[1]

You could probably have some charm tech off that. Perhaps something that allows for you to protect Raksha against the influence of the pole of earth.
[1]Of note, you don't have to use them to make your beast men. You can also sell them to liger to rebuild a giant first age ship. Or calcify them into Wyld stuff and use that in the building of your city walls.

In short: Raksha are an excellent general purpose material.​


Edit: Sidreal'd by a dragonblooded. Gah.
 
The primary conflict with Lunars inevitably stems from just how White-Wolfy any given writer wants to approach the subject. Among all of them, they have the most to lose by how much "mature" (see: puerile) and "worldly" (see: presenting real-world social issues alongside genre-emulation as equivalents) and "dark fantasy" (see: sex-murder-dirtfarming) they want to make the material, usually in some misguided attempt to be seen as Serious Writing For Serious People. Because unlike some other Exalt types where the themes are solid enough to bolt additional "flawed/backwards" interpretations onto and broaden the spectrum of potential character concepts, they routinely narrow it down by coming back the tone-deaf nerd standby of continually going "okay so here is a porny fetish/weird contextless foreign custom I saw on the internet once, that should make a great set-piece/powerset because freak the normies, am I right guys."

So we always tend to get:

Exalted: "Here is a collection of magical outsiders and walkers-between-worlds who can be sympathetically cast as the folk-heroes and revolutionaries of marginalized and Othered third-world societies trying to hold out against militant imperialism and suffering under the hard realities of life outside of developed civilization."

Also Exalted: "Introductory chapter fic blurb, 'Obsidian Stallion had grown bored of negotiations, and idly scratched the base of his impressively girthy penis sheathe...'"
 
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