Also, you'd need to stop Dragonblooded falling for mortals, gods, Celestials, etc etc etc. And not rising up and trying to kill you because they were forced to abandon their non-Exalted childhood best friend.
... yeah, good luck with that.
General Exalted Thread
Also, you'd need to stop Dragonblooded falling for mortals, gods, Celestials, etc etc etc. And not rising up and trying to kill you because they were forced to abandon their non-Exalted childhood best friend.
... yeah, good luck with that.
What? No, that's not what I said at all. I said there are pretty normal moral systems that have these values; that, of the set of normal moral systems, some of them value life in this way. No implication is made or intended as to whether all normal moral systems do; if anything, I think I've implied that some normal moral systems don't value life in this way.
This is not any description of Malfeas that has ever been provided in any edition of the game. Malfeas exists as a setting to be visited; it is not a place of insta-Exalt-murder. In a lot of ways, Hell is probably safer to visit than Heaven; Hell has people who stand to gain more from cutting deals, and who are, by and large, much more vulnerable to reprisals.
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Yes, but that's Heaven's problem with how Sidereals are canonically presented and equipped capability-wise, not Hell's.
Hell has you having a vastly greater risk of being assaulted by a random gang of blood apes who want to fight you, kill you, and drink your blood. Or accidentally walking into a contested area between two warring lords. Or accidentally eating food contaminated with Metagoyin spores. And so on.
When you discount Sidereal gank squads, Heaven is vastly safer. For one, it's actually illegal to kill you in Heaven.
On the other hand, there's actual law enforcement capable of arresting you. For the average band of murderhobos, that is far scarier than a gang of mooks trying to shank you.
AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
One of the most important things, to me, is that Demon Summoning not be 'solvable'. If you somehow manage to abolish Demon Summoning, all you've done is trap them in a Death World. Trying to fix Malfeas to not be a Death World is tantamount to either freeing or 'redeeming' the yozi, feats of questionable possibility. Taking demons at of Creation and creating 'demon preserves' should carry a multitude of issues (especially if left to their own devices) but also the issue of it just being impossible to summon/beckon any amount of demons to even make a dent and creating some sort of stable portal would be effectively inviting a demonic invasion upon Creation (and likely to be treated as such by other actors in the setting).
- Location
- London, England
Can I just mention how much I love the fact that Yu-Shan has giant lion-gods made out of Orichalcum serving as law enforcement?
It's entirely tangential to the ongoing discussion, but I feel a need to express my appreciation for that part of the lore anyway.
Mostly because many of the Hollywood tropes and cliches regarding cops become much more entertaining when applied to six tones of walking god-metal.
It's entirely tangential to the ongoing discussion, but I feel a need to express my appreciation for that part of the lore anyway.
Mostly because many of the Hollywood tropes and cliches regarding cops become much more entertaining when applied to six tones of walking god-metal.
Haha, yes. Especially since the comics are fully aware of this and play it up.
- Location
- Virginia
In order for this to work you need at best indirect and at worst reverse causality.
If I Exalt, do my duty with my wife and produce a couple of pure-blood children, wait for them to Exalt, and then go out and father a bunch of bastards on mortals - what happens? Clearly my kids' Exaltations are not going to be somehow revoked. (If I'm old enough, he could have Exalted kids too - presumably their Exaltations aren't going to be revoked either.) So at best you are going to have to postulate some nebulous force that goes out and screws up the blood or seed of my descendents after the fact.
OK, sure. But we have a choice of what to call that force, and how it works. We could say "yup, having kids with mortals, that's the thing that does it. That's the thing that screws up your kids." And if your goal is to force every single story about the Realm to be "haha even Stormfront didn't guess how correct racism was!" then good job.
Or we could say that that force is the accumulated great deeds of your ancestors, the heroic legend attached to your bloodline, which is now a living thing made manifest in you through your Exaltation. This has a lot of advantages!
- It lets you tell really cool and satisfying stories about shame and redemption.
- It's actually much more mythical!
- It explains why the elders of Great Houses are so important - their failings could cast down every member of their House, not just politically but spiritually.
- We don't have to do the "must be maximally edgy at all times" thing.
If Malfeas is really about post-colonial societies then that makes the case even stronger for players actually caring about all the horrible things happening there. It makes the case even stronger for "putting this in and then making it 1000x the size of Creation makes it overshadow everything else".
Maybe this is useful in some way as political propaganda to get us to rethink our feelings about Africa or something. But, you know, a game probably ought to have other aspirations than making heavy-handed political points at the expense of fun.
Oh, to be sure. But the point remains: the game has never suggested that a visit to Malfeas is likely to be immediately fatal to Exalts. You could get jumped by a bunch of blood apes, assuming those blood apes are not too attached to their internal organs - but then, you could get jumped by a gang of mortal thugs in Nexus, too. Jokes about how likely that is to be deadly in 2e aside... like, this is within the scope of situations an Exalt can handle. You aren't safe anywhere; you can botch a Survival roll and eat hemlock in a random forest of the east, and Creation has a major religion, backed by an army of elemental supersoldiers, that wants you dead. Exalts in Creation are going to die. Exalts in Malfeas are going to die.
But living in either of these places is not what is typically termed a death sentence. It is not, as was originally suggested, suicide.
Stepping outside the narrative for a moment: it's actually pretty important that extended trips to Malfeas are not suicidal, because at the point that they are, every page spent on Malfeas is a wasted page. The setting exists to be used, and that means all those chapters about what the day-to-day culture of hell is like only have purpose if you can be part of that culture.
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Except it doesn't overshadow anything. It's too huge to be relevant, because it's too huge to be saved.
You can't save Malfeas. It's too big, just like Creation is so big that most stories can and should only focus themselves on a small part of it.
You can save groups of demons, however. You can build a haven for demonkind in Malfeas, safe from the oppression and calamity of the Yozis, or even lead an emigration to Creation, if they're of a breed (or simply individual preference) that can coexist with humanity. This is a good and worthwhile thing to do!
But, with the same time and effort, you could have been saving mortals from the oppression and calamity of Creation, instead. Probably more, and that's also a good and worthwhile thing to do. Even if you reckon demons as of equal moral weight to humanity, and I see no reason to argue that they aren't, that doesn't mean that saving them is more important just because there's more to be saved. It's simply a choice of who to help.
In fairness, the books are incoherent on absolutely everything to do with Dragon-Blooded reproduction. Per the books:
1) the Realm's DB population is roughly stable,
2) Realm DBs almost always have children at least once a decade or so, and
3) Realm DBs have a lifespan measurable in centuries, barring accident or violence.
Together, these imply that either:
4) The rate of new Realm DB Exaltations from all sources is astronomically low, on the order of 0.15% the current population per year, or
5) The attrition rate of Realm DBs is astronomically high, on the order of "Half the people at your ten year high school reunion are dead."*
Both are contradicted by the books.
* - Or, yes, some mix of both, but the problem is that the book denies that either of these things are at all true. There are enough new DBs per year to be the majority population in ~5 different major academies; two-thirds of DBs live to retirement at something like age 150. This is flatly - hilariously - impossible; any kind of statistical model accepting these as truths suggests that Creation is currently crushed under the weight of a hundred billion Dragon-Blooded.
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- Location
- Spain
Sure.
The problem is, when the typical demon lord domain is described as populated by five hundred million demons, and there are basically infinite demons without a lord around, you have to ask yourself why you are putting so much effort taking control of a mid-sized kingdom where you could be ruling over a billion demons.
Or you could look at what's going on and what's being said, rather than invent stuff out of whole cloth. I mean, let's look at the above example: you have some high breeding kids, and some low breeding kids. Then at some point the high breeding kids start to marry with other low breeding kids, and now the results are lower breeding. And so on and so on. The destruction of the bloodlines is over the long term, which is consistent with how it's been portrayed over the line. So, no, your 'at best' scenario isn't really descriptive of what people are saying.
That's not as much of a problem as you might think. Because if, technically-speaking, the character is both someone inclined to rule over demons than mortals simply on the basis of having more bodies onhand, feeling no cultural or communal connection with everyday humans which are possible to relate to, discuss normal topics with, organize and govern in typically human ways, and sees those demons as having more inherent moral value to them as a force to be ruling over, then there is nothing stopping that Exalt from doing so, and the process self-selects Exalts out of Creation who have no real reason to fight for it or its people in the first place.
If you don't identify strongly enough with your fellow man, your homeland, your culture or traditions that "better to rule in Hell" ends up becoming the optimal situation for you, then its not going to matter what the Demon City's relevance to Creation is either way.
I do find it pretty funny though that Autochthonia never factors into these discussions despite having just as many 'deciding factors' in common with Malfeas, including a high mortal population in an incredibly hostile place of certainly-doomed circumstances, staffed by an indescribably vast number of automata-spirits consigned into managing outrageously complex mechanical systems at the cost of their own lives, and yet no one is tripping over themselves to justify out forcibly cracking open the Seal as a moral victory, funneling the Eight Nations back out into Creation and subverting as many machine gods as they can to help usher in a new industrial revolution.
Because Autochthonia is just sitting there waiting to be saved by an unforeseen benevolent ruler, right?
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AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
...wat.
Why are you assuming it would somehow be EASIER to rule a billion demons and not, say, harder, because it's such a dangerous volatile place and demons themselves by they're very nature are even more predisposed to chaos and disorder than humans.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Stop trying to use the Socratic Method. That usually only works when you have an actual point.
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azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
Because I can just knock a king off their throne, make speeches, and beat faces over the course of a couple years to take control of the mid-sized kingdom, and I can also take time off to go do fun things while I'm in charge of it.
Not so much with a kingdom of a billion demons.
The stress of running a nation of just 300 million people ages you like crazy.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
No it just requires you to understand they are writing a game first and a coherent setting second. The latter helps the former, but is not required. The former informs the latter.
Exalted as a game is all about making heavy-handed political points as part of the fun.
Exalted is like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You know how Buffy was all about typical American high school problems only bigger because demons! Well, Exalted is all about acerbic socio-economic historical criticism. But bigger because kung fu!
- Location
- Ottawa
One odd consequence to having trillions of demons is that Malfeas ends up with a really low density of genuinely powerful beings. Thirty Yozis, thirty souls per Yozi, seven souls per soul...that's only 6300 2CDs.
Even assuming ten significant behemoths and other such things per 2CD, in a Malfeas with 1 000 000 000 000 000 demons the peer-level-opposition-to-1CD ratio in Malfeas is lower than the Chejop-Kejak-to-mortal ratio in Creation and Yu-Shan together.
Maybe they were meant as one. But the authors and fans alike seem unable to commit to that. Sometimes the scathing rebuke of imperialism seems like imperialism itself.
I'm inclined to write the whole attempt off as a too-clever failure.
And honestly, I like my take on its own merits. I think taking power from the heroism of your ancestors is cooler and more gameable than taking power from their lack-of-interbreeding-with-regular-people.
First, I don't think this situation is analogous at all.
Second, that comic sucks.
"A benevolent super-dictator who wants to help everyone is a terrible thing. What we need is a totally selfish super-dictator who's doing it all to feed his own ego!"
It would have been so much better without the bizarre Luthor-worshipping ending. And without the supposed geniuses acting like idiots all the time.
To be honest, that post doesn't apply very well to the thread as a whole. It was aimed at one specific comment chain. I don't actually think Exalts who focus on Creation-born problems are bad people.
Still, I do think that having that many demons creates weird implications on a variety of moral and practical levels.
Presumably it wouldn't.
But it might make sense to say that after creating an embryo with the potential to Exalt, you need time to recover your Essence before you can do it again. During that time, any children you conceive will just be mortal. It would put a cap on the Exalt output of a Terrestrial man.
Then again, maybe there's no point. Do we really need to make an effort to shoot down the Exalt-manufacturing advocates in-setting?
Bursting Eagerness Soul
Threadwalking Rating Machine
- Location
- Wisconsin
Alright, let's break this down to math. For this, we're going tosimplify and assume that a kids Breeding rating is the average of their parents' Breedings. If you start out with a core group of Breeding N/A (mathematically treated as 6) DBs, there are only two ways this can go. Either they can have kids with each other, producing a new generation of Breeding N/A DBs, or they can have kids with Breeding 0 mortals in any proportion, producing a new generation with an average Breeding rating anywhere between 3 and 5.9 repeating. Since Breeding N/A is the only way to guarantee Exaltation and Breeding also influences power, you now have a generation that may or may not Exalt, and if they do, will be less powerful on average. And this will compound as you keep going, unless you introduce a new population of Breeding N/A Dragonbloods.
In Exalted canon, the first scenario happened for about the first few hundred years of the High First Age, and was enforced by the both the Solar Deliberative and Dragonblooded cultural pressure. It was seen as your cultural and spiritual duty to produce only Dragonblooded children, and having a kid who didn't Exalt was basically on the same level as having a kid with two heads. Now, the Dragonblooded were kind of unhappy with this, because people are people and love a wide array of other people. So, the laws against it were repealed and the the second scenario started to take hold. It then compounded over the next several thousand years, leaving us with the current situation of Exaltation chance being basically a coin toss unless you have the Empress or her kids directly involved.
Tl;dr, as mortals breed in, Exaltation becomes both less likely and less powerful on average as time goes on.
Sorry for any incoherence, I'm typing from my phone on my lunch break. Also, I'm not here advocating for one side or another as morally correct, just pointing out that it does have an effect on the superpowers.
Because you, the character, probably care more about and identify more with the humans than the literal demons from another realm of existence
Kinda looks like a Warden Soul as much as a Defining one, honestly. What does Ululaya's actual Warden look like? Or does she simply not have one because Nidamento keeps that spot occupied?
My personal solution to this dilemma: Stop overinflating the importance of a single Exalt so much.
An example calculation:
Yes, Solar Bob is a glorious demigod, able to shatter armies and mountains alike with contemptuous ease.
There's also 149 other Solars, who are all exactly as (potentially) powerful as he. There's that number again in Abyssals and Infernals, which are again exactly that powerful. The Lunars number as much as all of these combined, and (bad writing aside) they're still similar enough in power that the difference, if any, can be dismissed as a rounding error. Plus one hundred Sidereals, again just as powerful in their own weird way, for a grand total of seven hundred invincible demigods that can nominally warp the world around them as they please.
This statement contradicts itself, because all of these people are inevitably going to have contradicting ideas of what the world should look like, and none of them can ever be singularly powerful enough to single-handedly sweep aside all his rivals and what they want, which means that as soon as one of them has enough power to influence the world as a whole, barring a unified Exalted Host, a multi-campaign-winning archievement in itself, he's going to have many times his number in equally powerful enemies out for his blood, who by weight of numbers will succeed eventually, after which they'll happily go back to each other's throat over their own mutually contradicting ambitions.
This is ignoring the tens of thousands of Terrestials, whose combined weight is (or should be) again fully equal to the combined weight of those seven hundred Celestials. It is also ignoring the, again, hundreds of Third-Circle-alike spirits (demon, god, elemental, ghost, raksha), and tens to hundreds of thousands Secon-Circle-alikes, all of which are nominally of equal power to the Celestial and Terrestial Exalts one-on-one, as well as the arbitrarily huge number of First-Circle-alikes and the roughly estimated hundreds of thousands of Enlightened Mortals, or other, weirder things, which are admittedly quite a bit less powerful than any of the aforementioned individuals, but are still by no means helpless, especially if they have numbers or maturation-induced power refinement and growth on their side, or if nothing else helps, they can buy the assistance of one out of the other groups.
You cannot have all of the above, and then say that any single individual can warp the world however he wishes, by definition. You cannot even say that any single group composed of the above can meaningfully exert their will over the others, unless they're big enough to encompass a notable plurality of the whole, like it happened in the Primordial War or the Usurpation.
This brings us to the second thing, the Thousand Dooms of Creation, all of which have to be specifically averted by you and only you, because you are the chosen one and only you have the power to deal with it. You don't. There's literal, depending on where you stand, thousands to hundreds of thousands of chosen ones who can deal with it, scattered all across the worlds in every place worth mentioning and preserving. You're a big fish, true, but your pond is still so much bigger by orders of magnitude that even if you trash all that you can, at the far shore all the ripples that you caused will be background noise at best.
Worry about preserving your own slice of the world, the other guys will take care of the rest. If you let your threatened treshold kingdom into the wyld to go haring off after other crusades to wage and places to safe, chances are that you'll merely be an unnecessary distraction to the native guys who are working on and entirely capable of preserving their own, while at worst you'll interfere with each other's plans so much that the entire thing devolves into a pissing match over which plan has more blackjack and hookers while the actual problem goes on unsolved, and even in the best case where you actually saved some other kingdom your own home is still toast, so it's still a wash.
Granted, not all of the actors named above are actually very good at the whole 'saving their own slice of Creation' bit by our own modern first-world standards, but they'll at least be somewhat passable. If nothing else, can't have adoring mind-eaten slaves and delicious food-cattle if they all die off to some cause unrelated to you because you were too lazy to take care of it. So they will take care of their own slice of Creation enough for it to continue existing, and that also means to keep out any competitor whose plans would disrupt their domain to the point of non-usefulness to them.
Let's look at the examples of people trying to or suceeding at leaving their mark on Creation as whole in some kind of fashion (which would quite likely have been seen as Doom events by their opponents).
1. Primordial War; Suceeded, The Exalted Host and a part of all the Spirits sucessfully defeated the larger rest of all the Spirits.
2. First Age nearly getting destroyed by the Solar's hybris; Failed, Sidereals, Dragonbloods, Spirits and possibly Lunars sucessfully prevented the Solars from acting out too much.
3. The Usurpation; Suceeded, Dragonbloods and Sidereals successfully ganked all the Solars and a large part of the Solars.
4. The Contagion; Failed, the plague got first stalled by the Exalted, then derailed by the Wyld and the Pole of Wood, and the Deathlords didn't have the initiative to capitalize large-scale.
5. Balorian Crusade; Failed, the Raksha got stalled by the remaining Exalted until the Empress could nuke them with the Sword of Creation.
6. The Scarlet Dynasty; Succeeded, Dragonblooded with Sidereal guidance and the SoC successfully displaced the remaining Lunars and Fae as well as any dissenting Dragonbloods to become the reigning world power.
In all of these there's a pattern that the inciting party was only successfull in their plans if they had at the very least a notable plurality of all the available powerful people, weighted by individual prowess.
Contrast the current age:
The Deathlords spend far more time sabotaging each other and following their own hobbies than on actually ending Creation, the Raksha are too big drama-queens to ever follow another's doomsday story without trying to take the wheel and make it their own story and will literally backstab each other as soon as it's dramatically appropriate, the Realm's in civil war, Heaven too corrupt to do anything, don't even mention Malfeas and it's literally hellish powerplays and infighting, even Autochtonia is divided, the Lunar's Silver Pact even if you take it at face value is too loosely organized to accompliish much of anything, and the Solars don't have enough common identity and goals beyond 'avoid the Wyld Hunt' to even have a faction worth naming in the first place.
None of the larger factions are exactly unfied any more than they have to be to not die immediately, especially not the ones whose overarching plans come the closest to 'end of Creation as we know it', and even then they don't hold enough monopoly of power to really enact their chosen doomsday or victory scenarios large-scale.
Quite frankly, if anyone tried their hand at enacting a doomsday or global victory scenario of any kind without having the majority of Essence-Users in the worlds under their banner, I'd expect their attempt to last exactly long enough for everyone else to get their shit together and slap them upside the head before promptly going back to their usual bivkering among themselves. You, the player, are not needed anywhere unless plot fiat demands that there be a you-shaped hole in the solution to the current crisis that no one else is available and willing to squeeze themselves into.
To go back to our original point and what this means for it:
The reason you should worry about your own Treshold Kingdom is that you're there, it's your own responsibility, and your subjects depend on you to protect them. Meanwhile in Malfeas, the local demons are adapted well enough, and even if they're not immediately subject to and protected by a 2C, will still have ways to deal with the problems.
If Kimbery floods a layer, you're going to get demons praying to her and drinking her waters in order to be adopted and changed until they're able to survive in her, you're going to have demons build boats and Arks, flying demons aren't going to care overmuch anyway, some of the larger communities with access to citizens more powerful than the average demon are going to build dykes and drainage channels and floating houses, and everyone else will know to keep careful watch on when their more informed and aware members start running.
Yes, the death toll will still be horrific by most any standard. But as a whole, the local demons will be able to cope, if they couldn't then Natural Selection would have long since ensured that they'd gone extinct. Yes there will be failures and bad days where the survival rate approaches zero, but just as often luck or a sufficiently powerful 2C will save the day, enough so that on average, if while running after days to save you show up and start commandeering resources for your own rescue plan away from all the individual demon's rescue plans over which they will quite understandably grow quite angry, you'll fight so much that the entire thing fails at least partially.
Your own Treshold Kingdom meanwhile got stomped by a Wyld incursion because the Realm Legion deployed to take care of the problem in your absence didn't care enough to protect it, or if they did it was in return for becoming a Protectorate and thus ceasing to be your property and responsibility.
TL,DR; Creation doesn't revolve around you anymore than it does around the literal thousands of people who are equally as powerful as you, and every crisis will generally be solvable in some fashion by someone. You can zoom in on that crisis and have that someone be your PC, but if you don't, some other guy will fill in while you do your own thing. Creation as a whole is meanwhile stuck in a Kingmaker balance-of-power Quantumstate to the power of a dozen, and it will remain that way until you, the player, amass enough power and followers to resolve it and declare a king of your choice, or until your GM fiats whatever he needs to keep the local plot going if you just never bother.
Granted, the canon writing does not exactly support the view that Exalted importance shouldn't be overblown in both fluff and crunch, but I believe the locally prevailing opinion points to canon writing as the thing that has to be changed to make things fit here.
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- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
look man you gotta be seeing stars if you think im joking here
have you been facing too much adversity recently?
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Enhenhenh again nubile virgin over here, my tabletop anus un-prolapsed by the winebottle that is Scroll of the Monk or Return of the Scarlet Empress or the 4 Credit Hour course you need to take to make the combat system work, but with that disclaimer out of the way I don't think this says the right things about the Dragonblooded? Like the Dragonblooded were made to essentially be a race of super soldiers and kick-ass support staff. They're muscle. The Solar's gauntleted arms and power armored feet. They do a lot of the heavy lifting and shoring up and less glamorous work so that Solar Steve can look good posing on the prow of his anatomically correct ten story tall Warmech. You don't really want them to key into some fluffy, feely stuff like "well the heroism of your bloodline" you want them to be...you want them to be regular. Regular and repeatable. If they hit X critical mass of divine dragon-blood then they Exalt with Y margin of error. There. Done.
Heroic distinction feels like it's impinging more on what the Solars were for. Solars were the unique individuals. The Great Men of many Randian wet dreams. Each one standing head and shoulders above even the other great heroes of the time. Dragonblooded aren't like that. Dragonblooded were made to function in units, in teams. A DB isn't just their words and their deeds but the accumulated words and deeds and reputation of their family. You are your squad. Your squad is the army. You are your family. Your family is the clan. They're made to work in aggregate and the eugenics style stuff supports that along with other elements of their culture (like the heavy hierarchical bits). And it's a neat facet that sets them aside from the Solars and Lunars and what have you: they're a collective that is always greater than the sum of their parts.
And yeah I mean...I'm sorta okay with that having some icky connotations? I mean not on the scale or in the style of "so the dragonblooded fuck around like zeus on ecstasy CONSENT WHAT'S THAT?", I don't think that really makes sense or contributes anything but making Exalted grimderp(er) to prove some weird point. But more in the vein of individual erasure, subsumption of the person into the collective, For the Good of the Family. All that discomforting, suffocating, and sometimes really maladaptive stuff that comes from a society that values you more for your clan name and genealogy than you as a person. And the good that you do glorifies yourself, yeah, but your family first and foremost.
And your failings are no longer personal either.
You can't really do that if what fuels them is solely the legendary deeds of some notable ancestor that you can name. Or, I mean I guess you can but you're kinda neutering it on the one hand and kneecapping the whole "whole greater than the sum" thing and it's sorta circuitous so why even? You're not really making them act like a bunch of lost superweapons trying to make a society.
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Well, Dragonblooded have some conflicting influences there. You're not wrong that those are elements in their design, but they're also very much "What if all the fuss around nobility, around rightful rulers and divine right passed along from parent to child, etc was all actually true." And the idea of it being based on the heroism of your family, of the deeds of your ancestors reflecting on you and vice versa, fits right in there.
So it sorta depends on what elements of DBs you really want to focus on. I find the "lost superweapons trying to make a society" pretty superfluous to their appeal, myself, but obviously not everyone does.
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- Location
- Spain