Because of limit gain, or because it encroaches on the eclipses anima?
Fuck the 2E Eclipse anima, it was bad.
First, it made Solars encroach onto the territory of every other splat. That's not even needed for a "Solars are the strongest" effect, and has basically no other benefit
Second, it introduced a huge amount of rules problems, from the outright gamebreaking (such as Principle of Motion) to just annoying things.
Third, that lead to silly design restrictions as designers realized that this was a problem, and tired to work around it instead of fixing the Eclipse Anima.
And fourth, we have the worst bit. This didn't even do a good job at giving Eclipse-castes the stylish "get powers from pacts with spirits" thing. The whole point of that anima power, and it went so far beyond that in most games, that effect got missed entirely.

It wouldn't even have been hard to fix, and 3E did so well enough. Now you can only ever learn charms with it that are explicity labeled as "Eclipse" charms, and so far they've only done so for spirit charms that do cool things and have little mechanical interaction.
You can get the intruder-sense power of a Dog of the Broken Earth - working within the territories of such gods only, too.
You can get a field gods power to make wheat grow and harvest it really quickly.
You can get a Storm Mother ability to call up a storm, and get to call down some lighting that won't interact with any of your Solar charms.
You can learn to self-immolate from a Garda Bird, without any resurrection as the elemental gets, though it's also good in combat if attacked by a lot of mook (the charm doesn't kill you).
You can learn to make your anima leave rainbow trails in the water. Which adds to a minor bonus for ships that follow you, unless you use it to confuse them, then it's a minor penalty.
You can learn a Neomas shapechange. Which only tailors you to the desires of one specific person, giving you +2 appearance towards that person only without stacking with any other such increases. And the disguise-aspect loses out to low-hanging Larceny charms.
You can learn to clothe yourself in pitch-black light artifact armor, though of course that costs as many motes as you'd pay for attunement. This also gives you a pretty good counter-attack though, being one of the combat-strongest eclipse charms.
That's all stuff that is cool and even useful, but at no point does having an Eclipse-charm make you better at Solar stuff than a Solar charm would, they generally don't stack - and the charms you get do evoke interesting things. Just as the Eclipse-anima should be.

If you want to use the Eclipse anima in 2.5, just forget about the "native" key word. Instead, just use the following:
You can never ever learn charms of other Exalt types.
You can only learn charms that are based off the cool, evocative stuff that spirits can do. No dematerialize, no principle of motions, no other basic charms like that. A Forest God might teach you how to pass immaterially from tree too tree, with a vulnerability to those trees being cut down, a range limit and so on. A Cloud Bear might teach you how push clouds and to ride them - which is equivalent to Cirrus Skiff anyway. A ghost might teach you how to curse someone, which will probably be at most as bad as a terrestrial circle spell that curses someone would be. And so on.
Yes, that requires some homebrew where you can't just steal an appropriate charm as-is. But it's infinitely better as the 2.5 Eclipse anima even with the native keyword.
 
Infernals Charms were made by people who understood how 2e's system worked and were tuned specifically for it. When 2.5 came along, they were significantly weakened because the system didn't work the same.
Speaking of which, I noticed this hadn't been posted...unless it had and I just missed it. Long story short, a couple years ago, just awhile after 2.5 came out, Robert Vance--one of the writers--posted this with permission from up top; it was an in progress errata for Infernals. By his own admission, it doesn't come close to fixing them since the project got cut to work on 3E, but it was meant to help some. And it...it's...

...It has some neat ideas!

In all honesty, some of it's pretty good, for what 2.5 Infernals had to work with. It's just that some of the design decisions were...questionable to say the least. I'll just post it here so everyone can see it:

Errated Charms from Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals

(Yozi) Mythos Exultant

Malfeas
: The Demon Emperor works his wrath through the sheer power of his terrible will, calling boundless power out of hatred and fury. A stunt enhanced by this Charm allows the Green Sun Prince to pay a point of Willpower in place of up to (Essence) motes when activating an Excellency of Malfeas to enhance the stunted action.

Cold Fire Desolation Brand
Cost:
— (+2m)

Inflicting Final Viridescence with the Essence 5+ effect of this Charm increases the surcharge to +4m.

Vitriolic Corona Endowment

Disregard the Charm's first purchase entirely; purchasing this Charm grants characters the ability to conjure an infernal lance. The Charm has no second purchase. While wielding the lance conjured by this Charm, the Infernal gains a single offensive mote each time his DV refreshes while he is joined in combat.

Wrath-Stoked Bonfire Soul
Cost:
— (+5m)

Scorpion-Tailed Mirage Technique
Cost:
4m
Prerequisite Charms: Sand-Slip Trick

The cost of this Charm is not reduced when the Infernal is in a place of desolation. The Essence 4+ effect does not require a repurchase to use and adds a surcharge of two motes and a point of Willpower to this Charm's cost.

Sandstrike Blast

The sandstrike blast has the Overwhelming tag, with minimum damage equal to the warlock's (Essence), maximum 5.

[BEGIN BOXED TEXT]
Imperfection of the Principle of Hierarchy

The tenets and patterns of She Who Lives In Her Name give order and stability to a universe of mad chaos. That which she understands is less than her, and so unable to harm her. Against a type of entity which the warlock is not familiar with, whether it is an exotic species of animal, an Exalt of a type she has only heard rumors about, or a singular anomaly of the Wyld, a Charm bearing this Imperfection cannot be used to defend against the first attack made by such an enemy in a scene, and suffers a three-mote surcharge against subsequent attacks. Additionally, unexpected attacks and attacks enhanced with Charms or magic the warlock is unfamiliar with also incur a three-mote surcharge, unless made by a creature of the Wyld. These surcharges never stack.
[END BOXED TEXT]

Mind-Hand Manipulation

All of the attack options granted by this Charm ignore Hardness from armor and have minimum damage 3. Rate is capped at 5.

Will-Crushing Force

Draining Willpower with this Charm only requires the Infernal to forgo one level of damage in Step 10, not all levels. She can still only drain one point of Willpower with each damaging attack.

Kalmanka's Grace
Cost:
3m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 2)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Velocity
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Wind-Born Stride

Replace the text of this Charm with the following:

The Infernal waltzes and pirouettes through sky-darkening tempests of arrows, untouched and seemingly oblivious to their passage. Kalmanka's Grace adds two to the Infernal's Dodge DV against an attack. Against ranged attacks made from outside the Infernal's engagement range, this bonus rises to her (Essence). These bonuses do not count towards the maximum DV limit. This Charm cannot be activated at speeds less than dashing at maximum rate.

Successfully defending against a ranged attack with this Charm allows the warlock to reflexively move up to her full dashing speed towards the attacking character as a counterattack in Step 9.

Laughing Gust Denial
Cost:
— (+3m)

Using the Essence 5+ effect of this Charm increases the surcharge to three motes and a point of Willpower.

Damning Petulance Technique

Actions enhanced by a two-die stunt have their target number increased by one, rather than being unaffected. Damning Petulance Technique can be used to affect damage rolls, increasing their target numbers based on the stunt rating of the attack roll that preceded them.

Life-Blighting Emptiness Attack

The additional damage of this Charm ignores Hardness from armor, and cannot be reduced below the minimum damage of the supplemented attack by soak. Any motes stolen by this Charm must be added to the Infernal's Overdrive pool as offensive motes. If he does not have an Overdrive pool, they are lost.

Bloodless Murk Evasion
Keywords:
Combo-OK, Obvious

Bloodless Murk Evasion can be activated in response to Holy attacks. Doing so provides no defense against the attack, but allows the Infernal to teleport away from the attacker as a counterattack in Step 9.

Errataed Charms from the Broken-Winged Crane

Firefly Arrowhead Grip
Cost:
– (+2m)

Replace the text of the Charm with the following:

When one is fast enough to sidestep arrows, catching them is easy as plucking insects from the air. The warlock can pay an additional two motes when activating Kalmanka's Grace to apply its bonus to both her Dodge and Parry DVs. Such activations allow her to parry lethal ranged attacks unarmed, and successfully doing so allows her to catch the projectile and reflexively ready it as a weapon.

At Essence 4+, parried projectiles may be caught and "carried" in eddies of wind spinning around the Exalt. Such items may be knocked from their irregular orbit with a successful disarm attack and may be grabbed and wielded by the warlock as if they were stored on her person. More importantly, the warlock can reflexively hurl all captured projectiles into an enemy to enhance a close combat attack, with each item adding one die to the attack roll (up to the normal limits for Charm bonuses) and two to the attack's raw damage. Projectiles exceeding this limit still fly at the target, but to no additional effect. Hurled missiles then drop to the ground, no longer held by Firefly Arrowhead Grip.

Beauteous Carnage Incentive

Replace the text of the Charm with the following:

With experience of the world, Adorjan's appetite to share enlightenment only grows. This Charm grants the Infernal an additional 10-mote pool of Peripheral Essence. Whenever a scene of combat ends, the warlock may transfer any offensive motes in her Overdrive pool into the pool granted by Beauteous Carnage Incentive, converting them into regular motes.

Fond Remembrance of Adrián

The counterattack granted by this Charm ignores both soak and Hardness from armor. It has a minimum damage of 2.

Sweet Agony Savored

Replace this Charm in its entirety with the following:

Wickedness Made Law
Cost:
—; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Selfishness is Power

The Ebon Dragon reviles the laws and customs of man and god alike, seeing them for the shackles they are. It is his nature to test and corrupt them, taking perverse satisfaction in the discovery of their faults and flaws. This Charm grants the Infernal an additional 10-mote pool of Peripheral Essence. The Infernal can fill this pool by perpetrating acts of depravity, or by manipulating others into doing so. Such acts are those that would cause shock, outrage, or scandal according to the common mores of Creation's dominant culture (currently the Realm) or the dominant culture in which the act occurs. Each hour spent in depravity adds a number of motes equal to the Magnitude of the social unit within which the misdeeds took place.

[BEGIN BOXED TEXT]
<3> Charm Concept: Acts of Depravity
An act of depravity is defined as any act which would cause shock, outrage, or scandal according to the common mores of Creation's dominant culture (currently the Realm) or the dominant culture in which the act occurs. Murder, adultery, rape, incest, theft, violent assault and disrespect toward the Terrestrial Exalted on the part of mortals are all examples of acts of depravity within the Realm, and are thus applicable wherever the Charm is used. More specific acts of depravity might include rudeness to an Essence 6+ divinity (if the Charm were used in Yu-Shan), enslavement of citizens of Nexus (if used in Nexus), or disobeying a superior officer (if used in Lookshy)
[END BOXED TEXT]

Spiteful Sea Tincture

Only one dose of poison can be transmitted per attack. No more than (Essence) doses of poison created by this Charm can exist simultaneously; creating new doses over the limit causes the oldest one to dissolve into harmless seawater. The Essence 3+ repurchase improves the traits of the created poison, but does not make it Sorcerous or alter its duration.

New Charms

Maimed But Unbroken
Cost:
1m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Scar-Writ Saga Shield

Malfeas's scars still burn with the pain of guilt and shame, a reminder of the mutilation he suffered at the hands of the Exalted. Never again. Activating this Charm negates any Crippling effect that would harm the Infernal. He may waive its Willpower cost if his wound penalties are at -4 or higher.

Inviolable Scripture Caparisons
Cost:
4m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive (Step 7)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One tick
Prerequisite Charms: Demonic Primacy of Essence

Azure glyphs flare to life in the Infernal's anima, spelling out the terms of her divinity for all to behold. Non-magical attacks are incapable of damaging her through these glyphs. Even magical attacks subtract one die from their post-soak damage for each point by which the Infernal's Essence exceeds that of the attacker, to a minimum of zero damage. Characters capable of reading Old Realm may read these fact in the glyphs conjured by this Charm, allowing them to automatically understand the function of this defensive magic.

Crumbling Sand-Self Embodiment
Cost:
4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 7)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Transcendent Desert Creature

The warlock's flesh melts into silver sand as she is struck, dispersing the force of the blows against her. An attack opposed by Crumbling Sand-Self Embodiment does not add the attacker's Strength or weapon damage when calculating its raw damage in Step 7. Only extra successes and damage added by Charms apply against it. Attacks that are not made with a physical weapon or projectile cannot have their damage reduced by this Charm.

Manifest Consciousness Extrusion
Cost:
3m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Mind-Hand Manipulation

The Infernal sends a pulse of will through her telekinetic limbs, giving them strength to reorder the world or disassemble her foes. Manifest Consciousness Extrusion can supplement any telekinetic action made with Mind-Hand Manipulation. The warlock adds her (Willpower) to her effective Strength rating for that action.

Illimitable Boundaries Assertion
Cost:
—; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: First She Who Lives In Her Name Excellency, Mind-Hand Manipulation

The Whispering Flame is not limited by the scope of her physical existence. Comprehension defines the ambit of her grasp, and her comprehension is all but infinite. All telekinetic attacks made with Mind-Hand Manipulation have their Range extended to (Willpower + [Essence x 5]) yards. In addition, any enemy that suffers knockback from a telekinetic blow is damaged upon colliding with an obstacle as described in Heaven Thunder Hammer (Exalted, p. 242).

With Essence 3+, the warlock can manipulate the bodies of enemies held in a telekinetic clinch. Whenever she succeeds on a roll to maintain control of a telekinetic clinch, she can move the bound character up to (Essence) yards in any direction as long as they remain within the range of Mind-Hand Manipulation. Clinched enemies that are moved into obstacles suffer collision damage as if they had suffered knockback.

With Heuristic Logos Shintai active, this Charm instead adds +500 yards to the Range of the warlock's telekinetic attacks. In addition, the shintai allows clinched enemies to be telekinetically moved up to (Essence x 3) yards with each successful roll.

Wayward Wind Evasion
Cost:
2m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 7)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Wind-Born Stride

A reflex of Essence sends the warlock recoiling from an attack even before it hits, turning deadly threats into glancing blows. An attack opposed by Wayward Wind Evasion has its post-soak damage reduced by one die for each purchase of Wind-Born Stride the Infernal possesses, to a minimum of zero dice. Attacks that have already been reduced to their minimum damage by the warlock's soak instead lose only a single die of post-soak damage.

Blood-Stained Sky Assault
Cost:
4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: One tick
Prerequisite Charms: Joy in Violence Approach

No one kills faster than the Silent Wind. All attacks the warlock makes on this tick add a single die of post-soak damage. Against mortals and animals, this is converted into an automatic level of damage in Step 10.

With Essence 3+, the warlock can pay an additional three motes to convert the bonus damage of this Charm to automatic levels against Essence users as well as mortals.

Heart-Seeking Wind Caress
Cost:
1m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Tragic Love Amusement

Nothing can keep the Silent Wind from the objects of her affection. As the warlock strikes, her blades dissolves into a blur of motion, slipping through armor to strike the heart. An attack supplemented by this Charm subtracts the Infernal's (Compassion) from any soak or Hardness from armor that is applied against it. If the Infernal channels her Compassion to enhance the attack, she instead halves soak from armor if that would afford a higher reduction.

Escape The Dawn
Cost:
3m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive (Step 2)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: One scene
Prerequisite Charms: Bloodless Murk Evasion

The Ebon Dragon is free from the chains of pride and arrogance that blind the brave to their own survival. When the tide of the Primordial War turned against the titans, he was the first to flee. Now he is alive, and his brothers are dead. Escape the Dawn is the Ebon Dragon's internalization of this lesson, empowering the Infernal to retreat from his foes. While this Charm is active, the warlock gains the following benefits:

• He adds a +2 bonus to his Dodge DV

• While in combat, he adds (Essence) to his Move and dashing speeds as long as he is not moving towards any enemy. When using Bloodless Murk Evasion, the distance he can teleport is doubled as long as he does not teleport towards any enemies.

• He may choose to activate Bloodless Murk Evasion for zero motes (doing so is compatible with extended activations of the Charm). Using this free perfect dodge ends this Charm, after which it cannot be reactivated for the rest of the scene. With Essence 5+, the warlock may invoke up to (Essence ÷ 2) free activations before this Charm ends.

Yes, that's Cold Fire Desolation Brand costing 5m total (7 for FV, later on). Yes, that's Wrath-Stoked Bonfire Soul costing 8m to do (Essence) damage. And yes, this was at the time when OWTB (3m) repeated the damage step and HTT (1m) doubled post-soak damage, as tier one Charms. Yes, for the same min Essence as WSBS (and two less prereqs), Golden Destruction Cut tripled the effect of all damage rolled, as a permanent, no-cost upgrade to HTT. No, I don't understand it either; don't shoot the messenger.
 
I'll talk to them, but I'm not too, worried about it. I trust my players to learn the game well enough that they can tell me what their characters can do
You really need to learn those capabilities yourself. Especially if you want to challenge them.

Also, you asked for help with which books to learn the setting, but there aren't really any that would help craft a game for both Infernals and Alchemicals.
 
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So, ultimately, having Alchemical Charms be Artifacts would mostly be a case of the rules for making the things. This wouldn't be setting breaking because Autochthonia has both resource scarcity and a lack of Exalts making stuff, so the process is a hell of a lot more difficult than it would be in Creation.
The last time this topic came around I spelled out an entirely serviceable method for retaining Alchemical Charms as near-Artifacts, making the creation of them low-scaled enough for mortal accessibility as talismans, and also an arduous enough upkeep process that most technical-minded Exalts would likely prefer to simply build an actual Artifact for the purpose rather than cultivate a side-trinket which needs to be regularly maintained like a project car.

The rules for enchanted talismans through thaumaturgy as a stopgap to avoiding overburdening Artifacts as a mechanics-category are the cure-all for all issues surrounding how technologically-upscale Autochthonia is, and the fact the writers of the 2e book either forgot it existed or deliberately overlooked it in favor of drilling down on 2e's gear-focus is one of the biggest flaws in a book already half-understanding its own subject.
 
You really need to kearn those capabilities yourself. Especially if you want to challege them.

Also, you asked for help with which books to learn the setting, but there aren't really any that would help craft a game for both Infernals and Alchemicals.
My apologies if I worded the question wrong, I want to know the setting stuff so that I know what hoops I have to jump through/changes I have to make in order to justify them being in a party together.
However I'm also looking to find what books /homebrew I need to make the game as fun as possible. I've heard some really bad things about the mechanical side.

Infernals Charms were made by people who understood how 2e's system worked and were tuned specifically for it. When 2.5 came along, they were significantly weakened because the system didn't work the same.

Would 2e be an option I should look at then? I've heard some bad things about the mechanics, but one of my players really wants to be an infernal
 
My apologies if I worded the question wrong, I want to know the setting stuff so that I know what hoops I have to jump through/changes I have to make in order to justify them being in a party together.
However I'm also looking to find what books /homebrew I need to make the game as fun as possible. I've heard some really bad things about the mechanical side.



Would 2e be an option I should look at then? I've heard some bad things about the mechanics, but one of my players really wants to be an infernal

You might be interested in an idea I've read some time ago on how to port Alchemicals into Malfeas; Forgot where it was, unfortunately, but it might be interesting to you if the Alchemical player isn't too attached to Autochtonia itself.

Anyway, it goes like this: Some time after the Seal of Eight Divinities falls, an Apostate manages to sneak the blueprints for Alchemical creation out of Autochtonia. Through assorted intermediaries, such as the Deathlords, it eventually makes it's way to Malfeas, where the Yozi get to work on replicating it. Unfortunately for them, they are incapable of matching Auto's technological brilliance at creating magitek, so the infernal Alchemical's charms are Primordial Sorcery-derived arcane artifacts instead. According to the Yozi, that's much better anyways.

It didn't go into much depth beyond that, but I have to imagine that for example infernalised vats are organic vitriol-wombs, infernalised ranged attack charms draw from the fires of Ligier, and the aesthetic of infernalized Alchemicals is generally a mix of rune-carved magic artifacts and hellish organic technology. Possibly even some of their equipment is actually specialized demon breeds which have been mutated into symbiotic bodygrafts.
 
Speaking of which, I noticed this hadn't been posted...unless it had and I just missed it. Long story short, a couple years ago, just awhile after 2.5 came out, Robert Vance--one of the writers--posted this with permission from up top; it was an in progress errata for Infernals. By his own admission, it doesn't come close to fixing them since the project got cut to work on 3E, but it was meant to help some. And it...it's...

...It has some neat ideas!

In all honesty, some of it's pretty good, for what 2.5 Infernals had to work with. It's just that some of the design decisions were...questionable to say the least. I'll just post it here so everyone can see it:



Yes, that's Cold Fire Desolation Brand costing 5m total (7 for FV, later on). Yes, that's Wrath-Stoked Bonfire Soul costing 8m to do (Essence) damage. And yes, this was at the time when OWTB (3m) repeated the damage step and HTT (1m) doubled post-soak damage, as tier one Charms. Yes, for the same min Essence as WSBS (and two less prereqs), Golden Destruction Cut tripled the effect of all damage rolled, as a permanent, no-cost upgrade to HTT. No, I don't understand it either; don't shoot the messenger.
That was brought up quite a long time ago.


Looking at the threads reaction to it back then, it was not well received.
 
You might be interested in an idea I've read some time ago on how to port Alchemicals into Malfeas; Forgot where it was, unfortunately, but it might be interesting to you if the Alchemical player isn't too attached to Autochtonia itself.

Anyway, it goes like this: Some time after the Seal of Eight Divinities falls, an Apostate manages to sneak the blueprints for Alchemical creation out of Autochtonia. Through assorted intermediaries, such as the Deathlords, it eventually makes it's way to Malfeas, where the Yozi get to work on replicating it. Unfortunately for them, they are incapable of matching Auto's technological brilliance at creating magitek, so the infernal Alchemical's charms are Primordial Sorcery-derived arcane artifacts instead. According to the Yozi, that's much better anyways.

It didn't go into much depth beyond that, but I have to imagine that for example infernalised vats are organic vitriol-wombs, infernalised ranged attack charms draw from the fires of Ligier, and the aesthetic of infernalized Alchemicals is generally a mix of rune-carved magic artifacts and hellish organic technology. Possibly even some of their equipment is actually specialized demon breeds which have been mutated into symbiotic bodygrafts.
neomah?
 

Uh, what about them? Like, I imagine they might be involved in some of the crafting processes somewhere, but is that what you're talking about?

Anyway, ideas for an infernalized Alchemical's charms:

Servitor-Spawn Cyst: Generates small but somewhat autonomous attack-, messenger and scout-, and utility demons.
Overdrive Infusion Glands: Combat drug dispensers that enhance the user's physical stats. Higher dosages have side-effects such as inflicting damage, possibly mental status effects such as preventing a voluntary retreat or even outright berserking.
 
Uh, what about them? Like, I imagine they might be involved in some of the crafting processes somewhere, but is that what you're talking about?

Anyway, ideas for an infernalized Alchemical's charms:

Servitor-Spawn Cyst: Generates small but somewhat autonomous attack-, messenger and scout-, and utility demons.
Overdrive Infusion Glands: Combat drug dispensers that enhance the user's physical stats. Higher dosages have side-effects such as inflicting damage, possibly mental status effects such as preventing a voluntary retreat or even outright berserking.
Yeah, given the fact that the neomah have some sort of fleshcrafting ability, I'm guessing that they will be able assist in the creation of demon breeds and bio weapons.
 
I've been thinking about filling out the ranks of the Yozi, and I wanted to get some input. Now, I prefer to have Ramethus, Taakazoa, and Mardukth as Yozi rather than Neverborn, because we have some information on them. Are there any non-canon Yozi that are any good anywhere? I've been thinking about an ice Yozi, focused on stasis, and a fire yozi, focused on filling the mad scientist slot since Autobot's sleeping.
 
I've been thinking about filling out the ranks of the Yozi, and I wanted to get some input. Now, I prefer to have Ramethus, Taakazoa, and Mardukth as Yozi rather than Neverborn, because we have some information on them. Are there any non-canon Yozi that are any good anywhere? I've been thinking about an ice Yozi, focused on stasis, and a fire yozi, focused on filling the mad scientist slot since Autobot's sleeping.
markdukth:

Some fanart
 
I've been thinking about filling out the ranks of the Yozi, and I wanted to get some input. Now, I prefer to have Ramethus, Taakazoa, and Mardukth as Yozi rather than Neverborn, because we have some information on them.

Urgh, no. Don't go reviving Primordials. It's important that some things are gone and lost and known to be so.

And specifically there is no way whatsoever that Ramethus surrendered.
 
Oh! Thought.

Considering the topic that was broached earlier about stillbirths, you know what would be common? Dying while giving birth to a child. Possibly with different flavors, admittedly. Perhaps women who were desperately hoping for a child, or placed a lot of hope for a better life in the child they would have (which people do do) find that they don't pass on/cling to existence.

Not sure what sort of evil-ish (well, I'm imagining they'd be the sort of ghost that can both harm and help, though obviously harm's what people would focus on when not wanting to meet them) powers they'd have, but generation, childbirth, women's problems/issues/bodies...it's half the human race and the way everyone in the human race comes into being (well, in real life, at least) so I'm sure there's some area for signifigance/power/interesting things.

Are ghostblooded a thing?
I can see several ways it can work: if they wanted the child, and the child is still alive/she had other children that were accepted, then i expect her to be some kind of ghostly protector. If there isn't any child alive/ the other children die, then she is probably going to lash out to the one that she believes failed her children/try to get more children. If she didn't want the child, then expect someone killing children and trying to ruin the ones that forced her to birth. (The first two can be obviously combined together)
Urgh, no. Don't go reviving Primordials. It's important that some things are gone and lost and known to be so.

And specifically there is no way whatsoever that Ramethus surrendered.
I think it was more about changing the Known neverborns with the other relatively unknown Yozis? So you can have more demons and potential charmsets without having to interprete obscure Yozis.

Ah, i have a retoric question for you, (I expect the answer to be no.) Earthscorpion: has Cemunian, Constellation of Sinew and Dreams, any place in the past of your creation? (Even as random primordial who decided to attack during the War and then died without any fanfare)
 
Something born from Ink Monkeys: a very envious Primordial tha created its own version of creation, called Cajerrón, and wanted to crash it in the true creation, which caused the Unconquered Sun to drive the Daystar TM to the alternate world to destroy it.

Cajerrón was described thusly:
everywhere the land was twisted and rotten, and the seas oily and putrid, and all the creatures upon the land and sea and air were twisted monsters, seeking only for bone and hope to crack between their jaws.

Sounds like a nice place, doesn't it?
 
Ah, right, that.

Personally, I don't see a huge issue either way- it's not hugely problematic that some of the Primordials might've been jealous IMO- but that said, it's deep in Creation's prehistory, so I'm not sure how much it'd come up.
 
Ah, i have a retoric question for you, (I expect the answer to be no.) Earthscorpion: has Cemunian, Constellation of Sinew and Dreams, any place in the past of your creation? (Even as random primordial who decided to attack during the War and then died without any fanfare)

Honestly, as written he's a pretty weaksauce attempt to - badly - build heat for the Sun in Morke's long wank-off of Sun-Jesus. Because he means nothing, he's just a "Look how powerful the Sun is, he blew up a world we just made up to show off how powerful he is" thing and so doesn't actually build any heat at all.

No doubt there were Primordials who did not join in the great undertaking of the World-Makers, but if they ever banded together to take on Theion and his kin - and they would have to, knowing the power of the Omphalos-world - this ancient titanomachy is long forgotten and was no doubt terrible beyond words.
 
Yeah. It's not offensive, but on the other hand, doesn't really change anything in the setting that matters.
 
...though now I'm imagining one of the Titans who helped shape creation before wandering back into the Wyld come by for a visit, like your distant cousin drops by for an awkward cup of tea when they are in town and they just look at what happened to their thought experiment "..the fuck?"
 
Yeah, that was pretty much the answer i expected to get.

Another question (This time more general): is there any statted Devil Tiger charmset that could fit a canonical Yozi with little modification/no modifications? Asking only because i am curious.
 
Yeah, that was pretty much the answer i expected to get.

Another question (This time more general): is there any statted Devil Tiger charmset that could fit a canonical Yozi with little modification/no modifications? Asking only because i am curious.

The number of started DT Charmsets out there are low, to say the least.
 
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