Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Uhm, if wound penalties are internal, shouldn't they be taking away dice from your DV rather than points?
General Exalted Thread
Walker of the Yellow Path
Ho There!
- Location
- The Land of Memes
Do we have an Exalted Fic discussion thread on this site?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is correct. External penalties and actions take away DV directly, internal penalties take away from the dice pool.
So, say, you have Chandra, an E2 Nova.
He has Dex 4, Melee 5, a specialty at 3, +2 defense from his blade, and +1 DV from Mega-attributes. This gives a total dicepool of 14 defense+1 Auto DV. This gives him a total Parry DV of 8
Now, he has a -1 wound penalty because an insane dragon-blood just rammed him through a bank of computers. This reduces his dicepool to 13+1 Auto DV, which means his actual DV has not decreased.
If, on the other hand, the dragon-blood then impaled him on her blade, raising his penalty to -2, his dicepool would drop to 12+1 Auto DV, which would decrease his Parry DV to 7.
ryuan
From Zero to Hero!
Thanks! To which place I sacrifice my goats for your assistance?
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Actually, per RAW this is incorrect. As per pg 147 of the Core: "Wound penalties (see p. 150) also subtract directly from both DVs." It then proceeds to not talk about how internal and external penalties might effect DVs differently, despite this being somewhat important and they just contradicted the way you thought it would work. *Sigh*. Fuck 2e.
Generally speaking, I run with the 'internal penalties subtract straight from DVs' because its less bookkeeping and all round simpler.
Welcome to the fun of the Exalted system, just briming with exceptions.
The internal penalties actually subtracting from Defense Values is likely a result of wanting some simplification in the process(same reason you don't roll them).
So, Vance put up some Infernal Errata.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Inconsistency is simpler?
*sigh* I guess the actual answer is "ask your ST". Blargh.
I like the "reasserting intimacies" concept added in the errata, but darned if I can find the charms that actually do that. The only one I spotted was the DB "eternal mind meditation".
anyone know what the other splats use to re-assert intimacies?
*sigh* I guess the actual answer is "ask your ST". Blargh.
I like the "reasserting intimacies" concept added in the errata, but darned if I can find the charms that actually do that. The only one I spotted was the DB "eternal mind meditation".
anyone know what the other splats use to re-assert intimacies?
Matsci
Grash itsh griah! Rwar arr rawrrawrarar!
And Malfeas Mythos Exultant is still terrible. FFS, just have it give overdrive motes in addition to regular motes.
And SWLIHN's flaw is still broken
Walker of the Yellow Path
Ho There!
- Location
- The Land of Memes
What's SWLIHN's flaw again?
Were does it talk about different penalties working differently? I don't see that on 147 at least.
Not really. The ruling is pretty clear in that section, which is the section that would really matter.
I could actually see this as being useful. I mean, at Essence 4 you're breaking even, and above that you're actually getting more out of the wp than you would out of essence.
And wouldn't overdrive motes essentially bring you back to the same problem of the original version?
There's a surcharge against non-new combo's.
Romantic_Kaiju
Romantic Kaiju
- Location
- National Battlefield
Right looking over the errata, I noticed this
How do resolve this with mortal essence users?
Cost: 4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: One tick
Prerequisite Charms: Joy in Violence Approach
No one kills faster than the Silent Wind. All attacks the warlock makes on this tick add a single die of post-soak damage. Against mortals and animals, this is converted into an automatic level of damage in Step 10.
With Essence 3+, the warlock can pay an additional three motes to convert the bonus damage of this Charm to automatic levels against Essence users as well as mortals.
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: One tick
Prerequisite Charms: Joy in Violence Approach
No one kills faster than the Silent Wind. All attacks the warlock makes on this tick add a single die of post-soak damage. Against mortals and animals, this is converted into an automatic level of damage in Step 10.
With Essence 3+, the warlock can pay an additional three motes to convert the bonus damage of this Charm to automatic levels against Essence users as well as mortals.
How do resolve this with mortal essence users?
They don't count as mortal for most of that stuff if I remember it right. Or at least once they did not count as mortals.
Dire. The SWLIHN Flaw is the worst kind of floogly-woogly narrative Flaw, the Malfeas Mythos Exultant literally does nothing at E4 because it's letting you turn 1wp into 4m, and they decided "HEY LET'S GIVE INFERNALS EVEN MORE REASON TO GET ADORJAN CHARM" and of course the good ol' "Let's make MHM even better and add one of the best combat effects in the game to it for free, if only you buy this Excllency-locked Charm".
This breaks possibly even more things than it fixes, and doesn't fix much. It's... ah, quite telling that the many many issues weren't caught.
I recommend people don't use 2.5E anyway (because its fail state is worse than 2E, because at least paranoia combat stops people who aren't massively combat invested from being murdered and lets them run away with a fairly small charm investment), and I double recommend that you not use it if you want to use Infernals in any way. Take the few okay things in it (like killing Combos dead, and capping mote regen from stunts), and then backport them.
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Matsci
Grash itsh griah! Rwar arr rawrrawrarar!
Of corse, this is from a guy who forgot that 2.5 broke SWLIHN's flaw anyways.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Considering I can't even remember ever using her flaw/perfect defenses even in 2e, I'm not surprised. Why use hers when you can get Adorjans with just as much difficulty and much more applicability.
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
Correct. Enlightened mortals aren't, definitionally, mortals.
Anondylar
Lazy Tortoise
- Location
- Procrastinationville
Huh? How is 2.5's fail state worst than 2E? All I've seen from it is that combat takes shorter to resolve than 2E.
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
Basically, it biases combat heavily towards people heavily invested in combat.
This means that noncombat-focused characters who could get by in plain 2E with a perfect, a flurry-breaker, and some escape Charms have to invest heavily in defensive combat Charms in 2.5E or risk get turned into chunky salsa the first time somebody gets upset at them.
I dunno. The main problem with 2.5E Infernals is that they didn't have any defensive charms other than Perfects and a handful of effects in the Malfeas and Kimberry trees; this update fixes that, giving them a few defensive charms in each Yozi's tree, and a couple attack charms to boost a form of attack that was broken by 2.5's focus on boosting the importance of soak.
Also, adding the Heaven Thunder Hammer-style knockback damage isn't that bad when you aren't auto-inflicting knockback like Heaven Thunder Hammer anyway; in order to have it have any effect, you have to be inflicting more raw damage than their (Stamina + Resistance), they have to fail a Difficulty 2 (Dexterity or Stamina + Athletics or Resistance) roll, and then you knock them back 1 yard per 3 dice of damage, so even if it works, it's inflicting at best a third of the damage of Heaven Thunder Hammer.
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Is this really the case? Yes, perfects were heavily nerfed, but only in the fact that you cannot use them continually. If your strategy has always been to run at the sign of danger, then they should protect you just as well, unless you cannot run. In which case you would die in 2.0, just a lot slower.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
2E means that if you don't have a paranoia combo; which is fairly quick to get and accessible for most people, you die trivially and near-instantly in combat.
2.5E means that if you don't have a paranoia combo plus a bunch of in-depth combat Charmtech that requires significant investment, you die trivially and near-instantly in combat. This means that you have a situation almost exactly like 2E (albeit somewhat quicker because one guy goes "splat" faster), except that non-combat characters can't defend themselves while they run away from a developing fight, and are thus totally fucked if a brawl breaks out or someone who has focused on combat decides that they don't like their face.
And while "combat-focused Alice should be able to kill non-combat-focused Bob in a fight" is fine, "non-combat-focused Bob cannot dip into combat for the bare defensive minimum required to run away from fights without putting a substantial fraction of his xp total towards it"... isn't.
As I asked above, what exactly changed so that running away was no longer valid? Because, honestly, it seems to me that the difference isn't what you say it is. A Perfect, a Flurrybreaker, and a speed enhancement method is what you would use in both scenarios, and while Perfects were changed they weren't changed to be utterly unusable; they just end up draining your motes faster.
The change, to my eyes, is that there's no longer the easy divide between utter non-combatant(no perfects), non combatant(Perfect, a few other defensive charms), and combatant(perfects, plus a few other offensive tools). Now, the combatant part is more of scale based on your investment.
Yeah. Now the Dawn that spent all his XP on combat charms is actually better in combat than the guy who bought a Paranoia combo and then went off to buy other things.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Do not stare to long into abyss that is Exalted combat, lest... well, actually your just likely to come the conclusion the entire system is borked.
It comes down to taste, in the end. I like 2.5 more then 2.0, because I can play combat characters and have combat end. On the other hand, I play combat characters and I'm an optimizer. ES and Aleph are completely right in that it was much easier to build for combat survivability in 2.0, but it was way to easy to build combat invincibility, which went bad in the other direction (made combat builds pointless). And actually fixing the system so that it's balanced between survivability and lethality... there are so many contributing factors you basically need a new core book. At minimum:
1) Flurries need to go
2) Threshold success triplers (or quadruplers) need to be dialed back, or full out removed
3) Clinches need to not be an 'I win' button
4) Damage:Soak:Life basically need to be recalculated all round
And this is before you get into stuff like bad touches, or the dice bell curve. Further, I'm certain I am missing stuff, because there is so much of this in Exalted.
TL;DR: Exalted is a mess, and is systemically flawed on pretty near every level. It's a small wonder the game is playable, really.