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General Exalted Thread

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Sanctaphrax said:
Yes. Apparently space prevented them from including more backstory blurbs for NPC statblocks.

Also I read somewhere that some of the non-backer Charms in the backer Charm PDF were cut from the corebook for space. But I'm pretty sure Holden said they didn't cut any Charms for space, and while his honesty is questionable I see no reason for him to lie about this in particular. So I'm less sure about that.
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John is the one who says that he decided not to include Charms in the core that were in Miracles, so it might be that Holden was describing a stage of cutting charms already written, and John is describing ideas or concepts that he may have treated a bit but removed from the material earlier on.

Like, it's easy to imagine that when they were at the stage of staring at 900+ page drafts and deciding they needed to cut it down to 600+, that none of the charms already there got cut in that process, and that Holden was thinking of that when he answered that question.

I think most of what people complain about being cut for space might be conceptual stuff that they decided not to include early on, or that they felt wasn't really important, like more stuff for Thaumaturgy or a Storyteller section. Judging by the leak, they decided earlier than that just not to do one, for example. Which stinks.
 
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Dif said:
Here is the big thing that people are missing, that the specificity of Thaumaturgy writeups were important worldbuilding disguised as mechanics. There were no "+1 to breeding a horse" or "roll Occult to emulate 21st century science" Procedures, never has been, nor was there anything of "physics" in the particulars save that of people who want an easy strawman to rail against. Husbandry and Enchantment were not the end-all-be-all of the things, and without elaborating on the actual practices being made, you lose out on an entire foundation which sets up what Creation is intended to be.
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The Art of Husbandry and a couple others are particularly interesting. For all that they call it the "The Age of Sorrows," I'd never really realized that Creation was intended to be an idyllic agricultural paradise. That never really came across in the other books.
 
Anasurimbor said:
The Art of Husbandry and a couple others are particularly interesting. For all that they call it the "The Age of Sorrows," I'd never really realized that Creation was intended to be an idyllic agricultural paradise. That never really came across in the other books.
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Part of the Tragedy is that the potential is there, but there are far too many places with bandits and stuff that never reach their full potential. While you might get that sort of paradise in certain remote areas, any traveling thaumaturge that knows all the rituals and tries to spread them through an entire country is likely to be ganked by bandits.

Or assassinated on orders of the local Guild equivalent because they threaten the monopoly and imports.
 
So... as I now understand it 2e Thaumaturgy is Ritualistic Magi-Science, while 3e Thaumaturgy seems to be... primitive Charms? I mean, that's just the vibe I'm getting from them.
 
Gamerlord said:
So... as I now understand it 2e Thaumaturgy is Ritualistic Magi-Science, while 3e Thaumaturgy seems to be... primitive Charms? I mean, that's just the vibe I'm getting from them.
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3e Thamuaturgy is 'This is what makes your character special!' psuedo-magic.

Fundamentally, 90% of everything in 3e is couched in terms of 'Make characters', not show setting. They give you 'Character' Charms, not 'Exalt' Charms.

Like the 'call down disaster' effects aren't Solar Charms, in my mind. They're Moses Charms. And earlier all of those Socialize effects to make separate persona? That's all so players can be Mirror Flag, a previous NPC who did that with his own custom charms originally.

Take that as you will.
 
Anasurimbor said:
The Art of Husbandry and a couple others are particularly interesting. For all that they call it the "The Age of Sorrows," I'd never really realized that Creation was intended to be an idyllic agricultural paradise. That never really came across in the other books.
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The Blessed Isle is called that for a reason, you know?

Of course, most of the world don't really enjoy the wonders of weather regulation and gods that actually do their job.
 
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Honestly, speaking as a physicist, I have never understood the appeal of unexplainable magic.

It's not more wondrous if you don't understand it. It's just annoyingly opaque. In the real world it's be a cool mystery to solve, but there's no "reality" behind the gamebook beyond whatever insights into the author's mind you can glean.

What I find wondrous, grandiose, what possesses gravitas for me, is when I understand the scope and scale of a great working in full.
 
azoicennead said:
But... What you're describing is applied physics. That's what engineering is.
You're just getting hung up on the terminology here.
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Well. While i agree with this, i have to say, terminology matters. It contaminates your mind processes.

It's all too easy to start with "ritual magic is the creation equivalent of tech" and ending with transplanting modern-style tech to creation. Once you start considering something science, you mistakenly believe this have to lead to an aesthetic similar to real world science.

That's how you end with Essence canons and demesnes as refueling stations.
 
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Omicron's Homebrew: 3E Index
  • Apocrypha
    • @Leetsepeak: You asked for my Ex3 homebrew collected in one place, well, here it is.

    Obligatory disclaimer: uuuurgh I haven't been writing nearly as much as I intended to and some of this stuff is baaaaad

    But well, here it is.

    Omicron's Ex3 Homebrew & Actual Play

    Characters
    Ashigure, Goddess of Reefs and Safe Harbors (Goddess)
    Mandragore, the Hangman's Daughter (Greater Dead)
    Skarbimir Rignys, Wolf-Prince of the White Barrows (Hungry Ghost)
    The Whisperers (Ghostly Race)
    The First Quarry (Undead Monsters)

    Artifacts
    The Mourning Queen's Regalia (Soulsteel Armor, Daiklave and Shield)
    Star-Shrouded Heart (Orichalcum and Red Jade Direlance)
    The Tatters of the King (Corrupted Silken Armor)
    Last Thunder (Orichalcum Direlance)
    Slay-the-Storm (Orichalcum Direlance; compare/contrast Last Thunder)
    The Broken Tower (White Jade Armor)
    Moon-Chained-in-Ink (Moonsilver Tattoo Armor)

    Sidereal Martial Arts
    Osseous Hour of Misfortune ("you're gonna have a bad time")
    Gilded Blossoms of Determination ("In this world, it's kill or be killed.")
    Obsidian Shards of Infinity

    Sorcery
    The Broken Fire (Sorcerous Initiation)
    The Question (Necromancy Initiation)

    Actual Play: Gloam City Nights
    Intro - Dramatis Personae
    Session One - Meet Gloam
    Session Two - Lighthouse Fight
    Session Three - Meet White Raven | Ein's Story
    Session Four - Meet Black Dove
    Session Five - Return To The Slums
    Session Six - The Silence She Speaks
    Session Seven - The Ghost and the Child


    The above list does not include my 2e homebrew, a lot of which is pure fluff and thus likely still compatible with Ex3, and which can be found here.

    I think that's all of it.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Omicron said:
    @Leetsepeak: You asked for my Ex3 homebrew collected in one place, well, here it is.

    Obligatory disclaimer: uuuurgh I haven't been written nearly as much as I intended to and some of this stuff is baaaaad

    But well, here it is.

    Omicron's Ex3 Homebrew & Actual Play

    Characters
    Ashigure, Goddess of Reefs and Safe Harbors (Goddess)
    Mandragore, the Hangman's Daughter (Greater Dead)
    Skarbimir Rignys, Wolf-Prince of the White Barrows (Hungry Ghost)
    The Whisperers (Ghostly Race)
    The First Quarry (Undead Monsters)

    Artifacts
    The Mourning Queen's Regalia (Soulsteel Armor, Daiklave and Shield)
    Star-Shrouded Heart (Orichalcum and Red Jade Direlance)
    The Tatters of the King (Corrupted Silken Armor)
    Last Thunder (Orichalcum Direlance)
    Slay-the-Storm (Orichalcum Direlance; compare/contrast Last Thunder)
    The Broken Tower (White Jade Armor)
    Moon-Chained-in-Ink (Moonsilver Tattoo Armor)

    Sidereal Martial Arts
    Osseous Hour of Misfortune ("you're gonna have a bad time")
    Gilded Blossoms of Determination ("In this world, it's kill or be killed.")
    Obsidian Shards of Infinity

    Sorcery
    The Broken Fire (Sorcerous Initiation)
    The Question (Necromancy Initiation)

    Actual Play: Gloam City Nights
    Intro - Dramatis Personae
    Session One - Meet Gloam
    Session Two - Lighthouse Fight
    Session Three - Meet White Raven | Ein's Story
    Session Four - Meet Black Dove
    Session Five - Return To The Slums
    Session Six - The Silence She Speaks
    Session Seven - The Ghost and the Child


    The above list does not include my 2e homebrew, a lot of which is pure fluff and thus likely still compatible with Ex3, and which can be found here.

    I think that's all of it.
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    A lot of that seemingly requires us to request permission to view
     
    Broken25 said:
    Well. While i agree with this, i hae to say, terminology matters. It contaminates your mind processes.

    It's all too easy to start with "ritual magic is the creation equivalent of tech" and ending with transplanting modern-style tech to creation. Once you start considering something science, you mistakenly believe this have to lead to an aesthetic similar to real world science.
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    That doesn't make "it's not applied physics, it's engineering" any less absurd of a statement.

    Broken25 said:
    That's how you end with Essence canons and demesnes as refueling stations.
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    Neither of these things are inherently bad. The difference between an Essence cannon and a bow that shoots bolts of Essence is aesthetics, and literally nothing else. Demesnes as refueling stations is a more complex thing and not actually related to aesthetics.
     
    The Laurent said:
    Not really? Aesthetics matter.
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    Indeed. Look, i will just quote Revlid:

    Revlid said:
    The relationship between Creation's tech tree and our world's is the relationship between brahmastra and nuclear weapons.
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    The problem here, i think, it's that it's too easy to botch the presentation and destroy the difference between the two. (And yes, there is a difference).

    Probably because, at the end of the day, we are accostumed to how our world works and the weird pseudo-aristotelic physics of Creation are hard to work with. So you end with a First age, or first age wonders, that resemble more modern tech than the artifacts of an advanced magical civilization.
     
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    Omicron said:
    But Ex3 didn't handle the change well. The actual strong fluff is full of references to minor enchantments, wards, talismans and lesser magic, not practiced by sorcerers but nonetheless taught and transmitted as a discipline. And then the rules go on to tell you that this doesn't exist.
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    Omicron said:
    Again, the idea of thaumaturge crafters weaving enchantments in their work and creating complex designs where the line blurs between magic and engineering is right there, in the fluff. The rules just decided to describe a completely different world for... Some reason.
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    I don't see where the rules for Thaumaturgy contradict the fluff. Could you be more specific about how you think they do? We don't get any rules for such things, but absent a fairly in-depth treatment merely adding a ritual that says "you can craft a $foo talisman" doesn't really add much. We do get a discussion of how rituals may be taught to other gifted individuals, and even an example of the lengths some organizations will go to preserve such knowledge.
     
    ManusDomine said:
    Funny, because I never got that implication.

    Seems to me that @Omicron just wants Thaumaturgy to be minor magics that any mortal can pick up in order to work into his craft.
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    Which isn't related to what I was saying. In fact, I agree with that!

    I was saying that if something involves engineering, it involves applied physics.
    He said the story referenced is a mix of magic and engineering (which, again, really just makes it engineering that uses magic), but doesn't require thaumaturgy to be applied physics.
    Omicron said:
    Again, the idea of thaumaturge crafters weaving enchantments in their work and creating complex designs where the line blurs between magic and engineering is right there, in the fluff.
    ...
    But conversely, that story has no need for thaumaturgy to be Creation's applied physics either.
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    Engineering is applied physics, and when the universe allows magic, it becomes part of physics (because when a scientific theory and reality disagree, the theory gets fixed, and we don't leave the error as "magic"). The physicists of Creation wouldn't ignore that "enilightenment*" lets you do otherwise impossible things and dismiss it from their theories as magic (assuming they're following the scientific method, anyway) because then they would be wrong. If their theories don't allow for the influence of spirits, they'll be wrong (and marginally useful).

    So the point that Omicron contradicted himself remains.

    * Read: Essence
     
    Omicron said:
    @Leetsepeak: You asked for my Ex3 homebrew collected in one place, well, here it is.

    Obligatory disclaimer: uuuurgh I haven't been written nearly as much as I intended to and some of this stuff is baaaaad

    But well, here it is.

    Omicron's Ex3 Homebrew & Actual Play

    Characters
    Ashigure, Goddess of Reefs and Safe Harbors (Goddess)
    Mandragore, the Hangman's Daughter (Greater Dead)
    Skarbimir Rignys, Wolf-Prince of the White Barrows (Hungry Ghost)
    The Whisperers (Ghostly Race)
    The First Quarry (Undead Monsters)

    Artifacts
    The Mourning Queen's Regalia (Soulsteel Armor, Daiklave and Shield)
    Star-Shrouded Heart (Orichalcum and Red Jade Direlance)
    The Tatters of the King (Corrupted Silken Armor)
    Last Thunder (Orichalcum Direlance)
    Slay-the-Storm (Orichalcum Direlance; compare/contrast Last Thunder)
    The Broken Tower (White Jade Armor)
    Moon-Chained-in-Ink (Moonsilver Tattoo Armor)

    Sidereal Martial Arts
    Osseous Hour of Misfortune ("you're gonna have a bad time")
    Gilded Blossoms of Determination ("In this world, it's kill or be killed.")
    Obsidian Shards of Infinity

    Sorcery
    The Broken Fire (Sorcerous Initiation)
    The Question (Necromancy Initiation)

    Actual Play: Gloam City Nights
    Intro - Dramatis Personae
    Session One - Meet Gloam
    Session Two - Lighthouse Fight
    Session Three - Meet White Raven | Ein's Story
    Session Four - Meet Black Dove
    Session Five - Return To The Slums
    Session Six - The Silence She Speaks
    Session Seven - The Ghost and the Child


    The above list does not include my 2e homebrew, a lot of which is pure fluff and thus likely still compatible with Ex3, and which can be found here.

    I think that's all of it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    *sees Slay-The-Storm*

    Using that for my Dusk Caste/Dawn Caste idea. :p
     
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