and the miracles that it may have discussed at some point are the province of Sorcerous Workings.

Ah, yes, "Miracles" such as warding a house against demons or channeling the voice of a ghost.

Things that, apparently, are impossible in 3e except for people with unknown and apparently unreproducable properties.

(Although, honestly, i don't really care. I can just ignore it, just like any other fluff that i don't like).
 
I think the biggest mistake people make is by comparing it with previous editions of Thaumturgy, because it doesn't work the same way at all and doesn't resemble it. It's essential a new thing, because the Thaumaturgy of 2nd Edition is completely gone and the miracles that it may have discussed at some point are the province of Sorcerous Workings.
Kinda? The thing is that the new Thaumaturgy has a lot of stuff from the old one, especially it's function. It's just no longer doing any of the interesting things thaumaturgy did regarding the setting. It's not a learned skill at heart. It's not essentially the physical expression of Creation's laws. It's another random magical power.

Yes, this is comparing the new to the old, but if you're going to have something with the same name, same general power level, and some of the same flavor, well, asking for no comparisons is just stupid.
1E and 2E's thaumaturgy effects have already been rolled into the lowest level of Terrestrial Circle Sorcerous Workings.
Not entirely. You can use it to accomplish the same effects, but workings are significantly more powerful, unique to the individual, and expensive to repeat
 
Basically, when 3e fails, it fails because it takes something from 2e and strips out the stuff that made it a statement or commentary on the setting. Or, when it attempts to maintain that, it does so in a very hamfisted manner.

Specific implementation aside, a lot of people liked 2e Thaumaturgy because it was science-magic, not 'Innate Special Person Magic'. We already have that- it's called Exaltation.

Now functionally, if sorcerous workings took over for what Thaumaturgy did, well, that's a thematic/branding issue more than anything.
 
Ah, yes, "Miracles" such as warding a house against demons or channeling the voice of a ghost.

Things that, apparently, are impossible in 3e except for people with unknown and apparently unreproducable properties.

I think you might be overstating the problem.

Does the Demon have a particular weakness? All you need to know is what that is to ward your house against it. Can you make a talisman that carte blanche wards you against all little demons forever? You need to be a weird magical person to do that.

Can the ghost possess someone? Just invite it to possess you. All you need to know is that you can do that, or that x or y place makes it easier or possible to do so. Can you allow any ghost to ride you at any time? That requires some kind of magical capability. Is that really weird? It's like psychics in an urban fantasy setting, or the witch who lives on the edge of the villages.

They're uncommon as a thing to make them remarkable, but if you want to make them more common, that's just really a tone decision.

I think what made a statement for 2e's setting doesn't make the same statement for 3e's setting, or confuses the issue. It being removed isn't a failure, it's a shift in focus. If that's what you're unhappy with, it might mean just using 2e's setting books for your basic background and one of a few magitech homebrew things people have made.
 
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They're uncommon as a thing to make them remarkable, but if you want to make them more common, that's just really a tone decision.
Not at all: if I make something an ability that can be learned, then even if it's rare that's a statement. There aren't many brain surgeons around, but it's within human capability, we can reproduce it. That's very different from a superpower that is inherently un-copyable unless one side wills it and can't be studied in any real manner. Even if the superpowers are very common, it's still a very different phenomenon than brain surgery.
 
Does the Demon have a particular weakness? All you need to know is what that is to ward your house against it.

Yeaah. Knowing the weakness spirits have that can be used to make wards is being a thaumaturge.

Seriously, that's it. Thaumaturgy is creation science. It's just about knowing things that you can use for your advantage in a number of ways.

Can the ghost possess someone? Just invite it to possess you. All you need to know is that you can do that, or that x or y place makes it easier or possible to do so.

And this is the same. Knowing the rituals that will invite a ghost to possess you is thaumaturgy as well.
 
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Not at all: if I make something an ability that can be learned, then even if it's rare that's a statement. There aren't many brain surgeons around, but it's within human capability, we can reproduce it. That's very different from a superpower that is inherently un-copyable unless one side wills it and can't be studied in any real manner. Even if the superpowers are very common, it's still a very different phenomenon than brain surgery.

I meant making people with the Thaumaturge merit a lot more common rather than making it a universally teachable trait. You *might* wind up with a more magitech type of setting because more people can potentially learn it, but it doesn't mean that all those people will be in a position to learn said powers and proliferate them, just that there's a greater potential among the populace.

Yeaah. Knowing the weakness spirits have that can be used to make wards is being a thaumaturge.

Seriously, that's it. Thaumaturgy is creation science. It's just about knowing things that you can use for your advantage in a number of ways.

That's what 2e's Thaumturgy was, which is evidently not what 3e's Thaumaturgy is.

If Blood Apes are allergic to salt, that's something innate to them. All you need to do is know that is true in order to use it against them. a 3e Thaumaturge does not need to know that, but might possess the talent to make a talisman which acts as a universal bane against all First Circle Demons.

Both of these things exist within the boundaries of 3rd Edition, it's just that one is the application of extant knowledge and the other is a special power. They don't actually do the same thing.

Hence, you can have the House of Thirty Seals in Nathir educating anybody in the populace on the weaknesses, behaviors and temptations of demons to best ward them off, and you can also have them hunting for those special people in the populace whose talents might allow them to make more potent magical tools to deal with them.
 
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It's essential a new thing, because the Thaumaturgy of 2nd Edition is completely gone and the miracles that it may have discussed at some point are the province of Sorcerous Workings.
In addition to the things said by the other peoples, another problem is that Second Edition Thaumaturgy has rituals that take less than the weeks necessary to do the simpliest things with Sorcerous Workings. Hell, most of the procedures only take an hour at most.
 
God, I despise Thaumaturgy-as-Creation-science.

But Ex3 didn't handle the change well. The actual strong fluff is full of references to minor enchantments, wards, talismans and lesser magic, not practiced by sorcerers but nonetheless taught and transmitted as a discipline. And then the rules go on to tell you that this doesn't exist.

Quite annoying.
 
I meant making people with the Thaumaturge merit a lot more common rather than making it a universally teachable trait. You *might* wind up with a more magitech type of setting because more people can potentially learn it, but it doesn't mean that all those people will be in a position to learn said powers and proliferate them, just that there's a greater potential among the populace.
I know that's what you meant. I was commenting on how that doesn't actually address the point Broken25 was making, or that others have made at other points. Hence, you know, comparing what you were saying to something else.
 
Given that to qualify as a coadjutor, a demon needs to be a proto-sublimati, that means that they've always undergone notable evolution and development from their base form. So yeah, I'd say that every coadjutor needs to be intelligent. However, that doesn't stop you from using a demon species that is, by default, mindless. It just means this specific specimen has learned and developed.

Hence, if you want a firmin coadjutor, feel free! It's a more powerful firmin that's developed a certain cunning and a grasp of language.

Right, right.

*tries to remember where sublimati are written up*
 
God, I despise Thaumaturgy-as-Creation-science.

But Ex3 didn't handle the change well. The actual strong fluff is full of references to minor enchantments, wards, talismans and lesser magic, not practiced by sorcerers but nonetheless taught and transmitted as a discipline. And then the rules go on to tell you that this doesn't exist.

Quite annoying.

"And this is why the flood created the valleys that make it look like the world isn't a thousand years old, and why God is the only creator of the world."
"But...who is this god?"
"Jesus Christ, of course! And if you pray hard, we can use it as a means of communicating with them. Also, Jesus rode the dinosaurs."
"What are dinosaurs?"
"Giant lizards."
"...oh shit!"
 
God, I despise Thaumaturgy-as-Creation-science.

But Ex3 didn't handle the change well. The actual strong fluff is full of references to minor enchantments, wards, talismans and lesser magic, not practiced by sorcerers but nonetheless taught and transmitted as a discipline. And then the rules go on to tell you that this doesn't exist.

Quite annoying.

I think it's just sort of confused, because I don't see where it says they doesn't exist, it just doesn't enumerate on how you make them. There's two kinds of talismans in the corebook for example, and we obviously can see the lesser magics are taught to and by thaumaturges with Sijan as the easiest example, but if you want to wrap your brain around how that works, you've got to ask the developers, because there wasn't enough space in the example.

I think they wanted to try to show how weird thaumaturgy could be with the example section, so they did that rather than show us workhorse abilities like wards or talismans, and that's how you get some interest, flavorful abilities which don't feel super applicable in a game. They definitely are making a statement about the world in choosing those, it's just that I'd rather have material I could make better use of directly.
 
God, I despise Thaumaturgy-as-Creation-science.

But Ex3 didn't handle the change well. The actual strong fluff is full of references to minor enchantments, wards, talismans and lesser magic, not practiced by sorcerers but nonetheless taught and transmitted as a discipline. And then the rules go on to tell you that this doesn't exist.

Quite annoying.

So I'm sure you've explained this before, but I wouldn't know the first place to even look for it. Why exactly is Thaumaturgy-as-science bad for you?
 
So I'm sure you've explained this before, but I wouldn't know the first place to even look for it. Why exactly is Thaumaturgy-as-science bad for you?

He thinks that stuff such as "breed horse" or "make alloy of steel" is boring to have as magic instead of just being inherent features of those Abilities.

And to be fair, I can kinda see his point.
 
I think even the pro-magic-science people would agree that some of the rituals went too far.

If I wanted to use the Mountain Folk in my games and wasn't satisfied by canon, I would probably draw upon @Crumplepunch's 2e rewrite, which sadly appears not to be collected in one place. It's a labor of love and Artisans carving themselves into fantastic shapes akin to Hindu demons for power and simple vanity is just pretty great.

Any chance of a link?

I generally like Crumplepunch's work, and I'd be keen to see his Mountain Folk.

I think the biggest mistake people make is by comparing it with previous editions of Thaumturgy, because it doesn't work the same way at all and doesn't resemble it.

How foolish, to compare a 3e concept to the 2e concept with the same name.
 
How foolish, to compare a 3e concept to the 2e concept with the same name.

I mean, sure?

If you compare them, you'll be disappointed. If you try to take them on their own merits, you'll at least be disappointed on its own merits.

Blame the devs if you'd like. I'm less interested in who to blame and more interested in navigating these concepts on their own. If you look at it as Thaumaturgy from 2e, you'll probably be disappointed. If you don't, maybe you won't be? It could be a stumbling block for people who might otherwise be okay with it, so perhaps it's worthwhile to point out that you will be disappointed if you don't try to look at it separate that association?

It's the same with, say, Vampire. I have no malice towards Masquerade, but if I warn you that going into Requiem looking at it with a desire for it to recapitulate concepts that share names, all that's going to happen is disappointment. In order to aid in the practice of reading, isn't it better to offer that suggestion, so people avoid getting stuck on "this thing is not the same" and instead evaluate it according to its own merits?
 
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So I'm sure you've explained this before, but I wouldn't know the first place to even look for it. Why exactly is Thaumaturgy-as-science bad for you?
Several things.

An important part of it is thematic. Thaumaturgy-as-science is one aspect of the Engineer's Guidebook to Creation, an approach which seeks to boil everything in Exalted down to either science or thinly veiled science pastiches that wink at the audience, or gross metaphors that purposefully strip down all mystique from the game because "smart" games are cynical and materialistic. It's the same idea as "Exaltations are an automated weapon system" and "humans are organic prayer engines." It's an entire approach to the setting that I dislike heavily, in no small part because it affects the way people talk about Exalted even when they agree with you on it's aspects - "the gods wanted to take their leisure at the Games of Divinity" becomes "the gods wanted the divine Xbox," for instance; it affects fan dialogue about the game because the point is to actively tear down all pretense of mystique and grandeur from the setting to turn it into something petty and trite because some people can't into subtlety.

(in many ways Creation is a cynical and pessimistic setting, but the line at it's best knows how to use subtlety and under text to achieve this, and contrasts it with splashes of idealism and grandeur)

Part of ut is that it also contributed to Sid Meier's Creation: Technology Victory. Thaumaturgy being pure science, completely rationalist and replicable, means it can be mass-taught and any mortal has an equal potential for it. This has led to books's worth of homebrew and fan discussion focused on making the One True Path of the game the mass enlightenment of mortals combined with mass education in thaumaturgy, attempting to replicate a modern setting with thaunaturgy as education turning it into an achievement, a checkbox in an increasingly codified roadmap to utopia. This impoverished the game and discussions thereof.

Those are the two aspects that most immediately come to mind.
 
It's the same with, say, Vampire. I have no malice towards Masquerade, but if I warn you that going into Requiem looking at it with a desire for it to recapitulate concepts that share names, all that's going to happen is disappointment. In order to aid in the practice of reading, isn't it better to offer that suggestion, so people avoid getting stuck on "this thing is not the same" and instead evaluate it according to its own merits?

That's a comparison which serves nothing.

VtR and VtM are completely different games. They have shared elements, but Requiem was explicitly and obviously a different game. Exalted 3e, as is somewhat a clue from the name, a new edition of the same game rather a new property.

You can't dodge such comparisons - especially when Exalted 3e was so shit about how it handled thauamaturgy.
 
Gotcha @Omicron

Hmm. It's a legitimate criticism, but your main problems seem to be with how the fandom interprets the setting, versus the actual words dedicated to Thaumaturgy. I do overall agree that these are bad mental states for people to approach Exalted.

Functionally, Exalted 2e was stronger because it allowed for the scientific method, instead of arbitrarily declaring that 'Magic' exists behind a black box. This black boxing is what 3e did at length and personally frustrates me to no end.

So in my mind, the ideal state would be a setting that sparing uses black boxes (See Exaltations). Somethings need black boxes, or at least closed boxes so that players and storytellers can find their own answers.

But obfuscating something behind 'Mystery' is equally lazy writing.
 
That's a comparison which serves nothing.

VtR and VtM are completely different games. They have shared elements, but Requiem was explicitly and obviously a different game. Exalted 3e, as is somewhat a clue from the name, a new edition of the same game rather a new property.

That's missing the practical, on the ground history they share, and the conceptual linkage between them. My point isn't to suggest they're right or wrong to call what they have in 3e Thaumaturgy. My point is that when people see the same word in these things which are conceptually similar but not the same, it can serve as a barrier to understanding, and trying to point that out to aid in understanding the thing on its own merits is a good thing. It isn't to deflect criticism, but to facilitate other kinds of criticism which might be more directly pertinent to the thing itself.

You can't dodge such comparisons - especially when Exalted 3e was so shit about how it handled thauamaturgy.

You absolutely cannot dodge comparisons, which is why it's all the more important to point it out, because you can get it out of the way that if you try to look at this thing as recapitulating the thing it shares a name with, you won't like it. If you look at it without that, you could, possibly, maybe, like it. It might serve to help alter the way you frame your understanding, so that if you're identifying problems, it's not merely that it isn't the same, but problems that are within the context of its presentation.

Anybody can say "I don't like the Nosferatu because they don't look at all like Count Orlok." But it might be helpful to those people to point out that they're not the same, because when they give it a chance and give it a read-through without that conceptual baggage, they might see that the new way their Curse works is intriguing for them, or they might even be able to identify problems with the premise of Requiem's Nosferatu that aren't just the fact that they aren't the Nosferatu of Masquerade.

Again, it isn't about whether it's right or wrong to share the name, it's just about helping people to navigate the concept when they might get stuck on that association. For some of you, evidently, that's enough and you're good with that. It might also be valuable for people who don't categorically reject 3e Thaumaturgy to to identify problems within the context of the idea that aren't merely that it doesn't work like 2e Thaumaturgy and doesn't serve the same purpose.

Gotcha @Omicron
Hmm. It's a legitimate criticism, but your main problems seem to be with how the fandom interprets the setting, versus the actual words dedicated to Thaumaturgy.

It sounds like it's both, because both the books and the fandom did that.
 
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