Again, it isn't about whether it's right or wrong to share the name, it's just about helping people to navigate the concept when they might get stuck on that association. For some of you, evidently, that's enough and you're good with that. It might also be valuable for people who don't categorically reject 3e Thaumaturgy to to identify problems within the context of the idea that aren't merely that it doesn't work like 2e Thaumaturgy and doesn't serve the same purpose.
You know, for someone who's constantly on about how people shouldn't simply judge two things because they share a name, you really don't seem to be putting much effort into actually addressing what they're saying. Or looking over what you say, given how you've both said that you cannot dodge comparisons but also that people who make comparisons between these two things (which you claim are utterly different) are making a mistake.

Personally, regarding the wonder argument, I find the current thaumaturgy utterly banal. Random powers with no backing or logic or really anything to do with them. Certainly the rules as presented don't seem to add to the setting, though as said the rules and the fluff don't really seem to have too much to do with each other. How unique.

Meanwhile, while thaumaturgy had a load of issues in it's implementation, but the idea that just about everyone could learn magical rituals that did minor, helpful things? That was cool. It made it seem as if Exalted wasn't superpowers on top of a mundane setting, but one that was actually magical all the way down.
 
You know, for someone who's constantly on about how people shouldn't simply judge two things because they share a name, you really don't seem to be putting much effort into actually addressing what they're saying. Or looking over what you say, given how you've both said that you cannot dodge comparisons but also that people who make comparisons between these two things (which you claim are utterly different) are making a mistake.

I didn't mean a mistake in the sense that they're wrong and bad for doing it, just a mistake in the sense that it could adversely effect their enjoyment/engagement with the text. Relax, dude, I'm saying that it's inevitable that two things which share a name will draw a comparison, and that sometimes that comparison will adversely effect their ability to engage with or enjoy what they're reading. These aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

Personally, regarding the wonder argument, I find the current thaumaturgy utterly banal. Random powers with no backing or logic or really anything to do with them. Certainly the rules as presented don't seem to add to the setting, though as said the rules and the fluff don't really seem to have too much to do with each other. How unique.

I wish that the thing we got called Thaumaturgy got less wordcount versus more discussion of how mortals engage with the supernatural, not necessarily as a grab-bag of magical tricks, but just as examples of the peculiar things about the world that some people like a shaman or an occultist might know and use.

I imagine that matches the description of Thaumaturgy in 2e, from reading about it, but I think they may have gone too far in that direction too with overly systematizing things, so it feels sort of like you just can't win.

Meanwhile, while thaumaturgy had a load of issues in it's implementation, but the idea that just about everyone could learn magical rituals that did minor, helpful things? That was cool. It made it seem as if Exalted wasn't superpowers on top of a mundane setting, but one that was actually magical all the way down.

I think I view it similarly, though I do prefer that these things are expressed as knowledge as opposed to power. Like the aforementioned example of warding against bad guys using their weaknesses, or knowing that the god who can do the thing prefers you make an offering of fig leaves burned with wormswood while you chant his favorite song. I think more actual discussion of those things would've better served the game than the examples of thaumaturgy we got.

Though by the same token, I can see how stuff like that just falls under the purview of regular social influence or Lore knowledge topics/introducing facts. A storytelling section would've been nice, because that kind of advice on how to plug those systems into things like the supernatural could've been really useful.
 
I think 2e style thaumaturgy should just be part of the relevant area of knowledge. Demon repellent under Occult, smithing in Craft, ecetra . That way, it is explicitly knowledge than can be taught, and makes the schoolteacher also the local witch/ creepy guy that talks too much about ghosts and demons.
 
there wasn't enough space
This excuse will never be enough for me. Not for Ex3, not for anything coming out of their material.

They wrote a book over twice the size of the previous Corebook and managed to say Less meaningful information than before, where they did it was confused, badly implemented or just plain gutted on the premise they disliked how it was previously and preferred to blank-slate rather than revise. They chose how long to make this book, how much effort was devoted to each section, and who got to write what things. You cannot blame the Wordcount Demon forever, not when you have every single aspect of the publication under your control.

If they managed to bodge up things that badly, that vital aspects of the setting and the understanding thereof needed to hit the editing room floor because God King's Shrike and other things like it had higher priority, you are saying they are incompetent designers more effectively than any rant I could make on the subject.
 
I think I view it similarly, though I do prefer that these things are expressed as knowledge as opposed to power. Like the aforementioned example of warding against bad guys using their weaknesses, or knowing that the god who can do the thing prefers you make an offering of fig leaves burned with wormswood while you chant his favorite song. I think more actual discussion of those things would've better served the game than the examples of thaumaturgy we got.

Though by the same token, I can see how stuff like that just falls under the purview of regular social influence or Lore knowledge topics/introducing facts. A storytelling section would've been nice, because that kind of advice on how to plug those systems into things like the supernatural could've been really useful.
Ah, so you like the idea of people having magical rituals intrinsic to the setting that allow them to engage with the supernatural elements in a intimate way, except being sterile book knowledge instead of rituals and having it be things that are just parts of the supernatural elements rather than something part of the setting, and thus not be intimate at all. So, nothing much like I was talking about.
 
I think the flavor would probably come from how individual groups and cultures relate to that kind of book knowledge, but I suppose there's not much else to be said about it. Sure.

This excuse will never be enough for me. Not for Ex3, not for anything coming out of their material.

They wrote a book over twice the size of the previous Corebook and managed to say Less meaningful information than before, where they did it was confused, badly implemented or just plain gutted on the premise they disliked how it was previously and preferred to blank-slate rather than revise. They chose how long to make this book, how much effort was devoted to each section, and who got to write what things. You cannot blame the Wordcount Demon forever, not when you have every single aspect of the publication under your control.

If they managed to bodge up things that badly, that vital aspects of the setting and the understanding thereof needed to hit the editing room floor because God King's Shrike and other things like it had higher priority, you are saying they are incompetent designers more effectively than any rant I could make on the subject.

I really wish they'd made space for it, among all the other things they made space for.
 
I think the flavor would probably come from how individual groups and cultures relate to that kind of book knowledge, but I suppose there's not much else to be said about it. Sure.
And for the third time today, that's not what I was talking about in my post. Yes, I'd expect the knowledge to be grounded in the culture, just like any other knowledge. Just like how in a modern supers setting you have the mundane world, but Superman is weak to this specific glowing green rock, or the various ways to trip up green lanterns exist. There's magic and fantastical elements, but they're carefully segregated from the mundane elements. The way 2nd edition thaumaturgy was presented, though, it seemed that the magic was part of people's everyday life. There were problems with that(as @Frakir's brother 's suggests, it really should have been more divided among abilities), but that sense is what I liked, that the setting was magic all the way down. Third edition feels like there's more of a disconnect there.
 
There's magic and fantastical elements, but they're carefully segregated from the mundane elements. The way 2nd edition thaumaturgy was presented, though, it seemed that the magic was part of people's everyday life.

I think it was lost among other things for me when I was looking through 2e books, but could you give me an example of this? Like, that moment where you felt you saw the two intertwined and it really gave you that warm feeling of liking it and finding it refreshing.
 
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Basically, when 3e fails, it fails because it takes something from 2e and strips out the stuff that made it a statement or commentary on the setting. Or, when it attempts to maintain that, it does so in a very hamfisted manner.

Specific implementation aside, a lot of people liked 2e Thaumaturgy because it was science-magic, not 'Innate Special Person Magic'. We already have that- it's called Exaltation.
Seriously, that's it. Thaumaturgy is creation science. It's just about knowing things that you can use for your advantage in a number of ways.
Functionally, Exalted 2e was stronger because it allowed for the scientific method, instead of arbitrarily declaring that 'Magic' exists behind a black box. This black boxing is what 3e did at length and personally frustrates me to no end.
Indeed. The scientificness of Thaumaturgy has always been a key element:
Exalted Players Guide said:
How Scientific Is (Thaumaturgy)? Neither alchemy, enchantment, geomancy nor weather working are sciences as we know them today — they are not based on the scientific method
Well, at least after 2e changed it from magic-magic invented by humans to science-magic that was natural divine processes.
 
I think it was lost among other things for me when I was looking through 2e books, but could you give me an example of this? Like, that moment where you felt you saw the two intertwined and it really gave you that warm feeling of liking it and finding it refreshing.

While not who you're asking,I want to weigh in on this-

For me, a lot of the great moments of thaumaturgy were stuff like in Oadenol's, where it expresses the idea that least gods talk to each other when performing stuff like 'clay turns to brick'. Functionally it's exactly the same as how we look at clay turning to brick, but with magic instead of chemistry and physics.

That particular example is divisive though for whatever reason.

A good example in my mind is that steel-making is essentially (unprinted) thaumaturgy, but here's the trick: The books give us rules on learning thaum, but those rules are very 'Player-centric' not 'Simulation of world'. So it makes it so that only 'wise old sages' know how to make steel, when really it should be 'steelworkers know how to make steel'.

These aren't the best examples I admit, but I feel they're relevant.
 
Sounds to me lile leet is saying "well you can just have rituals for warding and the like be stuff that exists in setting without the thaumaturgy mechanics of 2e."

The problem is that players want to use rituals if your setting says that rituals actually accomplish things. At which point your 3e GM has to homebrew his own mechanical implementation, at which point the 3e devs are yet again guilty of not doing the work (providing the mechanical scaffold for their setting's stories) they are actually being paid to do.
 
I'm not really saying it as an aegis against criticism, I'm griping that they chose to spend words on miracle-working which does also seem cool but leaves us without suggestions on how to use those other systems to demonstrate the relationship between humans and the supernatural. I would've found that a lot more helpful, though to me, it needn't be presented under a unified idea of thaumaturgy.

When communing with the gods is really just a fancy way to say you're going to go get their attention and ask them for a favor, I get that I don't need a whole separate system for that, but it'd be cool if there was some advice on how to handle it, for example. I'd probably like that more than the ritual to go kill kids in Medo, because both say something about how the world works, but one happens everywhere and the other happens in Medo.

if making talismans is an example of thaumaturgy, I wish they'd put that in there as opposed to Unquenchable Flame. I can tell that talismans like the one the Sijanese Dead-Speaker has or the ones in the Everyday Wonders section are both made by thaumaturgy, so I'm not having that conceptual issue, but I'm finding myself wishing we'd gotten a thaumaturgy ritual for making those rather than the bread splitter, even though I think the weirdness of the bread splitting existing is also cool.

So there's two points here: One, that a bunch of stuff that might've been thaumaturgy in 2e seems better covered by just being applied examples of extant skills in 3e. It would've been cool to get that kind of stuff described, both because it's relevant to actual play and to give a stronger sense of the world's relationship with the supernatural. I'm bummed we didn't get that.

Two: that other stuff which was also thaumaturgy in 2e might still be thaumaturgy in 3e as suggested by parts of the books, but is frustratingly not part of the slice of thaumaturgy we get described in the core.

I suspect you need the Thaumaturge merit to make talismans. I suspect that, in-setting, there exists a thaumaturgy ritual that allows you to make the talismans described in the book, or might be able to craft special, all-purpose wards which might have also been described. These are not the rituals we get described in the book, and I wish they were. We can at least take heart in the notion that you can make them using the framework, but I wish they'd been the ones that were selected to receive coverage in the core. Darn.

If it helps broadly with reading my posts, I'll just add the disclaimer that I'm not defending the devs in their failure to elaborate on x or y thing, merely trying my best to scavenge something useful from whatever is actually there. Offering the suggestion that talismans are a product of thaumaturgy is just that, not an endorsement of their decision to leave the rules for making them out of the core. I really wish those rules had been in there. At the very least, we might be able to infer that is the case and make a thaumaturgy ritual with rules for that to try and address it.

If the need to do so reflects poorly on the devs (I suppose it does) then that's their problem. I just want material I can use, and griping about them not including it can feel less useful than just trying to fill in the hole myself or with the help/work of others. I sympathize for those GMs who lack the time/effort/desire to actually do it, and hope that whatever is produced of such a discussion might be useful to them. That's all I'm trying to say with regards to making things like talismans or wards via thaumaturgy.

I resent them for making me make my own thaumaturgy ritual to do it. I'm still gonna make the ritual, but I do resent it.
 
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Here is the big thing that people are missing, that the specificity of Thaumaturgy writeups were important worldbuilding disguised as mechanics. There were no "+1 to breeding a horse" or "roll Occult to emulate 21st century science" Procedures, never has been, nor was there anything of "physics" in the particulars save that of people who want an easy strawman to rail against. Husbandry and Enchantment were not the end-all-be-all of the things, and without elaborating on the actual practices being made, you lose out on an entire foundation which sets up what Creation is intended to be.

Like, lets take a fucking look at this really, using Oadenol's Codex:
Even in the Art of Alchemy, it tells you how the Magical Materials are created outright, and spots you a difficulty to attempt by yourself. It tells you how to define unidentifiable or magical substances with specially-prepared plates, it establishes the kind of basic healing (which defaults to "As Exalted"), temporary-buff and utility practices mortals have access too ("Thaum is lame because its for making soap" goes here, but that's a single wildcard Procedure out of the list). It shows how you can make basic explosives and poisons, as well as low-tier "Artifacts" like 8-Scream Devil Powder without hauling out the Craft rules, explaining their prevalence.

Art of Astrology lays out in its very description that the sky is alight with stars for every god and creature, that the Exalted and essence-wielders can defy predictions of fate, and that even the Loom does not enforce exact events where free will would prevent this. On the ground level, it gives the closest thing to "personal-scrying" that mortals have access too, which means that the information they can glean from out of Nowhere includes: Someone's date of birth, a major competency (Favored Ability), the status of someone being Exalted or blessed by a god/powerful destiny, a prominent passion (primary Virtue), and determining whether something is composed of Starmetal or not (its subtle, not rippling rainbow-steel!).

Arts of the Dead shows that people can choose to go into the Underworld willingly and back again via shadowland borders, establishes that summoned ghosts are audible and visible but immaterial unless its in a shadowland, shows that its possible for mortals to see and identify ghosts and dead spirits with only proper preparation, why blood magic is so widespread, how to set up sentries or glean information about a massacre site using the skulls of the dead and asking questions about what it has seen since its body died, and keeping crude intelligence and cunning for hungry ghosts longer than three days.

Art of Demon Summoning establishes that yes, mortals Can go tapping into the surrender-oaths, even if only to peel them open for a bit to permit a demon passage through, not exact servitude. There is literally a procedure for contacting a demon within Malfeas and abusing the five-day-delay to ask about future events, which is another "everyday people can be stupid enough to try this" plot hook.

Art of Elemental Summoning follows the same general structure of Demon Summoning, including elemental-sight, but uses its wordcount to point out that yes unworked Jade stores elemental essence within it, and pieces of it can be used as a medium to invoke magic in ways the other materials do not. It also shows how mere mortals can duplicate minor elemental effects on objects (like a single use of Elemental Benediction, for up to a scene).

Art of Enchantment shows how little education is necessary to determine if something is magical or not and for what purpose it serves. It is a Difficulty 1 Occult roll and takes about five minutes. It shows that enchantments can apply temporary colors or textures to objects, transfer magical properties from one object to another, and creates a sub-tier for non-Artifact Talismans of the "reroll a thing/+1 to a thing" variety as Warding Talismans.

Art of Geomancy is the most important one, because it actually illustrates the ways that Creation's mortals interact with the land in the form of magical demesnes and dragon-lines. Notably, they can Find them and recognize them, the exact type of essence at work, and even the stress-points which could cause them to react violently. Using a Hearthstone, someone can follow it directly back to the manse which created it. Furthermore, Geomancy allows someone to locate spirit sanctums and fiddle with the essence-respiration of the spirit inside, usually provoking it to come out and see what the nuisance is. And finally, it get to Actual scrying and clairvoyance on objects or people within several miles through the use of an arcane link.

Art of Husbandry gets the most flack for being "micromanage your crop yields and cows" but the point here is that it establishes this level of sophistication is Commonplace. Judging a diseased or magical creature apart from a normal one, warding a crop from pests, these are Basic tricks that literally anyone with the tiniest bit of occult dabbling can accomplish, while summoning up herds or flocks of animals, if not communicating with them simple instructions to follow, require only a bit more work than that. It can also summon people, including Exalted, to travel to a given place as Unnatural Mental Influence, albeit weakly-enforced. This shit is Important to know!

The Art of Spirit Beckoning is a brief one, but is a worthwhile note because it follows up on the Dead/Demon/Elemental-sight variants so that yes, mortals can see immaterial gods with preparation as well. The presence of the Hecatomb and the Tauroboleum of Ahlat's cult as examples show just how involved the greater rituals can be, and how they extend into full-production ceremonies.

And now we get to the Art of Warding and Exorcism, and I think people don't really give it enough credit for how much kit it actually lays out for mortals. "Warding" means more than just keeping something out, but also forcing it to spend Willpower to approach, triggers alarms which can be keyed to specific things, magically locks doors and gateways. "Exorcism" means not simply blocking a possessing spirit, but also physically striking immaterial foes and demarking out a place where that spirit cannot Be for an extended period of time, from hours to weeks. This is readily-available stuff, meaning that mortals are not hapless victims to supernatural ploys.

Lastly, we have the Art of Weather Working, which is also brief but it says a lot about mortal interaction with the supernatural world in its own way, by specifically noting that the Council of Winds are what determine Creation's weather, under the orders of the Bureau of Seasons, but are willing to provide information about their doings and even alter the courses of weather patterns with little prompting for brief times.

ALL of this information is contained in just the general writeups, and presented all in one place, rather than seeded out across multiple sections across several books as throw-away lines actually shows that Creation actually has a lot more going for it than just being rudimentary Bronze Age dirtfarmers giving their pigs +1die against plague and wearing iron nails for -1 die against Fair Folk glamours. And ALL of this gets tossed aside completely when you dumb it all down to that level of "roll some dice and make shit up," making the setting and game infinitely poorer for the omission.
 
Kudos to this, because it may take a double reading of the passages involved, but this is world building of a useful scale that depicts culture, education, daily life, and the shape of the world of Creation.
 
Several things.

An important part of it is thematic. Thaumaturgy-as-science is one aspect of the Engineer's Guidebook to Creation, an approach which seeks to boil everything in Exalted down to either science or thinly veiled science pastiches that wink at the audience, or gross metaphors that purposefully strip down all mystique from the game because "smart" games are cynical and materialistic. It's the same idea as "Exaltations are an automated weapon system" and "humans are organic prayer engines." It's an entire approach to the setting that I dislike heavily, in no small part because it affects the way people talk about Exalted even when they agree with you on it's aspects - "the gods wanted to take their leisure at the Games of Divinity" becomes "the gods wanted the divine Xbox," for instance; it affects fan dialogue about the game because the point is to actively tear down all pretense of mystique and grandeur from the setting to turn it into something petty and trite because some people can't into subtlety.
.
As someone who subscribes to "the divine xbox" the issue is that the games are deliberately a cause of pleasure pursued to the degradation of all other accomplishments and purpose. that's either drugs OR for slightly less maligned but often as indicative of dissolution or irresponsibility video games. something pursued to the point all other aspects fall to waste. The GoD aren't enlightening, or promote peace only entertainment and sensations of such. They are first described as such and exposure is deliberating noted as addicting to pc types and annihilating to plebian characters. The cynicism is baked in with the glorious often Christian seeming Sun regularly acting, motivated, and so on like an old school deity. Or the solar's priest cast ultimately being good at brainwashing through entertainment and a little personal survival while the engineering caste knows how to control and interact with the gods and reveal truth, force confessions, hear lies, and other things attiributed to someone acting to bring purity to the world. the diplomats run institutions. and etc. You can't avoid that's the point along with Regent Fokuff, and the Solar's often not being shining heroes so much as uncomfortable antiheroes. Dace the mercenary.

that magic is a craft/science was from early 1e, it was put aside for other reasons and we ended up with the well intentioned if confused Thaumturgy of 1e-2e which often came close to be powerful out of low investment and high versatility and powerful effect unlike Sorcery which was high investment with little to no versatility (minus four or eight very potent exceptions, one rhymes with Subdue Jim Maglem) with a number of lameass effects. It bloated, like everything, but it still had a decent enough point. The idea that magic is a practice everyone deals with makes the paranormal.. sort of normal and critical and changes but not destroys the meaning of roles like, mortician, priest, navigator, and so on. If anything making things so its ultimately more materialist/tecnicall as WE know it, as to Creation would live it was the problem and again I think that was more accerbated by Sidereals than anything.

Mind that doesn't mean there isn't truth and virtue but its not *easy.* There is no team to sign up and have all your actions forevermore untainted by need, history, or the results to bring it to power.

And most of this stuff is upfront. From the beginning the solars may be returned from a night of mass backstabbing.. but because they became so monstrous they drove people too it. The excessive empire seeks to aggrandize itself on the world to feed itself more than better the people about it as their religion is mostly to venerate themselves and based on lies proving its only a few centuries old and not "since the beginning of time." The Sidereals see fate but that mostly means manipulate things according to plans they can control, understand, and feel are safe. they are the most right and STILL have enormous oversights. the Abyssals preach of perfected undead existence...as a sham to act as the swords of the Malfeans (remember that title) who hate the world as it murdered them.

Its a world of many competing myths where truth can be changed if you have enough power, maybe, but turly the powerful are always frail and like the powerless deep down.
So the biggest good is when the mighty aid the weak and remember they are different but the same. And that's very very difficult when its easier to exercise power for self satisfaction and not out of obligation and responsibility with community of others. which makes the Games such a great metaphor that doesn't break down if you make them drugs or video games.
 
I really wish they'd made space for it, among all the other things they made space for.

If they were trying to make space, they wouldn't have written out the rules for Legendary Size eight times. They wouldn't have moved Charm effects into space-eating sidebars. They wouldn't have used such a verbose writing style, and they wouldn't have arranged the NPC statblocks in such a space-hungry way.

Everything about Ex3 screams that space was never a concern.

I know the writers have lamented space constraints. I have no idea why. Because one look at the book makes it clear that the complaints are rubbish.

...it affects fan dialogue about the game because the point is to actively tear down all pretense of mystique and grandeur from the setting to turn it into something petty and trite because some people can't into subtlety.

I agree with your complaints about cynicism and science fetishism. But I actually like tearing down the pretense of mystique and grandeur. Because honestly, it was only ever exactly that - a pretense. Giving mystique and grandeur to things that don't exist is a very very difficult task, and Exalted never came remotely close to succeeding.
 
On an entirely personal note, the denial of Thaumaturgy as something meaningful to the setting also denies us the significance behind the story of The Man Who Was Hawk, the short chapter-fiction presented before the original 1e Thaumaturgy rules, which remains one of the most evocative and satisfying pieces of work to come out of the whole damn thing. I highly recommend everyone read it.

If you're alright with setting that aside, and saying its fine that those stories aren't really worth highlighting for the sake of mystery and Magical Magics, I'm not sure we're looking at the same game anymore.
 
On an entirely personal note, the denial of Thaumaturgy as something meaningful to the setting also denies us the significance behind the story of The Man Who Was Hawk, the short chapter-fiction presented before the original 1e Thaumaturgy rules, which remains one of the most evocative and satisfying pieces of work to come out of the whole damn thing. I highly recommend everyone read it.

If you're alright with setting that aside, and saying its fine that those stories aren't really worth highlighting for the sake of mystery and Magical Magics, I'm
not sure we're looking at the same game anymore.

Its things like that, and the strawmaiden Janet thing that makes me actually interested in Chapter fiction and the world, not much of the stuff we got otherwise.
 
On an entirely personal note, the denial of Thaumaturgy as something meaningful to the setting also denies us the significance behind the story of The Man Who Was Hawk, the short chapter-fiction presented before the original 1e Thaumaturgy rules, which remains one of the most evocative and satisfying pieces of work to come out of the whole damn thing. I highly recommend everyone read it.

If you're alright with setting that aside, and saying its fine that those stories aren't really worth highlighting for the sake of mystery and Magical Magics, I'm not sure we're looking at the same game anymore.
This is a good story! It would fit in Ex3's fluff, too.

Again, the idea of thaumaturge crafters weaving enchantments in their work and creating complex designs where the line blurs between magic and engineering is right there, in the fluff. The rules just decided to describe a completely different world for... Some reason. But nobody shanked The Man Who Was Hawk in a dark alley.

But conversely, that story has no need for thaumaturgy to be Creation's applied physics either.
 
Here is my take on 'science magic'.

What I want from the gameline is rules. X does Y, A leads to B. This helps me define what Creation is. "Just wave your hands and make shit up" doesn't help me. If I wanted to just make shit up why am I buying your books?

For me, creativity comes from limits. This is why I find it easier to write fanfiction than regular fiction, because fanfiction has constraints immposed by the source material while staring at a blank white text document feels me with dread. Creation is more vibrant and alive and easier for me to riff off of and derive plots for when I have rules that the world operates under.
 
I've seen that kind of thing described before. I like tabletop games for similar reasons, but it strikes me that in the situation you're describing, a writer's bible might be more helpful than a tabletop rulebook.

Are broad guidelines like "There are many strange creatures which defy categorization" the frustrating part, as opposed to being able to class all things as being Elemental/God/Wyld/Underworld/Hell?

I'm reminded of how many writers are enamored with the idea of coming up with intricate ways of describing how magic works in fantasy settings, while some consider that absolutely hideous. I like guidelines and strategically placed restrictions, but appreciate when something is flexible. It's part of why I really liked Hunter: The Vigil's Horrors, because they could shake players out of the easy mindset of going "Oh, that's a Ventrue, using Dominate." and allowed for a more exciting sense of mystery. It's very different from having to present an entirely new world like one might have to in fantasy or science fiction, though. It brings to mind how Eclipse Phase has the dual struggle of emulating genre and giving you the "physics" of the world in one ruleset. I feel like Exalted sometimes has that issue too, though I suspect, for better or worse, that Ex3 seems to be interested in the genre emulation over the physics. I got the impression that they may have felt that the physics approach was constraining.
 
I think it was lost among other things for me when I was looking through 2e books, but could you give me an example of this? Like, that moment where you felt you saw the two intertwined and it really gave you that warm feeling of liking it and finding it refreshing.
Largely similar to Shyft.
If they were trying to make space, they wouldn't have written out the rules for Legendary Size eight times. They wouldn't have moved Charm effects into space-eating sidebars. They wouldn't have used such a verbose writing style, and they wouldn't have arranged the NPC statblocks in such a space-hungry way.

Everything about Ex3 screams that space was never a concern.

I know the writers have lamented space constraints. I have no idea why. Because one look at the book makes it clear that the complaints are rubbish.
Have they made those complaints about 3ed? I know they've made them previously, and I have some sympathy: page limitations do mean that you have to cut content. Of course, the other side is that sometimes content should be cut.
 
Have they made those complaints about 3ed?

Yes. Apparently space prevented them from including more backstory blurbs for NPC statblocks.

Also I read somewhere that some of the non-backer Charms in the backer Charm PDF were cut from the corebook for space. But I'm pretty sure Holden said they didn't cut any Charms for space, and while his honesty is questionable I see no reason for him to lie about this in particular. So I'm less sure about that.
 
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