Which isn't related to what I was saying. In fact, I agree with that!

I was saying that if something involves engineering, it involves applied physics.
He said the story referenced is a mix of magic and engineering (which, again, really just makes it engineering that uses magic), but doesn't require thaumaturgy to be applied physics.

In Denmark, we have a saying that's called "Goddag med et økseskaft", which becomes "Hello with an axe-shaft" when roughly translated. This does not in fact refer to our tendency of breaking down the doors of our enemies with axes before we plunder their cities and steal their women/men/children/pets/stuff that isn't nailed down/bolts that nail stuff down, but is instead a fancy way of saying "we're talking past each other, so much right now".

And I believe that's our problem right now.

Because I don't think @Omicron actually subscribes to the "everything is magic" view of Creation. I believe that he does see a distinction between magical or mundane, while you (and I for that sake) subscribe to the "everything has a god, and everything is an interaction between those" view of Creation. Thus, to this view of Creation, he did indeed contradict himself, but in his view of Creation, there is no such contradiction because there is a legitimate difference between magical and mundane as opposed to our view, where mundane is simply another way of saying magical.

I hope this is the correct interpretation of his stance and views anyways, I don't actually have a path into his mind that lets me speak for him.

Sadly, because if I had, I'd use it to steal all his homebrew ideas and do writeups for them before he did, and then I would laugh at him for I had attained sovereignty over his homebrew, and thus I had attained sovereignty over him.

Or not.
 
Maybe this quote can clear the position of the devs?

One of the purposes of walling thaumaturgy behind a Merit and making it specifically miracle-working (in the sense where miracle means inexplicable and not-repeatable-by-just-anyone) was to move the area of mortal competence back to something resembling mortal competence.

That is, mortals in Creation, absent Exaltation, other divine blessing, sorcerous initiation, or the thaumaturgy merit, are no more capable of working magic than they have been in real life in the past. You can brew bark to make aspirin but you can't make arbitrary healing potions or freeform potion magic as such. People in Creation can certainly try to be alchemists, and many do, but in the same sense that Creation has a lot of people who make a living as tea-readers without possessing the Read Tea Leaves Thaumaturgy Merit without even realizing they're frauds.

Now, Creation has the concept of alchemists both in the sense of "primitive chemists" and "people who seek the Philosopher's Stone," and the latter even have an established body of knowledge associated with it that e.g. an initiated sorcerer can use to suss out how to give himself those internal alchemy Merits... but without sorcerous initiation or Exaltation or something, a would-be alchemist has only slightly more chance of successfully brewing a draught of immortality as someone in the real 14th century did of using dung and crushed beetles and mirrors to turn lead into gold (that is to say, only slightly more than none, and only in the sense that there's nothing stopping you from playing a mortal sorcerer whose background is alchemical breakthrough leading to self-initiation).

That said, Creation has a bunch of stuff in it that can be used to make what would be impossible magical potion IRL, but in Creation is just... chemistry. Age-Staving Cordials. Maiden Tea. Draughts of Miraculous Health. Ghost-Flower Tea. These are probably made using an appropriate Craft, which you might as well call Craft (Alchemy). The rules for these are basically "The books have a list of potions and cordials and things and you can make those assuming you have access to appropriate ingredients as decided by the ST, and if you want to invent more, you'll need to discuss with the ST whether the existence of whatever new potion you're trying to invent is a good addition to the setting or not."

To the extent that you disagree whether removal of "basically freeform alchemist who is constantly inventing new potions but who is otherwise a pure mortal" from the setting was a good idea or not, neither the setting nor the system will assist you in finding an "officially sanctioned" "fix." The Thaumaturgy Merit doesn't mean that alchemy now falls under Craft rather than Occult; the Thaumaturgy Merit now means that "mortal alchemists" as they existed under the 2e thaumaturgy system are no longer a thing.

If you dislike this you are encouraged to house rule it. It's your game! But you're likely to grow frustrated if you seek textual evidence of one set of designer intentions when the designers are working along a different set of intentions.
 
Maybe this quote can clear the position of the devs?


Hey, remeber how I came to Exalted not for wuxia but for animism?

Yeah, fuck the 3e devs.

If being a mortal with four dots in occult doesn't let me do a few things that the Taoist priests in my chinese fairy tales do unless i have a merit that they don't even properly explain where it comes from, well, time to erase their nonsense and port in 2e thaum.

Hell, if they said thaumaturgy was like Martial Arts, and the merit represented initiation from a learned master Baba/Wise Woman/Mystic I could accept it at least on the conceptual level. As is, it comes accriss as "some people are just born special," which Should at most be a sorcerous initiation if you use it, not how thaum works.
 
If being a mortal with four dots in occult doesn't let me do a few things that the Taoist priests in my chinese fairy tales do unless i have a merit that they don't even properly explain where it comes from, well, time to erase their nonsense and port in 2e thaum.

I know right?

Making the occult guy pay extra to know how to ward ghosts, and other such things, it's exactly the same thing that making the melee guy pay extra to know how to stab things.
 
That's all so players can be Mirror Flag, a previous NPC who did that with his own custom charms originally.

Which by the way, is incredibly dumb because Mirror Flag can be emulated with nothing more than two things; the Mask artifact and the charm Perfect Mirror. Everything else was either a kind of Limit Break or just, you know, roleplaying.

Characters like the Mirror Flag are interesting because they take a universal tool set and use it in an interesting and unique way based on their personality. They say not only 'hey, I can be this exact character concept' but also 'I can take these tools and use them in my own unique combination with some roleplay and be just as interesting!'
 
I have been looking more quotes.

Creation has stuff that people can just do that IRL would be impossible magic, just by virtue of Creation having a lot of baked-in magic. You don't need to be a magician or a seer to design a manse; you just need a really solid grounding in geomancy, which in Creation is just math.

2e's answer to this is "There really isn't impossible mortal-level magic; it's all just skill," as represented by 2e's thaumaturgy system.

3e wants to have it both ways. There's thaumaturgy, which is genuine impossible magic tricks that you can never learn as "just skill" if you don't have the gift of magic, and then there's just stuff people can do like manse design. And because we're early in the edition, the lines haven't been formalized yet, but we're used tobeing able to talk about it in terms of highly formalized lines like 2e's thaumaturgy. Which side of the line does making maiden tea fall? I would say it's just Craft. A book may disagree later.

My conclusion: They are just being inconsistent.
 
The Art of Husbandry and a couple others are particularly interesting. For all that they call it the "The Age of Sorrows," I'd never really realized that Creation was intended to be an idyllic agricultural paradise. That never really came across in the other books.
Not quite, because there is a difference between having useful knowledge, and ideal circumstances for applying that knowledge.

Most people I know are aware of how to balance a checkbook and cook themselves dinner, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are all budget-conscious thrifty spenders and eating super-nutritious meals. Checking the quality of animals, calming and controlling them, and warding your crops from pests and disease are Useful and Practical, but they don't do much to help sell those animals at-market or keep them safe from predators, allay the effects of a drought or bad growing season, or to harvest those crops when ol' Pa is getting long in years and can't bend his knees like he used too anymore. These things only help shift the focus away from "the somethings wrong with the cows and the wheat," into something more measurable, and remove some, but not all, obstacles towards having a sustainable lifestyle.

Secondly it comes down to time and effort, because things like Weather-working are only a brief respite rather than a fix-all solution. You have swayed the spirits to bring you rain for today, but what about tomorrow, or the day after that? Do you dare displease the Council of Winds by constantly hassling them to conform to your needs? You assured that every calf on your plot will be born healthy and strong, but it will still be months before you'll see any return on that investment, which is more than enough time for lurking bandits, wolves or worse to come and snatch them out from under you.

External forces and malicious actors can still come into things and ruin all this planning and work, like a passing Realm legion who has decided to "give you a deal" on your animals or harvest, and you'd be well-advised to take that deal, old man. So while there is certainly a Chance for achieving an idyllic and pastoral life, its not anymore an assurance than gathering personal wealth can be. Troubles will always find you, but at least you have the option to determine what troubles those will Not be from time to time.
 
EarthScorpion's Homebrew: The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions
Blargh.

Well, finally got around to cleaning up The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions and purging a bunch of the old junk Charms that were just terribly written (the old deprecated document has been copied out so if you really want manse-babies and the like, you can). Also, finally got Malfean "curing you with radiation" working to my satisfaction (for now, at least).
 
@Leetsepeak: You asked for my Ex3 homebrew collected in one place, well, here it is.

Obligatory disclaimer: uuuurgh I haven't been written nearly as much as I intended to and some of this stuff is baaaaad

But well, here it is.

Omicron's Ex3 Homebrew & Actual Play

Characters

Ashigure, Goddess of Reefs and Safe Harbors (Goddess)
Mandragore, the Hangman's Daughter (Greater Dead)
Skarbimir Rignys, Wolf-Prince of the White Barrows (Hungry Ghost)
The Whisperers (Ghostly Race)
The First Quarry (Undead Monsters)

Artifacts
The Mourning Queen's Regalia (Soulsteel Armor, Daiklave and Shield)
Star-Shrouded Heart (Orichalcum and Red Jade Direlance)
The Tatters of the King (Corrupted Silken Armor)
Last Thunder (Orichalcum Direlance)
Slay-the-Storm (Orichalcum Direlance; compare/contrast Last Thunder)
The Broken Tower (White Jade Armor)
Moon-Chained-in-Ink (Moonsilver Tattoo Armor)

Sidereal Martial Arts

Osseous Hour of Misfortune ("you're gonna have a bad time")
Gilded Blossoms of Determination ("In this world, it's kill or be killed.")
Obsidian Shards of Infinity

Sorcery
The Broken Fire (Sorcerous Initiation)
The Question (Necromancy Initiation)

Actual Play: Gloam City Nights
Intro - Dramatis Personae
Session One - Meet Gloam
Session Two - Lighthouse Fight
Session Three - Meet White Raven | Ein's Story
Session Four - Meet Black Dove
Session Five - Return To The Slums
Session Six - The Silence She Speaks
Session Seven - The Ghost and the Child


The above list does not include my 2e homebrew, a lot of which is pure fluff and thus likely still compatible with Ex3, and which can be found here.

I think that's all of it.

Thanks so much! Excited to peek through it all.
 
Blargh.

Well, finally got around to cleaning up The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions and purging a bunch of the old junk Charms that were just terribly written (the old deprecated document has been copied out so if you really want manse-babies and the like, you can). Also, finally got Malfean "curing you with radiation" working to my satisfaction (for now, at least).

Oh my, I was wondering whenever you might get back to fixing that thing up.
 
@EarthScorpion, in your Kerisgame hacks document, you document the favoured abilities of the Solars, Dragon-blooded, and the Sidreals, but not the Lunars. Which attributes would the Lunars have under the condensed attribute system?
 
Not quite, because there is a difference between having useful knowledge, and ideal circumstances for applying that knowledge.

More importantly; Creation is a setting where roving bands of soul-eating faeries, gods who demand tribute and can back it up with unstoppable calamities, Exalted despots, the hungry dead and dozens of other horrors are actively imposing their will on the population.

The Art of Husbandry doesn't make it hard to believe they're stuck in the early iron age. The Art of Husbandry explains why they aren't all dead.
 
I believe I asked this before, but it might be worth asking again: What are your guys' favorite Elementals? Least favorites? Have you homebrewed any Elementals for any edition, and would you care to share them?

Relatedly, I went hunting for the Flame Duck from previous editions, and after reading their 1e write up and comparing it with their 2e, what is the deal with all that wordcount on the NPC? It feels so distracting.

Llama-yus are weird. Cool, but weird. The mental image of any kind of domesticated llama-yu not controlled by an elemental court is a totally wild idea. It makes me imagine a llama-yu baron who extorts southern towns by using his herd to scare away stampeding llama-yus, which is weird, given that they are all giant flaming eyeballs.
 
What frustrates me about a lot of these discussions (this one has been quite pleasant though), is the idea that some people present as "Because you can get it wrong, you shouldn't try." This is especially true in the science = magic stuff.

Fundamentally, the point of Creation science being magic, isn't to make it acausal, 'black box magic', but to say that everything that happens or can be done is in some way magical, even if in all practical terms, it's perfectly normal looking.

Like, making steel in Creation doesn't look different than making steel on Earth- it doesn't have to. But the visual language changes the more and more elaborate you get until instead of the Bessimer Process you have the Red Jade Purification Strategm, but functionally it ends in "You get a lot of high quality steel."

on the note of 3e style 'character mechanics', I wanted to perform a thought experiment about how each Splat should be able to achieve a similar effect to the Moses Charms. These aren't fully realized charm writeups, just descriptions of the directions and themes they use.
  • Solar: Being a human means you use skill and talent to achieve this end, so you predict or assess that something could happen, and engage with the forces that make it happen (like gods). But you do so from a position of 'ground level authority'. This would be as much a prognostication effect as it is a prayer effect.
    • The intent here is to say that Solars CAN do predictions as part of Solar thematic, but they are Human-style predictions, like measuring temperature and humidity and the moods of local elementals.
  • Lunar: Based on natural law and innate ability, the Lunar would less be interested in making a direct event happen, and more arranging the conditions for that event. I would envision their version of the effect be 'create a path of least resistance'. It may even drill down to something almost like the Lunar recognizes what needs to happen to arrnage for a flood,and has to melt the glaciers or dam the river themselves to see it pass- but they know.
  • Sidereal: Having authority over the workings of Heaven, the Sidereals do not predict things happening, they plan for them to happen. In this case, the Sidereals would have the most straight forward 'Event' magic.
    • It would be notable, that a Sidereal can arrange for a flood to wipe out a village... but they would be hard pressed to use that flood on a single person.
  • Dragonblooded: It would be easy, almost lazy to say that a teamwork effect could create a prognosis mechanic, but I would rather see that in an Earth or Air aspected Charm, allowing them to sense elemental movements and processes instead of recognizing trends or engineering events.
  • Abyssals: Like the Solars, they would likely use analysis and measurement, but focused on upon the Underworld and similar.
  • Infernals: By their nature, Infernals likely come with omen weather and disasters as incidental effects as opposed to their core 'Get Stuff Done' magic'.
  • Alchemicals: Similiar to both Dragonblooded and Lunars, Alchemicals would be primairly focused on sensing natural (geomechanical) events and accounting for them, but not invoking them. Not without prayer at least.
So those are my thoughts. I don't presume to say this is healthy thematic design space, but it is doable. (I don't actually like the moses Charms, I would rather see that sort of thing in Sorcery).
 
Infernals: By their nature, Infernals likely come with omen weather and disasters as incidental effects as opposed to their core 'Get Stuff Done' magic'.

I did something rather different for Cecelyne's "prophecy" Charm - that is to say, it assumes you're entirely capable of manufacturing or predicting a disaster in your own right (especially if you have Endless Desert Shintai), and so the "prophet" Charm is all about giving arbitrary tasks that they need to fulfil [1] that if they follow, helps their actions to try to avert the disaster you've foretold and if they don't follow cripples their preparations to try to deal with it.

(then that lets you come back to them when the place is starving because they didn't follow your tasks when you warned them about crop failure so all their attempts to prepare for famine were crippled, and use that as the building block to make sure they listen to you next time)

[1] "Let all your slaves go!"
 
I did something rather different for Cecelyne's "prophecy" Charm - that is to say, it assumes you're entirely capable of manufacturing or predicting a disaster in your own right (especially if you have Endless Desert Shintai), and so the "prophet" Charm is all about giving arbitrary tasks that they need to fulfil [1] that if they follow, helps their actions to try to avert the disaster you've foretold and if they don't follow cripples their preparations to try to deal with it.

(then that lets you come back to them when the place is starving because they didn't follow your tasks when you warned them about crop failure so all their attempts to prepare for famine were crippled, and use that as the building block to make sure they listen to you next time)

[1] "Let all your slaves go!"

Well, that is a more nuanced approach, but the fact is I'm the Solar Guy first and foremost, so I can't pull a Yozi charm carrot/stick out of thin air as easily as you can.
 
Well, that is a more nuanced approach, but the fact is I'm the Solar Guy first and foremost, so I can't pull a Yozi charm carrot/stick out of thin air as easily as you can.

Well, yeah. It's really too easy for Infernal Charms to produce natural disasters and blight places, so any Charm that specifically deals with that field needs to come at it from somewhat more of an angle.

I mean, my Oramus set uses Omen Weather for his "archery" tree and there's a Permanent Charm there which produces intense omen weather whenever you flare your anima. It doesn't mean anything - it's just a way that Oramus indicates that the laws of Creation are purely arbitrary and that they could be different.
 
@EarthScorpion
Do you think a personalized version of (Yozi) Arts Externalized would be appropriate to go in your Titanic [X] [Y] Primordial 2.0 cascade?

Oh, and does Titanic Life Unending get beaten by all spirit-killers, or just GET-alikes?
 
Blargh.

Well, finally got around to cleaning up The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions and purging a bunch of the old junk Charms that were just terribly written (the old deprecated document has been copied out so if you really want manse-babies and the like, you can). Also, finally got Malfean "curing you with radiation" working to my satisfaction (for now, at least).

Currently skimming through the doc.

Question regarding Titanic Will Unquestionable. Should it have the Blasphemy keyword? I mean, the description says it sets off cataclysmic omen weather. That seems like the sort of thing that'd be noticeable in the Loom.


Also, Great Mother's Blessed Waters lists Essence in its prereqs when the rest of the mechanical language in it uses the Kerisgame hacks.
 
  • Abyssals: Like the Solars, but lamer and more limited.

Honestly, i think you are making a disservice to Abyssals here. The idea of Abyssals as black Solars can go die in a fire.

I am pretty sure you can make a more interesting Abyssal prophecy charm. Like, say, a way to see patterns in the mad glossolalia of the neverborn.
 
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Does the Compulsion not to help the Doomed from Doomed to Die need to be negated by spending WP per character per day, or does one payment per day cover it? And can a Compulsion-keyword defense be used instead of paying WP (it's self-inflicted, so keyword defense not working wouldn't actually be transperfect). Oh, and I assume that it can't prevent characters from following their Motivation/5-dot principles.
 
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