Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

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I'd argue that Medea is just as valid as Ayako in this circumstance because Medea most definitely knows the pain of being forced to make bad choices and face dire consequences due to circumstances beyond one's control.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Erien on Sep 13, 2024 at 11:34 AM, finished with 63 posts and 33 votes.
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Medea takes the lead!
 
Actually, now that I think about it...

[X] [Ayako]

Shirou's human. Rin was human. I think Ayako is the best equipped to help Shirou understand that.
 
[X] [Ayako]
I don't think she even knows yet that Rin is dead, either way this is more interesting than Medea trying to console him imo

Great chapter, ever since BB appeared things got really serious, not only because of the stakes but because the weight of our decisions as well.

Now im gonna rant a little:

First, about your warning at the end.
Look, Rin is one of my favourite characters from Fate, and i hate Shinji just as much as the next guy, but im not gonna pretend Rin didnt deserve to die here.
In this story, Rin did things just as bad as Shinji in canon, the difference is that Shinji is a bastard who does it while smiling and Rin is a lost child who does it while crying, BUT she still does it.
Just like Rin, Shinji is also "just a 17 years old boy" and yet i doubt you would do the same warning for people celebrating his death. Heck, its even implied in the franchise that Shinji would be a good person if not for Zouken influence.
So while i agree with your feelings, i had to point out the hypocrisy, both from you and other readers.

Second, one thing that i really dont get about you and the readers is the Mind of Steel thing.
How is Shirou killing Rin the same as him becoming Kiritsugu? He would not be doing it for the greater good, but to save Taiga, his sister. Shirou sacrificing someone to save someone he cares more about is more close to HF Shirou than something Kiritsugu would do.
In my opinion, we had the Mind of Steel choice and we avoided it already, being going after Cu Alter and letting Raiga deal with Rin/BB, in other words, saving more people instead of 1 person that we really care about.
 
LJ-Yusei said:
[X] [Ayako]

First, about your warning at the end.
Look, Rin is one of my favourite characters from Fate, and i hate Shinji just as much as the next guy, but im not gonna pretend Rin didnt deserve to die here.
In this story, Rin did things just as bad as Shinji in canon, the difference is that Shinji is a bastard who does it while smiling and Rin is a lost child who does it while crying, BUT she still does it.
Just like Rin, Shinji is also "just a 17 years old boy" and yet i doubt you would do the same warning for people celebrating his death. Heck, its even implied in the franchise that Shinji would be a good person if not for Zouken influence.
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The difference is that Shinji coming up, and his death were a surprise for the most part. I've had people with an inexplicable hate boner for Rin since before she had even done anything. She's normally a heroine. Also me just trying to keep the thread tame. It's not hypocrisy to try and keep shit sane. Especially with how... randy things had been at times.

LJ-Yusei said:
How is Shirou killing Rin the same as him becoming Kiritsugu?
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It isn't, but it can easily be a slipper slope.
 
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[X] [Medea]

I sincerely doubt that Ayako will be in any reasonable headspace to deal with one of her friends/associates being killed, especially since she was still adapting to the whole concept of the Grail War in the first place when we went charging after BB. Also, she's probably concussed.

Medea may not be the best person for consoling our Hero of Justice, but she does at least have personal experience with loss and eventually overcoming it.
 
Erien said:
To that end, what was Rin? Nothing, she was nothing to you. Someone you used to admire, but now… now that is gone.
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Shirou trying to get into the mind set he knows he'll need if it goes the way it might go...

Erien said:
Rin starts, you ignore her.
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It was then that Rin realized she was up shit creek

Erien said:
"Stupid, stupid Magus! So very egotistical!" BB lets go of Mordred's blade, and it crashes down onto her, cutting her in half from the right shoulder down, but she remains standing, motes of 'data' floating out of her as she grins with half a face at Fujimaru. "Oh, don't look like that master, it's just another Magus."
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..... Welp, on one hand Shirou didn't kill Rin. On the other she's still dead and Shirou is gonna take that... poorly.

Erien said:
Then you hear the clatter of metal, and you turn your head slightly to see Mordred staring down Rin's servant… the black swordswoman was caked in blood, dust, and drywall. She was also transparent, and rapidly becoming more transparent with each passing second. She turned her head to look at you, but whether your eyes met you can't say. That mask shows nothing, and it was the last thing to go before she was completely gone.
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.... No Arthur for Mordred to fight... welp those goes THAT source of catharsis for our mad welsh clone

Erien said:
It's not your fault. You had to save Taiga.

It's not your fault. You had to protect the people of this city.

It's not your fault, you didn't reach out to her earlier.
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Doesn't matter how much you say it Shirou if you don't believe yourself.

On the vote... I'm torn. On one hand Medea has seen her fair share of tragedy given she was you know IN A GREEK TRAGEDY... but Ayako knew Rin, and reaching out to Shirou know despite everything would show how much she does understand.

I'd like to see more Medea too... AAAAAAAAAH

WHY MUST I CHOOSE HE HAS TWO HANDS.

*flips a coin*

[X] [Ayako]
 
[X] [Ayako]

I am not happy. But that doesn't change the chapter was powerful, well written, and it was an entirely plausible outcome. It doesn't change that Rin is dead - and while she fucked up, yes, it doesn't change that she was a friend to both Ayako, Sakura and Shirou.

Grail Wars are horrid affairs, and I think you captured that wonderfully.
 
Swedish15 said:
[X] [Ayako]

I am not happy. But that doesn't change the chapter was powerful, well written, and it was an entirely plausible outcome. It doesn't change that Rin is dead - and while she fucked up, yes, it doesn't change that she was a friend to both Ayako, Sakura and Shirou.

Grail Wars are horrid affairs, and I think you captured that wonderfully.
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Thank you! Thank you very much!
 
 
 
Revlid said:
I'm just... very confused by BB's motivations here. She saw a Singularity or whatever we are that resembled the original Fuyuki War from which the Moon Cell templated her, so she wandered down to check it out, for curiosity's sake. Okay, she has access to those records anyway, but she's whimsical.

She rewrote her own Master-Servant contract to be tied to Rin as a source of mana, then got angry that Sakura was "boring", and outwardly more like her Nurse NPC origin than the rampant BB. Okay again, she's egotistical.

Here's where things get unclear for me. Instead of doing anything about the Sakura situation, she decides to screw with Rin, persuading her that Shirou blew up her house and getting her to go to Kotomine. This is less explicable, but can still be filed under "evil whimsy" and "temper tantrum". Then she decides to screw with Shirou under the excuse of still screwing with Rin, by kidnapping Taiga and extorting him to murder Rin (an act which, we later learn, will also cut off her mana source). This I really don't get, since Rin's at least her mana source and another template she's personally familiar with; she's got even less connection to Shirou than Rin. At this point she also seemingly hates and dismisses Fujimaru, which is pretty out of nowhere. Then when Rin threatens to cut off her mana she just... self-terminates by removing her own power source? Is she expecting Fujimaru to summon her back into Chaldea, after demonstrating that she'll ditch them as a Master and try to kill them on a whim?

This seems like suicide with extra steps, apparently motivated by boredom? I don't get it, and I'm hoping renewed contact with Chaldea gives some closure.
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My understanding of what B.B was doing and why is that she was implicitly sick of 'playing hero' as Fujimaru's Servant in Chaldea, possibly as an outgrowth of her own feeling about her A.I status meant to look after humanity despite having the not most positive feeling towards the species.

B.B came along for the Sauron Singularity because she was interested in seeing face to face the original person she was modeled after. Only she quickly came to the conclusion original flavour Sakura was boring and so decided now was the time to break bad, she dissolved her contract with Fujimaru so the Chaldea Master couldn't stop her - cut off In Singularity communication with Chaldea so Fujimaru can't end the fun little Grail War romp B.B was planning via reinforcements and established an alternative contract with Rin so she could flex her powers when needed.

She posed as just an AI assistant taking advantage of Rin's disconnect from modern technology, the fact that time travelling A.I Servant is an outside context problem Rin understandably didn't think she needed to be on the look out for and her own Servant powers to create a Contract without Rin's awareness.

Because Erien is drawing from the original Fate Extra characterisation of B.B ie deeply malicious to everyone not Hakuno and has loathes Rin as a core personality trait this contract resulted in not nice things for Rin.

Due to mana being unknowingly spent on B.B Rin has less magical power to throw around - is feeling the strain more and Saber was quite likely operating at a handicap - lower level from where she should be when contracted to Rin. This very quickly becomes a problem when Shirou draws Mordred from the Grail, because Mordred's legend is thematically tied up in killing a handicapped Saber and she proves her creditability by taking off Saber's arm in the first clash of the Grail War.

Already shaken by seeing her supposed to be unbeatable trump card Servant maimed, Rin is left further shaken and desperate when Mordred goes for a walk abridged Alucard style and demolishes Toksaka manor looking for a another fight with Saber. So Rin's place of safety, the home she has a lot of memories - emotional investment in is now gone along with a chunk of her resources, amping up desperation and leaving her pride stung.

B.B via projected dreams helps convince Rin that this incident was Shirou gunning for her specifically. And in Rin's Defense, X person's Servant attacking her home when a Grail War is on meaning X person is trying to take her out of the War isn't a huge jump. Hell given the Ayako stabbing incident Mordred very easily could have killed Rin in the crossfire and that would have been on Shirou for not controlling his berserk Servant.

With a nice emotional stew to work with and insider information about how badly this is likely to go B.B suggested to Rin's subconscious going to the Church for sanctuary. She didn't mind control Rin into doing this, she didn't need to.

Kirei being Kirei offered Rin a devils bargain of turbo charge Saber via Grail Mud bath, it's spelled out that Rin knew this was bad news and a horrible thing to do but her pride, drive to win the Grail War she had spent her life psyching herself up fight, and desire to hit back at her enemies all overrode her sense of ethics and she accepted this bargain of her own free will.

Rin unleashes Saber Alter on Shirou and co, only for an innocent bystander to be killed in the crossfire and Shirou his trauma triggered by this starts seriously considering killing Rin in response.

In Rin's favour she didn't set out to kill bystanders and was horrified by what happened in the aftermath. On the flip side Rin despite being confronted by the reality that Saber Alter was a bloodthirsty monster and that an innocent person was dead as a result of Rin's choices didn't do anything to stop this mess. She felt bad and cried but she was trying to rationalise this away and didn't Command Seal Saber Alter into killing herself - bow out of the Grail War.

As @Erien said Rin was dealt a bad hand but she chose to stay at the poker table - keep playing.

B.B decided that that her passion project of torment Rin had now reached it's end game, what with Rin stewing in a pit of regret and justification having by her own choice turned a person she could have in another life loved into a monster and completely burned her bridges with Shirou who is now psyching himself up to killing her if he has to.

B.B decides to prod a Rin - Shirou confrontation into happening so she flex's for the first time in the War and grabs Taiga while leaving Shirou think this was happening on Rin's orders, getting him all angry and primed to knife Rin in the process,

Shirou faces off against Rin, B.B whimsical and egoistical to a fault can't resist taking control of the situation and gloating about how it was her all along, she's been pulling the strings - look at how smart she is etc and now Shirou should kill Rin at her say so in exchange for Taiga.

Que the events of the last chapter.

As for what B.B expects to happen after this, well if the various lostbelt - special events are canon for this stories Chaldea then "one of Fujimaru's Servant's went rogue and started shit inside a Singularity then are forgiven" is a weekly occurrence so B.B thinking she can do this and not get executed might have some grounding in reality.

Alternatively by 'going back' she doesn't mean she's returning to Chaldea proper so much as jumping back to Chaldea then using their technology to reenter her home turf of the Moon Cell.
 
toxinvictory said:
My understanding of what B.B was doing and why is that she was implicitly sick of 'playing hero' as Fujimaru's Servant in Chaldea, possibly as an outgrowth of her own feeling about her A.I status meant to look after humanity despite having the not most positive feeling towards the species.

B.B came along for the Sauron Singularity because she was interested in seeing face to face the original person she was modeled after. Only she quickly came to the conclusion original flavour Sakura was boring and so decided now was the time to break bad, she dissolved her contract with Fujimaru so the Chaldea Master couldn't stop her - cut off In Singularity communication with Chaldea so Fujimaru can't end the fun little Grail War romp B.B was planning via reinforcements and established an alternative contract with Rin so she could flex her powers when needed.

She posed as just an AI assistant taking advantage of Rin's disconnect from modern technology, the fact that time travelling A.I Servant is an outside context problem Rin understandably didn't think she needed to be on the look out for and her own Servant powers to create a Contract without Rin's awareness.

Because Erien is drawing from the original Fate Extra characterisation of B.B ie deeply malicious to everyone not Hakuno and has loathes Rin as a core personality trait this contract resulted in not nice things for Rin.

Due to mana being unknowingly spent on B.B Rin has less magical power to throw around - is feeling the strain more and Saber was quite likely operating at a handicap - lower level from where she should be when contracted to Rin. This very quickly becomes a problem when Shirou draws Mordred from the Grail, because Mordred's legend is thematically tied up in killing a handicapped Saber and she proves her creditability by taking off Saber's arm in the first clash of the Grail War.

Already shaken by seeing her supposed to be unbeatable trump card Servant maimed, Rin is left further shaken and desperate when Mordred goes for a walk abridged Alucard style and demolishes Toksaka manor looking for a another fight with Saber. So Rin's place of safety, the home she has a lot of memories - emotional investment in is now gone along with a chunk of her resources, amping up desperation and leaving her pride stung.

B.B via projected dreams helps convince Rin that this incident was Shirou gunning for her specifically. And in Rin's Defense, X person's Servant attacking her home when a Grail War is on meaning X person is trying to take her out of the War isn't a huge jump. Hell given the Ayako stabbing incident Mordred very easily could have killed Rin in the crossfire and that would have been on Shirou for not controlling his berserk Servant.

With a nice emotional stew to work with and insider information about how badly this is likely to go B.B suggested to Rin's subconscious going to the Church for sanctuary. She didn't mind control Rin into doing this, she didn't need to.

Kirei being Kirei offered Rin a devils bargain of turbo charge Saber via Grail Mud bath, it's spelled out that Rin knew this was bad news and a horrible thing to do but her pride, drive to win the Grail War she had spent her life psyching herself up fight, and desire to hit back at her enemies all overrode her sense of ethics and she accepted this bargain of her own free will.

Rin unleashes Saber Alter on Shirou and co, only for an innocent bystander to be killed in the crossfire and Shirou his trauma triggered by this starts seriously considering killing Rin in response.

In Rin's favour she didn't set out to kill bystanders and was horrified by what happened in the aftermath. On the flip side Rin despite being confronted by the reality that Saber Alter was a bloodthirsty monster and that an innocent person was dead as a result of Rin's choices didn't do anything to stop this mess. She felt bad and cried but she was trying to rationalise this away and didn't Command Seal Saber Alter into killing herself - bow out of the Grail War.

As @Erien said Rin was dealt a bad hand but she chose to stay at the poker table - keep playing.

B.B decided that that her passion project of torment Rin had now reached it's end game, what with Rin stewing in a pit of regret and justification having by her own choice turned a person she could have in another life loved into a monster and completely burned her bridges with Shirou who is now psyching himself up to killing her if he has to.

B.B decides to prod a Rin - Shirou confrontation into happening so she flex's for the first time in the War and grabs Taiga while leaving Shirou think this was happening on Rin's orders, getting him all angry and primed to knife Rin in the process,

Shirou faces off against Rin, B.B whimsical and egoistical to a fault can't resist taking control of the situation and gloating about how it was her all along, she's been pulling the strings - look at how smart she is etc and now Shirou should kill Rin at her say so in exchange for Taiga.

Que the events of the last chapter.

As for what B.B expects to happen after this, well if the various lostbelt - special events are canon for this stories Chaldea then "one of Fujimaru's Servant's went rogue and started shit inside a Singularity then are forgiven" is a weekly occurrence so B.B thinking she can do this and not get executed might have some grounding in reality.

Alternatively by 'going back' she doesn't mean she's returning to Chaldea proper so much as jumping back to Chaldea then using their technology to reenter her home turf of the Moon Cell.
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Very good writeup thank you! I fear people thought BB was a meme.
 
[X] [Medea]

God dammit this is a tough one for me, but Medea has been getting benched in interactions too much.
 
toxinvictory said:
As for what B.B expects to happen after this, well if the various lostbelt - special events are canon for this stories Chaldea then "one of Fujimaru's Servant's went rogue and started shit inside a Singularity then are forgiven" is a weekly occurrence so B.B thinking she can do this and not get executed might have some grounding in reality.
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But this isn't a singularity, I think. Plus, I don't really know what goes on in special events, but this feels like a next level of dickishness than usual for fujimaru to tolerate.

There's being silly, and then there's (Waving hands around shirou) that.

If we get an interlude of B.B getting her shit rocked back at Chaldea, I will cry tears of joy
 
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