Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

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Erien said:
I take it people enjoyed the revelations then? Been a long time coming.
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Oh, I got a big 'ole grin at BB revealing she's been pulling a Charlie for spite and giggles.
LJ-Yusei said:
but the fact that she was completely aware of what she was doing with Saber is new information for me
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According to BB. Who intentionally set Rin up with the priest who backstabbed her father and manipulated Rin ever since the last Grail War. The priest who controls the Greater Grail and its Grail Mud.

There is such a thing as "unreliable narrator".
 
[X] Command seal to summon Mordred
-[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are

I really don't think BB is Rin's servant; Rin would have noticed gaining extra command seals for her, and the fact that she seemingly didn't speaks to me that they aren't there.
 
chellewalker said:
[X] Command seal to summon Mordred
-[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are

I really don't think BB is Rin's servant; Rin would have noticed gaining extra command seals for her, and the fact that she seemingly didn't speaks to me that they aren't there.
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Wait does Shirou have two sets of command seals I thought he only had one and when he used a command on one of them it faded a little bit and then finished fading if he used another on the other servant because command seals are transferable between servants meaning if you had two sets you would have a six command seals not three for individual servants.
 
[] Command seal to summon Mordred before Medea

I Made this add on that seeks to ensure Mordred appears where she can fight Salter

Because if she appears next to Shirou Is useless to our dilema with Rin, wouldn't be very effective against BB, and at worst could turn to us if her Father IFF gets broken again
 
Degorium said:
Wait does Shirou have two sets of command seals I thought he only had one and when he used a command on one of them it faded a little bit and then finished fading if he used another on the other servant because command seals are transferable between servants meaning if you had two sets you would have a six command seals not three for individual servants.
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We apparently have 2 command seals left for Mordred and 2 left for Medea, each being counted separately. If Rin didn't know BB was a Servant, then either she has the extra seals and just didn't know who they're for (which I find very unlikely; at some point she would have used one just to summon the Servant to herself I would think), or she doesn't have the 2nd set of command seals, meaning BB isn't her Servant.
 
Degorium said:
Wait does Shirou have two sets of command seals I thought he only had one and when he used a command on one of them it faded a little bit and then finished fading if he used another on the other servant because command seals are transferable between servants meaning if you had two sets you would have a six command seals not three for individual servants.
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Shirou has two sets of command seals yes. It's been mentioned more than once.
 
Degorium said:
One thing I don't understand about the kill Rin stance in general is what good can possibly come of listening to the unambiguously evil Servant who literally just admitted to spurring Rin to do most of what she did. Rin might not have had a problem with it but the paranoia and who she went to are completely BB's fault why would we want to listen to her or believe anything she has to say. She literally turned Taiga's body into a puppet and has it hanging by a noose. Goddamn near gloating that she can make Shirou do whatever she wants by tugging at his strings. She literally admitted that she's only trying to kill Rin because she got bored of her and has some level of fondness or Amusement with us why would you give back Taiga if she's not forced to? Rather than jerking us around some more.
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I know it feels horrible to let BB boss us around and just hope she sticks with her word. But the way i see things, its still the best option to save Taiga.
To me you guys are trying to look for a good solution when we dont have one. I truly believe that if the author dont plot armor our way out of this, any action that displeases BB will result on Taiga dying. Im not looking at this situation with the knowledge that we are the MC and there should be a way, im looking at this with the knowledge that, while BB has Taiga, we are her bitch. Of course there is a line, if she dont follow her words or if for example she told us to kill Fujimaru instead, then we would have to risk Taiga life to not kill an innocent.
But until that happens, believing BB will mantain her word is our best option to save our sister.
Always Late said:
Oh, I got a big 'ole grin at BB revealing she's been pulling a Charlie for spite and giggles.

According to BB. Who intentionally set Rin up with the priest who backstabbed her father and manipulated Rin ever since the last Grail War. The priest who controls the Greater Grail and its Grail Mud.

There is such a thing as "unreliable narrator".
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Eh, i believe BB on that. It looked less that she was telling us a secret and more that she was mocking/making Rin feel guilty. I dont believe that she did it without hesitation but that she did know what would happen i think its true. That Rin didnt say anything about that doesnt help her case as well.
I do agree that i could be wrong and maybe Rin didnt know, but then to me its her fault for having too bad a historic for me to give her the benefit of doubt.
 
LJ-Yusei said:
I know it feels horrible to let BB boss us around and just hope she sticks with her word. But the way i see things, its still the best option to save Taiga.
To me you guys are trying to look for a good solution when we dont have one. I truly believe that if the author dont plot armor our way out of this, any action that displeases BB will result on Taiga dying. Im not looking at this situation with the knowledge that we are the MC and there should be a way, im looking at this with the knowledge that, while BB has Taiga, we are her bitch. Of course there is a line, if she dont follow her words or if for example she told us to kill Fujimaru instead, then we would have to risk Taiga life to not kill an innocent.
But until that happens, believing BB will mantain her word is our best option to save our sister.
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Okay that is a way to look at it and I do actually understand that but from my perspective and this is just as another person BB just appears to be a bully who breaks her toys when she's done with them. Nothing about any of the behavior she's exhibited seems to suggest in any way that she will actually give tiger back she put Sakura in a coma and then jerked us around and now wants to kill the person she was previously jerking around after admitting that she's essentially been hypnotizing her and manipulating her dreams for the last however many days this war has gone on. Nothing at all seems to suggest killing rain will actually save Taiga it just says it will prolong her life longer which is good but it gets us no closer and actively kind of removes someone that might help us get her back.
 
[Refuse}

Seems too much like a mind of steel ending for me, plus Rin obviously feels guilty about what has been going on, and redemption is still possible for her.
 
Okay approval voting I still believe that there's textual evidence and monologuing evidence that somehow BB is connected enough to Rin that she can manipulate her dreams and generally possibly her memories considering she didn't remember who BB was for a second there. As well as the fact that dancing to her tune will get you killed when you stop being interesting. She had Rin enthralled apparently from start to finish dancing to her tune and now she's bored and wants to kill her and wants us the newest source of amusement to do it yeah. Never mind the fact that Rin both isn't in a position to fight and has a powerful servant that might come in handy later if we can get her on our side. Considering Sauron is still kind of running about.

[X] Look up at BB then look back to Rin walk up to Rin and lean to her ear.
-[X] Tell Rin to use her Command seals to get BB to return Taiga from she took her from whole and unharmed.

[X] [Refuse]

[X] Command seal to summon Mordred
-[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are
 
Ferb_Ancos said:
BB was never Rin's Servant. She is a stowaway from Chaldea. She came with Fujimaru. That was what I understood.
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She's linked to something and it doesn't appear to be Fujimura anymore. She still refers to her as master but she's getting her magic energy from somewhere and it makes sense that she would stowaway on a botched summoning in a fucked up ritual that allows her to kind of just hitch a ride she may have followed Fujimaru here but Fujimaru shows no signs of being able to command her and she's hung around Rin too long for it to be a coincidence at very least in my mind but that's like a meta-analysis. I can't think of an in-story reason why she wouldn't be Rin's servant that's blatantly fucking with her mind.
 
So I don't really wanna kill Rin, but unfortunately for her it has nothing to do with her actions. First reason is Ayako, who understandably doesn't want to let her friend die.

Second is that we've basically determined that BB's word is worthless. Not because she won't give Taiga back, in fact I'm very sure she'll hold up her end of the bargain. But I think we have enough circumstantial evidence to indicate BB is but a pawn herself. Saber is still outside and BB is feeling confident Fujimaru can't just Command Seal her into the ground. I think she's gotten a different kinda contract. I doubt she had the power to drag people to cyberspace like this before, or else she would've done something to Rin earlier. Someone is juicing her up.

Basically, she only has power so long as this other party offers it, and when she let's Shirou out for killing Rin, that person is still there, likely is ready to take control of Saber, and will make the whole situation much worse for us.

Basically, it's best for us to keep Rin alive so she keeps control of Saber, at least until whoever it is tries another plan.

Which is a shame, because I don't know how to keep BB from just deleting Taiga if we don't go along with this. Like beating people up almost always works in this genre, but I genuinely don't know how summoning Mordred here is supposed to help. Maybe if we had a way to call Medea and Circe in here they could figure something out, but that's basically a hope and a prayer.
 
Considering all the manipulation shit BB has done I think this is how Annatar would view BB if they ever met

That or have her be like his adopted evil daughter he will instruct in the ways of evil. Like how Melkior did for him
 
Voting seems more slanted at the moment, but if I could make an argument for [Refuse]:
Think of what Shirou would do (this is not about tactics)
1) Going along with what BB says has only put him and his loved ones in a worse position. BB's options are just lose-lose-lose. Regardless of what we think, I'm not sure Shirou can trust what she says. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me yadda yadda.
2) Shirou's gut reaction is no longer on the "kill Rin" plan.
Erien said:
For a brief moment you nearly reached out to her, to ask her what was wrong, but your purpose takes over.
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This is a stark contrast to the previous chapter.
Erien said:
"Shi… Shirou, is he about to kill Rin?" Ayako asks slowly.

"Yes." You reply curtly.

"You can't let him do tha-"

"And why can't I?" you ask, snapping your head to Ayako.
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Like, just from looking at her, Shirou doesn't want to kill Rin. After that he only gets more excuses that she can be saved
Erien said:
"In case what?" Rin asks, crossing her arms. "I'm not going to just… attack you."
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From her cluelessness about the current situation, her regret, and her unwillingness to fight to his girlfriend's words reaching him, I don't think Shirou would actively kill someone like that, even if they had severely fucked up. This is the kind of situation he rejects.

Like, I still think it's unlikely Rin can make it out of this alive, but I don't think it should be by Shirou's hands, not in this moment at least. Especially with how Rin is kind of starting to mirror Caster's backstory a bit, misled by a goddess into becoming a witch at the end of a bloody road, full of pain and regret. Rin definitely has more agency than Caster did, but I feel like the comparison was worth bringing up considering who our leading lady is. What does it thematically mean for Shirou to give in to this Goddess's whims knowing the woman who means the most to him in this story.

I'm not fully convinced on the summon Mordred plan. That will certainly help with Salter, but with BB? So I think I must
[X] [Refuse]

Erien said:
I take it people enjoyed the revelations then? Been a long time coming.
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Waking up to seeing 4 pages of thread after the latest chapter was very telling, it's only been half a day. You did a good job, mate. This makes excellent sense for what Rin has done and how she was able to justify doing it. I don't mind being tricked by BB a little, it's fun c:
P hyped for how this'll turn out.
 
GalacticPeanuts said:
Waking up to seeing 4 pages of thread after the latest chapter was very telling, it's only been half a day. You did a good job, mate. This makes excellent sense for what Rin has done and how she was able to justify doing it. I don't mind being tricked by BB a little, it's fun c:
P hyped for how this'll turn out.
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Thank you!
 
Betrayal, more like BBetrayal.

I'll see myself out.

Not really sure how to vote if I'm being honest. Kinda also wondering what's going on with BB here. She's cruel, usually by her own admission, but the stuff she does usually has a greater scope purpose or ends up being helpful in some roundabout way. Not really seeing a probability of that this time unless I'm just missing something.

I guess based on how I'm feeling, my vote is [X] [Refuse]

BB is a lot of things. Trustworthy isn't one of them. There's nothing stopping her from killing Taiga then Shirou even if Shirou kills Rin.
 
Grahf said:
Betrayal, more like BBetrayal.

I'll see myself out.

Not really sure how to vote if I'm being honest. Kinda also wondering what's going on with BB here. She's cruel, usually by her own admission, but the stuff she does usually has a greater scope purpose or ends up being helpful in some roundabout way. Not really seeing a probability of that this time unless I'm just missing something.

I guess based on how I'm feeling, my vote is [X] [Refuse]

BB is a lot of things. Trustworthy isn't one of them. There's nothing stopping her from killing Taiga then Shirou even if Shirou kills Rin.
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Sorry if I made voting difficult for this one.
 
Degorium said:
I do feel the need to say that Rin is not a terrorist I'm not even really a Rin fan or even shipper but Bebe literally just admitted to hypnotizing her essentially into going to the fake priest in the first place.
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Okay, I'll happily argue the toss on questions of responsibility, but we see Rin's thought process in going to Kirei laid out very clearly in the "Rin's Deal" sidestory. BB might have suggested Rin ask Kirei for lodging (as opposed to sanctuary), but her own logic for doing so was fully coherent and internal. It was her decision to go to Kirei, and entirely her decision to dunk Saber into the Grail Mud for a power-up, and to unleash the destruction and death that followed.

Rin was motivated by fear, mistrust, panic, and a desire not to lose the Grail War that she regards as her family's birthright. These are understandable motives, which drove her to do some frankly unforgiveable things. Please don't try to brush that under the rug by exaggerating to the point of claiming she was mind controlled into doing all of it. She wasn't. BB might have laid out the red carpet, but Rin power walked down that slippery slope of her own volition.

The fact that she's mad about it doesn't change that! Or the fact that our sister is literally dangling on the end of a noose right now, with our Servants under an executioner's blade, and I am not about to choose the life of someone we came here prepared to kill for the shit she did (and has still done!) over them.
 
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