Crystalwatcher's Magical Girl Quest!

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

LostDeviljho said:
I meant more actual literal weapons rather than "weapons" like that. Most people do not survive the process of being turned into a sword or whatever.

Also, on this note, one would also have to include all the others that would get sacrificed in the process of turning someone into a weapon.

From the victim's point of view, it's functionally having a bunch of people's spectral heads chopped off, fused to their body, and then used to beat someone else over the head. No one comes out of it sane, intact if they're lucky. Otherwise if the process is reversed you're more than likely going to get a vegetative corpse back than the victim.

ReaperofInterest · Dec 7, 2017

Hmm. Interesting. Although while you're answering questions crys, you never did answer my questions about how more general Slayer Abilities interact with defensive Abilities, compared to more specific Slayer Abilities.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

ReaperofInterest said:
Hmm. Interesting. Although while you're answering questions crys, you never did answer my questions about how more general Slayer Abilities interact with defensive Abilities, compared to more specific Slayer Abilities.

General Slayer Abilities tend to lack the required power/metaphysical weight in order to effect abilities. For example Magical Girl Slayer wouldn't cut through San's Armor of the Time Lord while Timeslayer does. While General Slayer Abilities tend to see far more use, they tend to be far less effective in your described situation.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

And while I'm dishing out data, have some Lucky:

Lucky's Library: Mechanical Abilities vs Conceptual Abilities
(Or: How Human Magic Keeps Making Shit More Complicated Then It Needs to Be)

Lucky:
"Hey everyone, it's your favorite Fairy team member here! Today I'm going to be talking to you all about the differences between Abilities that are just Mechanical in nature and Abilities are are backed by a Conceptual Component!"

Solar Radiance:
"And I'm here to help as an example between the two."

[Lucky yelps, diving behind her podium in sudden fright.]

"... Why do you cower like that whenever a Magical Girl appears? Hasn't that narrative joke gone a little too far?"

Lucky:
"It's not a narrative joke. I have a phobia of Magical Girls from what Armageddon Hound did to my family. It's a real problem, with real consequences that I have to actually deal with, with real parallels in real life. I know intellectually that most Magical Girls are weaker than me in some way now, but it's not something that's going to go away with a short talk and a hug. Anastasia has been good on trying not to trigger it in me, but even she can only do so much... can we get back on topic please? I want to get this over with as quickly as possible."

Solar:
"I will not object to that. Lunar is expecting me back with the salad soon."

Lucky:
"Alrighty. To begin with, the Questers are very unlikely to run into Conceptual Abilities when fighting anything other than another Magical Girl, for the simple fact that before Humanity came onto the scene, Conceptual Abilities were very rare. With Heaven and Hell being probably the only groups to have any significant concentration of them in the Unified Darkness and Unified Light. The main reason for this being, that the common view of Magic is actually rather simplistic. And when Humanity accidentally tailored their Magic to function similar to the magic from that one Anime, Fate Stay/Night-"

Solar:
"Visual Novel."

Lucky:
"Huh?"

Solar:
"It originally started as a Visual Novel. A kind of animated booklet that is also a game. But it wasn't the first of the setting."

Lucky:
"... Huh. Well, The More You Know! Anyway, the Visual Novel, Fate Stay/Night. Humanity moved their magic into an otherwise unknown field of effects than everyone in the LDC was used to. When using their magic, a Human Practitioner (like Samael for instance) uses their inborn magical energy is connect to something called a Foundation. And from there, uses their Energy as a sort of fuel-slash-bargaining chip in order to buy off an effect from reality. This makes what the rest of the Local Dimensional Cluster see as easy spells somewhat inefficient for a Human Mage. But in turn, gives them the ability to utilize Magics that the rest of the LDC would require some form of Grand Ritual or Epic Event to pull off."

Solar:
"Epic Event?"

Lucky:
"Epic Events are major natural phenomenon that hold major significance for the surrounding area. Whenever they happen, they release truly staggering amounts of mana that can then be used for any number of things. Most common being the Elf Empire opening another Super Gate."

Solar:
"... You're telling me... The Elves create their Super Gates by ritually mugging Nature for the magic energy released during a volcanic eruption?"

Lucky:
"Yup."

[Solar Radiance's face goes blank as her thought process completely derails.]

"Though those are outliers. Most the time they suck in magic energy from something like a hurricane instead and use that. Though it's a lot less energy released depending on the eruption taking place."

Solar:
"You have any idea what a Human Mage could do with that kind of power?"

Lucky:
"Yes, actually. Considering the average Human DGate usually takes nothing more than a couple of idiots in pointy hats a few minutes of chanting and a few rare rocks to open? It's something that most the LDC doesn't like thinking about too much. But anyway, we've digressed like hell. What this all more or less means, is that a good number of Magical Girl abilities are actually Conceptual in nature.

"Common or simple names, such as Men Kill Heroes, or Mandate, are purely mechanical abilities. Meaning they operate on an otherwise mundane level to give a mundane effect. Most the time this is pretty straight forward and easy to follow. It's when the Conceptual Abilities started showing up that things get confusing. Using Solar Radiance here as an example, with her Insurmountable Perfection."

Solar:
"Most Conceptual Abilities are difficult to identify, but there are two common things that run in them. The first is being some form of grandiose title, like my Perfection, and another being something weird with the Ability Name itself. Again like my Perfection. The more grandiose or the stranger the name. The more likely it is to be a Conceptual ability."

Lucky:
"Correct. When it comes down to it, a Conceptual Ability will always trump a Mechanical Ability. An easy way to tell what such an ability is immune to is nominally found in the way the ability's name is presented. For example, Solar Radiance's Insurmountable Perfection quite clearly states that its... well... Insurmountable. This gives it a level of defense against abilities that would otherwise negate it, or render it unusable. Since, in some way, it'd require that other ability to overcome it."

Solar:
"And, as the name suggests, it's inherently insurmountable. Or impossible to overcome."

Lucky:
"Exactly. This, in turn, enters into how Conceptual Combat works in this setting. Which is that it's possible to turn every concept aside in some form or another by using another Concept. And that creates a hierarchy. In Conceptual Battle, the more broad a Concept is, the less power that Concept can focus. Such as the idea of 'battle'. The trick that isn't pointed out though, is that if a Concept is a Root Concept, such as 'Conflict', which many more Concept are derived from, their power is exponentially greater than what it should otherwise be."

Solar:
"A good example of this is Cosmos and Void."

Lucky:
"Right, Cosmos is the originator of the idea called 'Reality', or 'Existence'. Nominally, this broadness would render her virtually powerless due to how much it covers. But that is negated by the simple fact that by simply existing, we're giving power to the idea of 'Reality'. Since in order for us to do anything, we must exist in the first place."

Solar:
"Meaning, that any Concept that requires one to exist in order to actualize gives Cosmos their power."

Lucky:
"And the inverse for Void. Which makes it even worse, when one considers the fact for something to 'not exist' you must know what 'existence' is in the first place. To have one, you need the other to give it definition."

Solar:
"Which is the core of their power. So long as the idea 'to exist' is around, you must also consider the idea 'to not exist'. And to consider the idea 'to not exist' you must know what it means 'to exist'."

Lucky:
"To kill one, you have to kill the other at the same time. Otherwise you'll never get anywhere while fighting them... did we digress again?"

Solar:
"What this all means on the 'ground level' is that the more 'primordial' a concept is, the more power it has to throw around. Regardless of how weakened it is."

Lucky:
"Which, in conceptual battle, means it takes that much more disproportionate power to overcome."

Solar:
"Much like Little-Sister-Gear's INDESTRUCTIBLE CORE."

Lucky:
"Yup. In a way, it draws power from one of the most primordial of concepts, [PEACE]. The name itself is actually both fairly accurate as well as horribly inaccurate at the same time. It would be easier to call it the idea of 'to exist in a state without conflict'. Which, thanks to modern mortal parlance, is 'Peace'."

Solar:
"Hmm... I need to go. I want to return to Lunar before this salad dries out."

Lucky:
"Uh... alright. Have a safe trip."

[Solar Radiance departs.]

"Anyway... I think that's everything. If there's any questions I'll still be here for a while."

Samael:
"Actually, I have a question."

Lucky:
"Shoot."

Sam:
"Earlier you said that when a Human Mage uses a spell, they connect to a 'Foundation' in order to cast it, right? Doesn't that invalidate pretty much everything we know about how Magic works through a Species' belief?"

Lucky:
"This all actually ties into that. Thanks to all the predisposition Humanity had (and sill has) on magic when theirs was still forming, it came out really complicated before cementing itself.

"The best way to describe how a Human casts a spell would be to "Construct a Building that is The Spell". When a Human Mage first casts their spell, they use the energy to connect to a preexisting 'Foundation', normally represented as the caster's understanding of the world, and then uses their energy to bargain/buy off reality into making the final house for them as per their own design.

"It makes spells easier to cast with repetition since the original framework is still there, but it also allows them to pull some really weird shit. Like their Doorway analogy to dimensional travel."

Sam:
"That makes sense. Thank you."

Tylonius · Dec 7, 2017

Now I want the Battle for Hope to open with some sort of Volcano powered human super-spell.

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
General Slayer Abilities tend to lack the required power/metaphysical weight in order to effect abilities. For example Magical Girl Slayer wouldn't cut through San's Armor of the Time Lord while Timeslayer does. While General Slayer Abilities tend to see far more use, they tend to be far less effective in your described situation.

Crystalwatcher said:
The trick that isn't pointed out though, is that if a Concept is a Root Concept, such as 'Conflict', which many more Concept are derived from, their power is exponentially greater than what it should otherwise be."

What would be the interaction if someone had a specialized Slayer ability that targeted a specific affinity, as well as all the affinities that have the targeted one as their Root?

For instance, one that primarily targeted Metal, but also affected Steel and Iron.

Crystalwatcher said:
When it comes down to it, a Conceptual Ability will always trump a Mechanical Ability.

Is Overwhelming Presence Mechanical or Conceptual?

Aetharian · Dec 7, 2017

Tylonius said:
Now I want the Battle for Hope to open with some sort of Volcano powered human super-spell.

Remember that we want Hope to continue to exist afterwards

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Oh, one other question.

Despite having the same effect (despite different wording) and one being obtained due to the other's influence, would it be correct to assume from their names that Goddess Gold's "Divine Right" is Mechanical but Nepgear's "Calamity Circuit" is Conceptual?

At the very least, I think it's safe to assume that any ability that directly references that Calamity in its name is Conceptual.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

justinkal said:
What would be the interaction if someone had a specialized Slayer ability that targeted a specific affinity, as well as all the affinities that have the targeted one as their Root?

For instance, one that primarily targeted Metal, but also affected Steel and Iron.

Not exactly sure what you're asking.

justinkal said:
Is Overwhelming Presence Mechanical or Conceptual?

Conceptual.

justinkal said:
Oh, one other question.

Despite having the same effect (despite different wording) and one being obtained due to the other's influence, would it be correct to assume from their names that Goddess Gold's "Divine Right" is Mechanical but Nepgear's "Calamity Circuit" is Conceptual?

At the very least, I think it's safe to assume that any ability that directly references that Calamity in its name is Conceptual.

They're both conceptual actually.

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Not exactly sure what you're asking.

The interaction between Slayer abilities becoming weaker when they are more broad and the reason for it being broad being that it targets a Root concept.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

justinkal said:
The interaction between Slayer abilities becoming weaker when they are more broad and the reason for it being broad being that it targets a Root concept.

Oh.

Root Concepts are resistant to Slayer Effects below a certain threshold. This comes out to Slater Effects not propagating down Root lines. Once you start hitting Starstream Tier Entities or Conceptual Schizo-Entities is when that matters. (Otherwise Timeslayer would be hitting a lot of shit.)

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Oh.

Root Concepts are resistant to Slayer Effects below a certain threshold. This comes out to Slater Effects not propagating down Root lines. Once you start hitting Starstream Tier Entities or Conceptual Schizo-Entities is when that matters. (Otherwise Timeslayer would be hitting a lot of shit.)

So no Slayer abilities for low tier Roots (stuff that's still a Root, but is far weaker than primordial concepts)?

That's what I meant in the question. Stuff like treating Metal as a low tier Root with things like Steel as its derivatives.

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
Using Iron Age over in @kelllogo's quest as an example, with how she was turned into a spear, you can't turn them into just any kind of weapon. For example, you can't turn a random magical serial killer into a gattling gun for example. The weapon you're turning them into has to be something that 'fits' their existence. Like Iron Age and being turned into a Spear.

Using the Random Serial Killer again, the best you could likely hope for would be his most common murder weapon. If they tried turning Anastasia into a weapon, it'd come out as a sword. Same with Sega and Rei. Doing this to someone creates a cursed existence in the form of that weapon, that while far stronger, and likely to carry non-standard and incredible abilities, requires the unwilling sacrifice of the person in question as well as a lengthy ritual with a lot of other living sacrifices during it.

What if there was a Maker MG with a spell along these lines?

Reforge
Level 1
Base Damage: something
Magic Modifier: something
Affinity: Life | Recreation
Ability: Instant Manufacture

A spell that operates off the premise of individual mortals being fragments of divine weapons, and thus makes anyone who would get killed by the spell instead get reforged into a mortal scale weapon.

Would that kind of hax be kosher?

Phant0m5 · Dec 7, 2017

... would it be possible, within the scope of this quest, to find some other faction that also operates their magic weirdly? Or that also has advanced or at least modern-ish technology? After this last info chapter, I'm getting quite sick of the "humanity is special" stuff.

I mean, I get why that happened, and I get that it was a huge fluke that had nothing to do with us specifically. But the fact that we're responsible for most of the Unified Light's esoteric weirdness AND being the most technologically advanced faction to devastating effect, AND hold a key choke point on Earth?

The HFY is making me kind of barfy and I'm just not having as much fun reading this as when I first found it. We don't have to be underdogs, but this is just too much!

justinkal · Dec 7, 2017

Phant0m5 said:
The HFY is making me kind of barfy and I'm just not having as much fun reading this as when I first found it. We don't have to be underdogs, but this is just too much!

Just remember that all the "Humanity, Fuck Yeah" stuff here is equally "What The Fuck, Humanity?".

Don't forget that humans also have way more capacity to be evil assholes than members of other Unified Light aligned races, as evidenced by people like Magical Girl Sixth Heaven.

jaiveer00 · Dec 7, 2017

if the elves learned to convert the energy from a volcano into a super gate, could they do the same with the energy from a nuke? or would it not work because its not the volcano itself's magic that they use but the act of the volcano erupting releasing a burst of magic? that brings the question of where that magic comes from which is probably the planet. unless the act of detonating a nuke releases magic as well...

Gore17 · Dec 7, 2017

Phant0m5 said:
... would it be possible, within the scope of this quest, to find some other faction that also operates their magic weirdly? Or that also has advanced or at least modern-ish technology? After this last info chapter, I'm getting quite sick of the "humanity is special" stuff.

I mean, I get why that happened, and I get that it was a huge fluke that had nothing to do with us specifically. But the fact that we're responsible for most of the Unified Light's esoteric weirdness AND being the most technologically advanced faction to devastating effect, AND hold a key choke point on Earth?

The HFY is making me kind of barfy and I'm just not having as much fun reading this as when I first found it. We don't have to be underdogs, but this is just too much!

*pats on the back* Trust me, you're not alone in disliking the "HFY!" stuff, though @Crystalwatcher is unfortunately a fan, though trying to keep it minimised.

Though it should be mentioned that humanity is not the most technologically advanced faction, just the most advanced faction involved in the war.

jaiveer00 said:
if the elves learned to convert the energy from a volcano into a super gate, could they do the same with the energy from a nuke? or would it not work because its not the volcano itself's magic that they use but the act of the volcano erupting releasing a burst of magic? that brings the question of where that magic comes from which is probably the planet. unless the act of detonating a nuke releases magic as well...

Modern nukes do, in fact, make use of that technique.

LostDeviljho · Dec 7, 2017

Phant0m5 said:
... would it be possible, within the scope of this quest, to find some other faction that also operates their magic weirdly? Or that also has advanced or at least modern-ish technology? After this last info chapter, I'm getting quite sick of the "humanity is special" stuff.

I mean, I get why that happened, and I get that it was a huge fluke that had nothing to do with us specifically. But the fact that we're responsible for most of the Unified Light's esoteric weirdness AND being the most technologically advanced faction to devastating effect, AND hold a key choke point on Earth?

The HFY is making me kind of barfy and I'm just not having as much fun reading this as when I first found it. We don't have to be underdogs, but this is just too much!

Honestly a lot of this stuff was established in the first few chapters, man. All the infodump did was give a proper explanation to stuff mentioned somewhat in passing.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

justinkal said:
So no Slayer abilities for low tier Roots (stuff that's still a Root, but is far weaker than primordial concepts)?

That's what I meant in the question. Stuff like treating Metal as a low tier Root with things like Steel as its derivatives.

Yeah, that wouldn't work. Mostly because the low tier simply doesn't have the kind of range needed to start effecting that.

justinkal said:
What if there was a Maker MG with a spell along these lines?

Reforge
Level 1
Base Damage: something
Magic Modifier: something
Affinity: Life | Recreation
Ability: Instant Manufacture

A spell that operates off the premise of individual mortals being fragments of divine weapons, and thus makes anyone who would get killed by the spell instead get reforged into a mortal scale weapon.

Would that kind of hax be kosher?

If you wanted to put the target through an "And I must Scream" scenario? Sure. It'd also still require several more sacrifices on the side as well.

Phant0m5 said:
... would it be possible, within the scope of this quest, to find some other faction that also operates their magic weirdly? Or that also has advanced or at least modern-ish technology? After this last info chapter, I'm getting quite sick of the "humanity is special" stuff.

I mean, I get why that happened, and I get that it was a huge fluke that had nothing to do with us specifically. But the fact that we're responsible for most of the Unified Light's esoteric weirdness AND being the most technologically advanced faction to devastating effect, AND hold a key choke point on Earth?

The HFY is making me kind of barfy and I'm just not having as much fun reading this as when I first found it. We don't have to be underdogs, but this is just too much!

justinkal said:
Just remember that all the "Humanity, Fuck Yeah" stuff here is equally "What The Fuck, Humanity?".

Don't forget that humans also have way more capacity to be evil assholes than members of other Unified Light aligned races, as evidenced by people like Magical Girl Sixth Heaven.

The thing is, Humanity isn't actually all that special in this setting. Sure they're advanced with weird magic, but we're outnumbered at least 30-1 by the next smallest polity. We're not even the most advanced group, considering the White Empire which I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread.

The White Empire, which makes up most of one the boarders along the LDC map is both big, and powerful enough to functionally wipe out the LDC groups all together on their own. And as 'strong' as Humanity is, we still can't take on the entire Unified Darkness on our own and get away with it. The only reason Earth is still standing is because we're almost literally surrounded by our allies, and attacking us directly would leave the Unified Darkness open to get drowned by the Elf Empire, or leave their pants down for a Heaven Interrupt.

Tylonius · Dec 7, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
The only reason Earth is still standing is because we're almost literally surrounded by our allies, and attacking us directly would leave the Unified Darkness open to get drowned by the Elf Empire, or leave their pants down for a Heaven Interrupt.

And of course the greatest of human inventions, Nuclear Deterrents.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 7, 2017

Tylonius said:
And of course the greatest of human inventions, Nuclear Deterrents.

That's a thing, yes. But only one way considering we're the only ones with nukes.

Gore17 said:
Though it should be mentioned that humanity is not the most technologically advanced faction, just the most advanced faction involved in the war.

Yeah, I found where I mentioned this:

Crystalwatcher said:
-The White Kingdom
These guys are a super massive kingdom of creatures that takes up what amounts to the entire "west" side of the LDC. They're a post-singularity society of Space Squids that made the conscious decision to abandon Magic and focus solely on Technological development. As it is, they don't give a flying hoot about anything else that's currently going on and mostly just spend their days worshiping Cosmos and acting like her white blood cells. Hunting down growing threats to her health and putting them down before they can cause damage. If they wanted, they could sterilize the entire LDC and there'd be shit anyone involved could do about it.

These guys are functionally what happened when min-maxing munchkins from Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity band together on the sole idea of keeping their god alive and pounding anyone stupid enough to piss them off into sludge.

Humanity might as well have nothing more than sticks and harsh language in comparison. If that. In total the White Kingdom's collective power is almost equivalent to a Starstream to low-Galaxy class Divine Being. They're the giant that if they wake up, no one wins.

Tylonius · Dec 8, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
That's a thing, yes. But only one way considering we're the only ones with nukes.

They don't need nukes, they have the ability to just overwhelm and crush Earth, wiping out humanity with pure numbers and force. They just wouldn't survive doing it and it would pretty much hand their enemies victory.

Unless I'm misreading the relative strengths.

Faraway-R · Dec 8, 2017

Crystalwatcher said:
General Slayer Abilities tend to lack the required power/metaphysical weight in order to effect abilities. For example Magical Girl Slayer wouldn't cut through San's Armor of the Time Lord while Timeslayer does. While General Slayer Abilities tend to see far more use, they tend to be far less effective in your described situation.

What about Shieldslayer? It is technically a single-affinity Slayer, but the affinity in question is Protection.

And Protection is an rather broad concept in and of itself, achievable through a variety of means but all with the same end.

How much luck would it have in negating things like False Existence, Armor of the Time Lord, or the less significant abilities like Thick Armor and Adamantine?

justinkal · Dec 8, 2017

Faraway-R said:
What about Shieldslayer? It is technically a single-affinity Slayer, but the affinity in question is Protection.

And Protection is an rather broad concept in and of itself, achievable through a variety of means but all with the same end.

How much luck would it have in negating things like False Existence, Armor of the Time Lord, or the less significant abilities like Thick Armor and Adamantine?

It wouldn't interact with the at all.

Armor of the Time Lord gets shut down because its source is Goddess White's Time affinity. Using a Slayer ability shuts down most defenses that the target gained from that affinity.

Crystalwatcher · Dec 8, 2017

Faraway-R said:
What about Shieldslayer? It is technically a single-affinity Slayer, but the affinity in question is Protection.

And Protection is an rather broad concept in and of itself, achievable through a variety of means but all with the same end.

How much luck would it have in negating things like False Existence, Armor of the Time Lord, or the less significant abilities like Thick Armor and Adamantine?

justinkal said:
It wouldn't interact with the at all.

Armor of the Time Lord gets shut down because its source is Goddess White's Time affinity. Using a Slayer ability shuts down most defenses that the target gained from that affinity.

*points*

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