because to me we won those battles when we got the yellow zoners , the forgotten ,Kilian's Nod defectors and Caravensari on our side already and Nod knows this , so to me this look like them giving us something we already have
You seem to be assuming that Nod has no significant plans or capabilities you don't know about, no hope of acquiring any capabilities that you don't know about or haven't taken into account, and, importantly, that not only do you know everything about their present and hoped-for future capabilities, but that they share your perspective on all things.

That is, you're assuming that they see and know exactly what you do- no more, no less- and can only be drawing the same conclusions as you, and are just being stubborn about not being already on your side when you know they should.

These are deeply flawed assumptions.

You cannot correctly analyze a diplomatic situation if you refuse to acknowledge that the other side's point of view actually exists, and will have to be treated with some degree of respect, and if you instead insist that the other side SHOULD know that they SHOULD just rationally surrender unconditionally to the one true world government, namely your world government.
 
Last edited:
Compelling Nod to confess all their crimes and wrongdoings is justified, even if we must do the same. If our cause is just, then they will drown in their own bloodshed while ours are but a blemish.
 
We can still subsume them down the line its just going to take longer and be piecemeal , some warlords will brought out like Yan , others will get the Caravensari treatment with GDI support, development , aid and investment all but turning them into a GDI client state joined with us at the hip , other more war crime happy Nod warlords will give us an excuse to crush them soon enough and a remaining few will turn into hermit kingdom warlord dictatorships until the warlord holding everything together dies and one of the other above scenarios comes into effect
You may test this assumption at your convenience.
 
I really like this reply.

While the Spartans' famous "molon labe" has a shadow cast over it by the generally disagreeable nature of the Spartan state and its system of brutal enslavement and cultural impoverishment, I feel like you've tapped into that same energy that Leonidas supposedly did, and commendably so.
I'm quoting one of my other favorite bald characters.
 
Compelling Nod to confess all their crimes and wrongdoings is justified, even if we must do the same. If our cause is just, then they will drown in their own bloodshed while ours are but a blemish.
Now that is a proper one , Nod did so much shady shit and war crimes compared to the GDI that more than once framed the GDI for them is just rubbing salt on the wounds seeing those truths brought to light Nod made to publicise and acknowledge them is more a balm to my soul and that of the many people who got fucked over because of them

another concession I would consider valid is Nod giving their people freedom of movement for all , people who don't want to live in impoverished warlord dictatorships and get conscripted into their armies should be free to leave if they want , the GDI will welcome them with open arms they can even join the Open Hand guys if they want

another concession for lasting peace is Nod not condoning slavey because I am relatively certain at least a few warlords or Nod cells practice it to deal with their skilled labor crunch, because being a slaver is grounds for GDI invasion as far as I am concerned
 
Last edited:
Now that is a proper one , Nod did so much shady shit and war crimes compared to the GDI that more than once framed the GDI for them is just rubbing salt on the wounds seeing those truths brought to light Nod made to publicise and acknowledge them is more a balm to my soul and that of the many people who got fucked over because of them
But you already knew about that, and still talked like Nod would be making no concessions.
 
I find it amusing that some people think that Truth and Reconciliation is going to come out with GDI smelling like roses in comparison to Nod. Let's not kid ourselves, GDI has done some messed up stuff in it's own time throughout its existence. One major thing being the abandonment of the Yellow Zones. Sure, GDI has tried to reclaim them during this quest, but that doesn't erase their own sins.

The point of Truth and Reconciliation was so that both side could actually acknowledge the other side's grievances and try to make amends, not so that NOD will be dragged through the mud.
 
Captain Jean-Luc Picard, facing down several angry Klingons questioning his ability to defend himself in a CQC fight.
Ohhhh. Even better.

I find it amusing that some people think that Truth and Reconciliation is going to come out with GDI smelling like roses in comparison to Nod. Let's not kid ourselves, GDI has done some messed up stuff in it's own time throughout its existence. One major thing being the abandonment of the Yellow Zones. Sure, GDI has tried to reclaim them during this quest, but that doesn't erase their own sins.

The point of Truth and Reconciliation was so that both side could actually acknowledge the other side's grievances and try to make amends, not so that NOD will be dragged through the mud.
Basically, Nod has a lot more up-close-and-personal "some of your guys literally bayonetted babies" type atrocities, the stuff that's very easy to intuitively understand as atrocity.

GDI has a lot more of the kind of atrocities you can really only commit while sitting calmly in an air-conditioned office sipping a cup of coffee several hundred miles from the scenes of human suffering. The decisions that, padded out with a few layers of bureaucratic language, seem almost reasonable, until you look at what happened as a consequence and go "wow, holy shit."
 
I find it amusing that some people think that Truth and Reconciliation is going to come out with GDI smelling like roses in comparison to Nod. Let's not kid ourselves, GDI has done some messed up stuff in it's own time throughout its existence. One major thing being the abandonment of the Yellow Zones. Sure, GDI has tried to reclaim them during this quest, but that doesn't erase their own sins.

The point of Truth and Reconciliation was so that both side could actually acknowledge the other side's grievances and try to make amends, not so that NOD will be dragged through the mud.
Terror attacks, False flags, usual warlord war crimes, biological experimentation, Bio/Chemical/Nuclear warfare, Weaponizing Tib, the world changing missile, Calling the scrin, Cabal. GDI by no means is clean or innocent but Nod suffers worse from this, especially if the endorsement from their prophet gets around the propaganda and radicalism instilled into them.
 
I disagree with this assessment, but only in that GDI would've been forced to decide between Karachi, or fighting the Regency War to something other than a stalemate.
My statement was based on GDI being caught trying for Karachi when Nod pulled the trigger on the Regency War, leading to the military being "caught leaning"... but even without that, it would have been much closer than it was had we not pre-empted what they thought were surprise attacks. I do not think you are taking into account the problems we would have had from losing a large amount of industry, as well as likely having a large chunk of the military mousetrapped and likely cut off from supply.
That is, canonically, not true.

Until you get ahold of Prothean Particle Rifles in ME3, the Citadel was categorically incapable of fielding handheld laser weaponry that actually works against hardsuits.

Additionally, GUARDIAN laser defences on ships have an absolutely pitifully short range. I don't remember the exact figure, but IIRC they are only effective out to "knife-fight" range. Which is incredibly silly because lasers in space have effectively infinite range, and should hit the target essentially instantly within one light-second. But that is the actual canon state of laser weaponry in Mass Effect, the Citadel is just bad at it.

Unless you are choosing to disregard direct canonical statements from the games, then GDI and Nod laser weapons are superior. By a lot. This is also ignoring how new said weapons are, they'll be getting a lot of upgrades in the future.

GDI shielding tech is also better, because it can block more than just kinetic weaponry. I expect it's current state in the 2060's to be weaker than Citadel kinetic barriers just due to how new the technology is, but given another 60-80 years of tech growth I have little doubt it will just be the better shielding system.
I have the advantage of having worked with Ithillid for a while, and so seeing thoughts working out things about the sequelquest, so please trust me when I say: you are wrong. First, not seeing a technology used in-game does not mean it's not something they can pull out of mothballs and implement within a few years... it means that it's not considered part of the current "meta". Yesy GDI/Nod lasers will be better, but that implies nothing about other areas of technology. And it's likely to be largely CBLs that are the "killer app", because they don't take STUs, and thus are cheap, relatively speaking. And thus widely deployable.

Also, the controlling factors as far as laser effectiveness in space are power, collimation, and aiming stability. Especially the last. Because space is fucking big. If the turret isn't sufficiently insulated from the vibrations of the ship it's on, that will make it wibble all over the place. At 10 KM, which is what is considered "knife-fighting range", a .01-degree variance would put the beam off-target by almost 1.75 meters, which means that it's really hard to keep the beam on the same target point long enough to do damage.
what exactly is Nod giving up here as part of the truth and reconciliation option ? and I mean materially not a moral , ideological or political things , are they giving up their WMD arsenal for example
One thing that is not exactly material, but is a major factor in Nod's capabilities, is the valid perception that GDI has been unjust in many ways. They won't be able to point to GDI personnel who have committed atrocities and say "See? They murder us and get rewarded for it."
In a more material category: many of their people who have committed terror attacks against civilians will no longer be available for operations.

But the biggest thing that both sides are giving up, is the underlying assumption that the other side does not have the right to exist as a self-determining entity.
 
still talked like Nod would be making no concessions
I want real concessions not stuff for politicians and talking heads to brag about scoring ideological points over , stuff like freedom of movement for all , banning slavery (some warlords almost certainly practice it) , no more Nod targeting the forgotten for experimental fodder , no more human experimentation (they did so much of that fucked up shit) , Nod themselves admitting to the war crimes (especially the ones they framed the GDI for) for all their supporters and believers to see
 
I want real concessions not stuff for politicians and talking heads to brag about scoring ideological points over , stuff like freedom of movement for all , banning slavery (some warlords almost certainly practice it) , no more Nod targeting the forgotten for experimental fodder , no more human experimentation (they did so much of that fucked up shit) , Nod themselves admitting to the war crimes (especially the ones they framed the GDI for) for all their supporters and believers to see
I cannot comprehend how you think "Nod admitting to war crimes" is real, while "Nod undermining the legitimacy of their own government [by admitting to war crimes and giving up the rhetoric of their impending intent to conquer GDI]" is not real.

Terror attacks, False flags, usual warlord war crimes, biological experimentation, Bio/Chemical/Nuclear warfare, Weaponizing Tib, the world changing missile, Calling the scrin, Cabal. GDI by no means is clean or innocent but Nod suffers worse from this, especially if the endorsement from their prophet gets around the propaganda and radicalism instilled into them.
The thing is, most of these atrocities can be divided into one of two categories.

First is stuff that Kane, personally, did- if not by himself, then without the broader collusion of Nod as a whole. Chiefly the World-Altering Missile, "calling the Scrin" and, I'm fairly sure, Cabal. Those were pretty much all his fault (though he himself paid a pretty ugly price for Cabal as I recall). A Truth and Reconciliation commission is going to involve acknowledging that he did those things, but Nod suffered greatly from the Scrin and Cabal, just as GDI did.

Second is stuff where Nod can argue that there's moral equivalency between doing those things and things that GDI also did.

False flag attacks are widely regarded as a legitimate ruse de guerre. I am sure GDI has attempted them too, and complaining because we're not as good at them seems rather petty.

Biological experimentation on specific individuals and terror attacks are not necessarily a lot worse than abandoning people to starve or be eaten by tiberium in a Yellow Zone.

Using nuclear weapons to blow the hell out of things is not obviously a lot worse than using ion cannons to blow the hell out of things.

Weaponizing tiberium is bad, but so is creating a situation where the descendants of the corporate leaders that did a lot to spread tiberium in the first place get to live in comfortable arcologies in Blue Zones while the Third World and large forgotten areas like the US's "flyover country" decay into Yellow Zones. Like, have you SEEN the maps of Yellow Zone territories in Command and Conquer 3? They are not nice places to be, mostly.

The practical upshot of all this is that while there are tons and tons of war crimes to pin on Nod, "Truth and Reconciliation" is going to have to involve acknowledging, seriously and earnestly, that well before the quest even began, GDI was already complicit in millions upon millions of deaths and really could have done a lot better than it did. Remember that "before quest start" and for that matter "before the Third Tiberium War even started" was only 20 years ago in-game. Think about how many Americans still care deeply about 9/11 and make it a foundational aspect of how they view the political and strategic landscape of the world; there are at least that many Nod citizens who feel that way about pre-TWIII GDI actions.

We can say "Nod did worse," But realistically it will look like a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind to a lot of people.
 
Last edited:
Second is stuff where Nod can argue that there's moral equivalency between doing those things and things that GDI also did.

False flag attacks are widely regarded as a legitimate ruse de guerre. I am sure GDI has attempted them too, and complaining because we're not as good at them seems rather petty.

Biological experimentation on specific individuals and terror attacks are not necessarily a lot worse than abandoning people to starve or be eaten by tiberium in a Yellow Zone.

Using nuclear weapons to blow the hell out of things is not obviously a lot worse than using ion cannons to blow the hell out of things.

Weaponizing tiberium is bad, but so is creating a situation where the descendants of the corporate leaders that did a lot to spread tiberium in the first place get to live in comfortable arcologies in Blue Zones while the Third World and large forgotten areas like the US's "flyover country" decay into Yellow Zones. Like, have you SEEN the maps of Yellow Zone territories in Command and Conquer 3? They are not nice places to be, mostly.
first leaving people to die in the yellow zones is not equivalent to Nod collecting them then forcingly exposing them to tiberium till they mutate or become visoroids then vivisecting them or forcibly grafting cybernatics and mind control systems to them

second the GDI is willings to recognize its failures and war crimes and we are even making amends for them and been doing so for years with our work with the forgotten , the yellow zones and caravensari but is Nod willing to do the same ?

also the GDI abandoning the yellow zones as much Nod's fault considering it was often them driving the GDI out just look at what happened at Rio
 
Last edited:
Additionally, GUARDIAN laser defences on ships have an absolutely pitifully short range. I don't remember the exact figure, but IIRC they are only effective out to "knife-fight" range. Which is incredibly silly because lasers in space have effectively infinite range, and should hit the target essentially instantly within one light-second. But that is the actual canon state of laser weaponry in Mass Effect, the Citadel is just bad at it.
Citadel GARDIAN lasers are only effective at knife-fighting range, a few dozen kilometers going by the Codex entry for ME space combat, against other warships. Warships possess far stronger and thicker hulls than any missile or fighter, which means that the GARDIAN lasers need to be fired at a closer range to limit beam diffraction. Against missiles or fighters, effective range for GARDIAN lasers can be assumed to be at least a bit farther out.

GARDIAN lasers doesn't necessarily have to only be limited against warships to a few dozen kilometers. Going by the entry for GARDIAN lasers themselves, most powers prefer mechanical reliability over sheer performance, with the Salarian Union being the one of the few noted exceptions in using near-ultraviolet lasers with 'six times the range', believing that additional time to shoot down incoming missiles beats out increased maintenance and repair costs. The Geth are another exception in using UV lasers, which they used to devastating effect against the Migrant Fleet in ME3.

So as far as I can tell, it's not solely because the Citadel is bad at combat lasers. They just plainly get more bang for their buck by using mass accelerators as general-purpose weapons instead of trying to get lasers that do the same jobs. But that's the Citadel of canon Mass Effect, and I'm pretty sure Ithillid will be going with their own interpretation shaped by this galaxy with mixed-together settings.
 
It might be that lasers are just genuinely really tricky to actually get right, the first time your trying to use them. Requiring you to have several millenium of experience and tech before you can start properly doing it.

Humanity just got to skip a ton of that, because Kane is sitting the background going "Here tiny human child, have this deadly laser weapon", to Nod and then GDI is basically copying NOD's homework.

By the same nature though, i expected that Citadel in a meeting with humanity, would have people get weapon samples through underhanded deals and more or less copy over their own system in a semi-timely fashion. Lasers might be hard, but it seems like once you get how they generally work, you can start to improve and incoperate them in a decent timeline.
 
first leaving people to die in the yellow zones is not equivalent to Nod collecting them then forcingly exposing them to tiberium till they mutate or become visoroids then vivisecting them or forcibly grafting cybernatics and mind control systems to them
Look, Nod turning ME, personally, into a visceroid is not morally equivalent to GDI failing to evacuate me into a Blue Zone in the 2020s or 2030s and leaving me to turn into a visceroid by 'natural causes.'

But I very much doubt that Nod ever performed those experiments on more than, say, one million people, whereas a LOT more than one million people got left behind to die of tiberium exposure in the GDI evacuations of the 2020s and their systematic efforts to keep Yellow Zoners out of the Blue Zones for fear of Nod infiltration.

For every visceroid and agonized unwilling cyborg Nod created as some kind of weird science project, there are a lot of people who died very terrible deaths primarily due to GDI policy decisions.

...

And YES, you can put together some counter-argument for why Nod's side of this argument is unimportant and GDI is the wronged party here, Nod is much worse, and so on, and so on. I know you can do it, I could probably even write the argument you'd use to do so for you.

Please, just take a moment before you start doing that, okay?

Because both in game and out of game, we have reached the point where a man has to stop and have a sense of perspective and say "holy fuck, at some point the argument just DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER."

Any real or fictional armed conflict as totalizing and destructive as the GDI-Nod wars have been will, INEVITABLY, create enormous amounts of reasons on both sides to be very, very angry that the other side of the conflict ever existed in the first place. ANY such conflict provides ample evidence to generate in the mind of one side's partisans a great fiery conviction that the other side does not deserve to live and certainly does not deserve to live in peace. That the only acceptable end of the war is for the other side to give up everything, to be subjugated under the partisan's triumphant boot, to grovel and admit that they were wrong about everything that ever matters, that their own dead deserved to die while the partisan's dead were all innocent victims.

The only problem is, people like that are the reason why wars go on indefinitely and it is incredibly fucking stupid to insist on letting that kind of argument form the prevailing tone of GDI-Nod interactions.

It needs to fucking stop.

...

It needs to fucking stop.

In-character it needs to stop because the world will literally die if Nod and GDI remain at each other's throats and Kane isn't convinced that GDI intends to treat Nod with some degree of decency in the event that it prevails over a post-tiberium future.

Out of character, it needs to stop because we literally just had this vote, and the "prioritize reconciling with Nod and learning from the Tacitus" faction won out over the "prioritize subjugating Nod and forcing them to grovel beneath a GDI boot" faction.

The argument is OVER. It is resolved.

You are arguing here against many if not most of the most active long-term participants of the quest. You are arguing against things the QM and those who have co-written Nod-related content with the QM have explicitly told you in so many words. It is too much. It needs to stop.
 
Last edited:
So, Karachi at the time of the Regency War... GDI would've been fucked if we had gone Karachi when the Regency War kicked off. Go back to whichever entry involved voting on which plan to pursue in light of the discovered Nod plans and look at the Karachi option. Then read the thread posts following that as people reacted to seeing that info.

Why? Because our Navy was in such a shit state at the time (in part because people forgot that ships take time to build and left the escort ships designing/building far too late to be of use), that it would've required the vast majority of the Navy for Karachi. So every instance of convoys getting hit during the Regency War? Delete all references to escort ships and their effects from those instances. Convoys would've been back to the days of just post-TW3 levels of protection and would've gotten slaughtered. Bintang could've run wild in the west Pacific without any sort of counter force to engage her like it did.

How well could GDI have done on the ground globally if a large number of convoys were not really making to their destinations intact? And if we switched gears immediately... well, it still takes time to redeploy ships, not counting any already sunk or in need of yard time for repairs.
 
So! In an attempt to change the discussion to a lighter topic...how much do people think that the new fabricator technology we're getting will cut down on the construction time needed for the TCN? Sure, we're going for the long-term Tiberium industry solution as opposed to the "get rid of Tiberium on Earth all at once" option, and that's going to take longer, but I'd hope that the new technology we're getting will speed up the rate at which we actually construct the thing.
 
Given we went from "The Citadel will notice GDI's economy" to "You're going to be poking the Citadel in the soft spots" after getting them quite a bit.

I imagine now a decent chunk of time-skip Treasury's debates will be how much production is focused on building more fabbers vs using the ones they have to build the TCN.

Given we're going for the higher end TCN I'd say we probably could cut down the time to what would have originally been the default TCN time frame, if not a bit more.
 
Back
Top