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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
It only took you over a month?

Impressive... considering in the time it took you to catch up to the last update, @DragonParadox posted anywhere from 62 (at an absolute minimum) to 267 (at a maximum). Or an average of 77.5 to 222.5 updates.

Supposing you finished somewhere in the middle of that estimate, the quest had grown by around 145 updates, which is an average of 80,000~ words.

Coincidentally, if you had decided to take a break for a mere seven days total through that period without reading, that could have been over 90,000~ words instead. If you had taken longer (overall, like say reading a couple hundred updates at a time and doing other things besides reading this quest every day), you probably never would have caught up. :V
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the thing is that I'm an obsessive idiot and thanks to the quarantine I had a lot more free time than I tend to, so the only thing I've been reading for about a month and a half has been this quest. on average I read 5-8.5 forum pages a day (on the reader mode). my brain feels like it's melting.

Edit: the average that I gave in this comment is correct so I did the math and it must have taken me closer to two months than one. this has been longer than I expected lol.
 
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[X] Goldfish

Well, I reckon about 30 to 50 percent of what he said here is truth...
So we probably don't really want encountering the Arch-Archon of Hellven, for whatever reasons.
 
Interesting. I wonder why the tease with Wisdom. It is not like we gave anything about ourselves. Even if we are a fake persona jumping straight to Viserys or a Valyrian is a bit much
 
[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore

@Goldfish , the question is not whether Hassan thinks that the Lightbulb should have used another method or no. The question is whether he should have allowed the situation to become as delicate as this.

And the answers are basically two: yes, you can have a terrible secret and keep the power if you try hard enough, or no, you can't, so you should step down.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by egoo on Jun 14, 2020 at 9:39 AM, finished with 18 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] "From Lord Ezhekidich's perspective, one can see how it might seem wise to keep such damaging information secret. His plan for doing so, however, shows that he allowed his fear of discovery to overcome his ability to reason soundly. Given the resources invested into securing the tome, he could have simply sent a representative to the auction as the Lord of Minauros appears to have done. Even had he been unable to purchase the tome, he would have learned who did. Surely it would have been less troublesome for his agents to secure the tome from the winner of the auction after they left Heaven's Shore, where doing so would be merely distasteful rather than illegal."
    [X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
    [X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
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[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore

I think @Tomcost is correct. The Commandant here is searching for the spirit of the answer, not the formulae that helps one accomplish their goal.

Philosophically, if you are what you say you are, to the point that indisputably your supporters would abandon you in droves because there is almost nothing to distinguish your rule and that of a Devil, you are too far gone for them and are actively deceiving them. It's more than a little white lie to give comfort or not hurt someone's feelings, you are actively poisoning the well your entire community drinks from while declaring the waters to be pure.

If it's so dark a secret that a supposed paragon of virtue would so quickly be compared to a general of Hell, you don't have any right to be calling yourself on the side of angels. It has more meaning than someone who is lawful or someone who is good. You are an example that other people can look up to. This holds more value to his supporters than his ability to rule or his capacity for moral reasoning.

Only an egotist would try to twist their reasoning for doing otherwise and try to sound like they are doing the right thing, despite the fact that they no longer believe in what it means to be an angel. Not the regular "I am an absolute ruler" kind either, I mean the type who wields power not for others but for themselves. I imagine if he had sat down and told his inner circle (presuming it contains people who believe in his act wholesale) the truth and offered to step down, that alone would have clarified his worthiness for rule. Anyone willing to sacrifice power for others' peace of mind probably couldn't be anything but what they appear to be.

Pragmatically speaking, the utility you can provide as a Steel-winged adviser to your replacement isn't actually much different than your capacity to give the people what they believe they want while Gold-winged.
 
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[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
 
[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
 
[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
 
Crake said:
[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore

I think @Tomcost is correct. The Commandant here is searching for the spirit of the answer, not the formulae that helps one accomplish their goal.

Philosophically, if you are what you say you are, to the point that indisputably your supporters would abandon you in droves because there is almost nothing to distinguish your rule and that of a Devil, you are too far gone for them and are actively deceiving them. It's more than a little white lie to give comfort or not hurt someone's feelings, you are actively poisoning the well your entire community drinks from while declaring the waters to be pure.

If it's so dark a secret that a supposed paragon of virtue would so quickly be compared to a general of Hell, you don't have any right to be calling yourself on the side of angels. It has more meaning than someone who is lawful or someone who is good. You are an example that other people can look up to. This holds more value to his supporters than his ability to rule or his capacity for moral reasoning.

Only an egotist would try to twist their reasoning for doing otherwise and try to sound like they are doing the right thing, despite the fact that they no longer believe in what it means to be an angel. Not the regular "I am an absolute ruler" kind either, I mean the type who wields power not for others but for themselves. I imagine if he had sat down and told his inner circle (presuming it contains people who believe in his act wholesale) the truth and offered to step down, that alone would have clarified his worthiness for rule. Anyone willing to sacrifice power for others' peace of mind probably couldn't be anything but what they appear to be.

Pragmatically speaking, the utility you can provide as a Steel-winged adviser to your replacement isn't actually much different than your capacity to give the people what they believe they want while Gold-winged.
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Still, the argument is what our persona was more likely to think, and the straightforward answer Hassan is likely to give is that you can't lie forever.
 
Tomcost said:
[X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore

@Goldfish , the question is not whether Hassan thinks that the Lightbulb should have used another method or no. The question is whether he should have allowed the situation to become as delicate as this.

And the answers are basically two: yes, you can have a terrible secret and keep the power if you try hard enough, or no, you can't, so you should step down.
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The thing is that nobody makes it to that level of power without secrets. They don't even have to be horrible ones necessarily, seen here in how close Ezhekidich was to becoming a devil instead of a celestial. If you have to be so completely perfect that nothing anyone can dig up about you could cause you harm to lead then no one really could. There are limits to that, but where a devil or genie would place them is dramatically different than where a human would.

In a broad sense so long as your secret doesn't interfere with your job, or induce you to abuse your position in some way, then the ethics of it are arguable so long as the secret itself isn't horribly objectionable.

For the sake of example, a politician with a history of alcoholism they've since overcome would almost certainly hide that fact. So long as it didn't impact their work in any way there'd be some room for argument ethically speaking. If they started abusing their position to hide it however, then they'd be crossing a line.

How much of that principle applies here is a difficult question without a better idea of what this lore implies, but to a devil of all people this doesn't seem like the sort of revelation that's personally unacceptable. Therefore, to this guy anyway, the issue here is likely more in how he handled this situation than in keeping the secret in the first place.

The point of the question is to test how we fall relative to him, and critiquing the lord of Heaven's technique is a good way to frame Hassan as someone easy for a devil to work with.
Edit: I just saw Crake's post, and there's something I'm unclear on. This book is about how Ezh was born right? Specifically detailing how at some point in the progression from petitioner and whatever he is now he almost Fell. He might be close to Diabolic now, but it seems unfair to judge him for an internal crisis he surpassed as a relative child.

Accusing him of being a devil sympathizer now? Sure. He's a pawn for Hell and everyone knows it. The thing is, so far as I understand it anyway, this information doesn't expose anything that isn't already obvious and is at best tangential to his placement.
 
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I feel like we are hypocrite'ing the shit out of ourselves with these answers, fake identity or jot.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The thing is that nobody makes it to that level of power without secrets. They don't even have to be horrible ones necessarily, seen here in how close Ezhekidich was to becoming a devil instead of a celestial. If you have to be so completely perfect that nothing anyone can dig up about you could cause you harm to lead then no one really could. There are limits to that, but where a devil or genie would place them is dramatically different than where a human would.

In a broad sense so long as your secret doesn't interfere with your job, or induce you to abuse your position in some way, then the ethics of it are arguable so long as the secret itself isn't horribly objectionable.
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The secret is not that he almost became a devil once.
It is that he is right now, and has been for a while, really close to falling.

It's a constant thing, something that effects his rulership and decisions every single day.
Something that drives him to go 1984 on history and scholars in his realm, to make sure nobody thinks he might not be the great Angel Lord, nobody thinks he is flawed.
He most likely overcompensates for his own insecurity and that has consequences.
egoo said:
I feel like we are hypocrite'ing the shit out of ourselves with these answers, fake identity or jot.
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We do not alter history and burn books to appear as Viserys the Perfect.

If his secrets did not affect his work, it would be one thing.
But they very clearly do.
 
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DragonParadox said:
"Tell me stone-born, do you think there was wisdom in trying to keep such information from un-trusted hands, even if he was foolish in the manner he chose to do so?"
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@BronzeTongue , it is not the question he is asking.

Now, I agree with your point, but this is not a practical question. It has already been decided that the Lightbulb chose a poor method, so there is no need to point that out again.
 
Ok, things look pretty settled. Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 14, 2020 at 10:23 AM, finished with 29 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
    [X] No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore
Click to expand...
 
BronzeTongue said:
The thing is that nobody makes it to that level of power without secrets. They don't even have to be horrible ones necessarily, seen here in how close Ezhekidich was to becoming a devil instead of a celestial. If you have to be so completely perfect that nothing anyone can dig up about you could cause you harm to lead then no one really could. There are limits to that, but where a devil or genie would place them is dramatically different than where a human would.
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We're not arguing for perfection being the necessity in this case, we are saying that not only can you not lie forever, but if the lie is obscuring your likeness to a diabolical iron-fisted ruler, the extent to which you would have to go to pursue this lie is unconscionable towards the needs of your people.

His people do not need an able ruler who can help them survive, a sufficient plurality of people still want to do that. They need someone willing to lay it all on the line for them no matter what, who still believes there can be a good ending for them.

An admission of imperfection would result in a surge of confidence in this crowd, but if the imperfection is actually the same brand of poison which has intoxicated the City of Brass (Asmodeus' influence) then he would never admit it in the first place, because he wouldn't think to act like the person they believe him to be. Because it is a lie on a greater, more violating level than one meant to protect and comfort.
 
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Tomcost said:
@DragonParadox , what is the reward for Hassan for delivering the prisoner?

I mean, that's the part we are playing as. The Greedy earth-born
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At this point, likely a gesture of the Commandant's favor... keeping in mind the fact that he is apparently suspicious of our origins as an Oread from the Peerless Empire. And seems to strongly favor the idea we're from the Imperium.

That could be natural suspicion at work and @DragonParadox foreshadowing another confrontation.
 
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