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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
Yep. Also, with a range of 440 feet, a Launcher basically outranges any being's ability to see underwater, whereas a Jolt wand is going to cap out at 25 feet and Benign Transposition at 110 feet.

Just had a neat idea. Launchers are basically hollow tubes, so it would be simple to fire a harpoon from one of them with a line attached to it.

How would you like to be an enemy that gets harpooned, with the line attached to a Gigantean Plant-Imbued Manta Ray? You're going to be going for a ride whether you want to or not.
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Nice tactic. Could play havoc against an enemy...
 
Azel said:
Louis XIV was definitely a better ruler for most of his subjects then Josef Stalin, but neither of them were terribly fond of sharing their absolute power.
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You know, this sparks an interesting thought. Was Louis XIV actually better for his people than Stalin? Louis the XIV went to war against all of Europe (and unlike Stalin who can try to wriggle out of WW2 blame by blaming most of the responsibility on Hitler and diluting the rest with his fellow appeasement leaders, Louis XIV's ambitions take a lot of the blame for his 30 years of war against Europe), had a civil war, fucked things up bad enough to have multiple famines in what was one of Europe's wealthiest countries, and had a large colonial Empire with all the bad things that that implies. He's basically Stalin minus the gulags, but with even more wars. Wars that weren't as deadly as WW2, but he had a much smaller population.
I couldn't find easily comparable numbers (especially for Louis XIV - French historians like to forget about the colonies, etc), but I wonder if once you adjust for their different population sizes, one ruler was significantly worse to live under than the other. I mean, it's probably Stalin, but I was surprised by my inability to immediately say so with certainty.
Furthermore, a lot of my knowledge of Louis XIV comes from sources I'd consider slightly partisan, and it is likely colored by my existing poor opinion of his successors. I may just be biased against him here, and be exaggerating his negative aspects.
If you happen to know where I could find actual sources for this kind of thing, please tell me! I'm suddenly interested in learning more about this!

Azel said:
That's the context we are in though. In a the 15th century he would have been a bleeding heart liberal, but we are not a 15th century audience.

Which is pretty much the thing. The Imperium is very much in the facist corner of political systems, with militarism, strong state control and all the other trappings. The main difference is that the threats both internal and external (Daemon cultists, Baator, Void, etc.) are not made up propaganda. They really exist and they really want everything to burn.

But one should keep in mind what the system we have built actually is and that other options existed. The alternative is Strong-Man shilling and the good old Hard Men making Hard Decisions while Hard. A lot of the bad stuff Viserys has done and keeps doing is strictly optional, but is being done because it gives him more personal and political power. We could have also become a wandering adventurer that helped those in need for free and united the world as a inspiring leader, instead of an absolute ruler.

And no, whatever beautiful arguments some people might now want to throw at me to justify these actions should keep in mind that they are just that. Justifications. Every Strong-Man has those.
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This is technically correct in some ways, but extremely misleading in others. You're framing things as "authoritarian rule is bad, therefore Viserys is bad". That's entirely correct (I assume that most people in this thread like democracy IRL), of course, but it forgets about the setting. You say that "other options existed", but I can't seem to remember seeing them at any point in this quest.
  • Viserys is an IC monarchist. Planetos doesn't have democracies, IIRC, and we never had an option to move towards a better system than monarchy.
  • The difference between an absolute monarchy that centralizes power and military might on a national level VS a feudal monarchy that centralizes power and military might on a regional level is huge for the existing nobility whose power and privileges decrease, but seems minor for everyone else.
  • Playing as an inspiring adventurer would effectively have meant strengthening feudal monarchies, and possibly spending some IC time Diplomancing people to promote peace between them. I fail to see how this is any better than what we ended up doing. Possibly more fun for @Artemis1992, but morally upstanding?
  • A lot of the bad stuff Viserys ends up doing seems very personal, and more or less unrelated to being a King. Fucking over random people because their ancestors did evil was a bargain made in exchange for Rhaella's life, for example. When our PCs go around and use "questionable tactics" it's usually for the sort of goal any PCs would have (beat monsters, get loot).
  • While it is true that fantasy tends to legitimize unacceptable political systems like monarchies, within the constraints of this genre's generic morality Viserys fits the "Good King" tropes extremely well.

The "this regime is basically fascist and legitimizing it through a Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard" critique works very well for 40k, but it doesn't work that well here. While we are definitely a fascist regime by every definition I know of (well, apart from the "freedom of expression exists" nitpick), we've also avoided most of the reasons to hate on fascist regimes. While we are indeed a charismatic dictator with little regards for basic rights (the right to privacy, especially), pretty much every other bad thing I can think of has been conspicuously avoided and fought against. It would make sense to point out that this quest may be effectively legitimizing fascism by positively portraying a fascist dictator. But on the other hand, we do make a point of visibly rejecting a lot of fascist regime mainstays too...

However the "we're not democratic" criticism is IMO a bad one, because it was never an IC option in the first place. We had to choose between several flavors of monarchies, and IMO the most democratic possibility would have been something like "a monarchy, but where Lords can peacefully depose or stymie another Aerys". And even that would have required character development. Democracy is miles away from our character, and from the setting.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 24, 2020 at 1:17 PM, finished with 53 posts and 12 votes.
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Part MMMDXXII: More than a Whisper
  • Threadmarks
    • More than a Whisper ​

    Twentieth Day of the First Month 294 AC

    Most would-be vassals looking to strike a good bargain for their fealty would be at least slightly weary of being offered the company of dragon turtles, a seawyrm leading a dance of coral drakes and shadebreacher whales to name but a few of the host you name before the assembled court. The fey nod with good cheer, a symphony of sea-song seeming to burst from every throat without prompting, likely to entrance any passing ships sailing close enough across the straight.

    "Wonder if that's how it got its name? The Whispering Sound I mean," Asha asks, eyes closed as she listens to the last of the fading melody. "There seem to be a lot of old things coming back that we had forgotten the kenning of."

    "Perhaps, but they have never sung this song before," addressing the court once more you add. "May it be an omen of things to come, unseen and even undreamed before this day."

    The fey cheer for novelty of course, for what is a tale that never changes with the ages but one already dead, but perhaps they cheer also for hope that the seas no longer hold horrors that pray on mortal and immortal alike.

    ***​

    For all the grand uses that magic can be put to it is still a surprisingly satisfying sensation to dry your hair with a wave of your hand as soon as you reach shore, a boon you extend to your companions also of course. "You are out here meaning to talk to Reacher Lords aren't you, Your Grace?" Asha asks as her short unruly curls are briefly untangled by the arcane wind.

    "That is indeed the plan, it should not take too long though, besides those already pledged in all but name to the Court of Stars there are few reasons for any lord of the Reach not to take a hand offered in friendship from Sorcerer's Deep. The Tyrells never had a strong grip on the Reach without royal support behind them and few in these lands have any reason to think fondly of the man they fought in the Usurpation, however halfhearted the attempt." Truth be told you are not sure what you find more offensive, the fact that Mace Tyrell tried to play both sides of the war by camping in front of one of the strongest keeps in Westeros, or the fact that he thought to excuse himself by reason of a missing raven.

    From her expression Asha is not thinking of the rebellion however, but something farther ahead as she looks out over the water. "Could you spare a moment, Your Grace, to carry me to the Arbor?"

    "The Arbor?" You can guess what business she might have there, but it is sooner than you had anticipated, much sooner. Her arrangement with Horas Redwyne would be far simpler to approach once you are King of the Seven Kingdoms in fact and not forced to move in secret lest you precipitate war.

    "Lady Redwyne found out about me somehow, probably her husband not having the good sense to keep his mouth shut about the letters Horas has been sending and she... disapproves, the way the fey disapprove of bilestone I mean. This is a conversation I should be having sooner rather than later before she wears Lord Paxter down." Her expression darkens as she speaks to one only a shade less angry than one she wears in battle.

    "Does Horas know you intend to speak to his mother?" you ask carefully.

    "No," the word is flat and final. Then she sighs. "It's not that he would argue against it, he was horrified by the letter his mother sent, but he would insist on coming with me and playing the gallant knight even though I don't need it and it would do more harm than good to seem besotted."

    What do you do?

    [] Take Asha to the Arbor and move on
    -[] Write in where

    [] Argue against Asha going to the Arbor at this time
    -[] Write in arguments

    [] Travel with Asha to the Arbor and help her smooth things over

    [] Write in

    OOC: So you know that saying about absence making the heart grow fonder? Well Horas Redwyne's heart and other parts of him are definitely fonder, and he was perhaps a touch too enthusiastic about his marriage prospects in letters home.
     
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    • Who are these people. After a certain point in the story, every noble in westros became interchangeable for me. Like the only dinstict ones i remember are stannis and the royce. Everyone else is just unimportant assholes.
     
    Acolyte said:
    Who are these people. After a certain point in the story, every noble in westros became interchangeable for me. Like the only dinstict ones i remember are stannis and the royce. Everyone else is just unimportant assholes.
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    The Redwynes are one of the principal Houses sworn to Highgarden. You guys had a chat with Paxter Redwyne when the fey were going after the Crown of Flowers and he eventually decided to throw in his lot in with you. Part of that was sending his recently resurrected son to SD where he ended up in a relationship with Asha, something that is very politically convenient for her (the Redwynes have both a mercantile and commercial focus) and mildly convenient for you, it would help draw the Ironborn out of Isolation once Westeros is conquered.

    Unfortunetly Greyjoys do not have the best reputation in the Reach and Asha may have an even worse one than usual, she ran away from a proposed betrothal to be a pirate captain.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    More than a Whisper ​

    Twentieth Day of the First Month 294 AC

    Most would-be vassals looking to strike a good bargain for their fealty would be at least slightly weary of being offered the company of dragon turtles, a seawyrm leading a dance of coral drakes, and Shadebreacher whales to name but a few of the host you name before the assembled court. The fey nod with good cheer, a symphony of sea-song seeming to burst from every throat without prompting, likely to entrance any passing ships sailing close enough across the straight.

    "Wonder if that's how it got its name? The Whispering Sound, I mean," Asha asks, eyes closed as she listens to the last of the fading melody. "There seem to be a lot of old things coming back that we had forgotten the kenning of."

    "Perhaps, but they have never sung this song before." Addressing the court once more, you add, "May it be an omen of things to come, unseen, even undreamed, before this day."

    The fey cheer for novelty of course, for what is a tale that never changes with the ages but one already dead, but perhaps they cheer also for hope that the seas no longer hold horrors that pray on mortal and immortal alike.

    ***​

    For all the grand uses that magic can be put to, it is still a surprisingly satisfying sensation to dry your hair with a wave of your hand as soon as you reach shore, a boon you extend to your companions also, of course. "You are out here meaning to talk to Reacher Lords aren't you, Your Grace?" Asha asks as her short unruly curls are briefly untangled by the arcane wind.

    "That is indeed the plan, it should not take too long, though. Besides those already pledged in all but name to the Court of Stars, there are few reasons for any lord of the Reach not to take a hand offered in friendship from Sorcerer's Deep. The Tyrells never had a strong grip on the Reach without royal support behind them, and few in these lands have any reason to think fondly of the man they fought in the Usurpation, however halfhearted the attempt." Truth be told, you are not sure what you find more offensive, the fact that Mace Tyrell tried to play both sides of the war by camping in front of one of the strongest keeps in Westeros, or the fact that he thought to excuse himself by reason of a missing raven.

    From her expression, however, Asha is not thinking of the rebellion, but something farther ahead as she looks out over the water. "Could you spare a moment, Your Grace, to carry me to the Arbor?"

    "The Arbor?" You can guess what business she might have there, but it is sooner than you had anticipated, much sooner. Her arrangement with Horas Redwyne would be far simpler to approach once you are King of the Seven Kingdoms, in fact rather than forced to move in secret lest you precipitate war.

    "Lady Redwyne found out about me somehow, probably her husband not having the good sense to keep his mouth shut about the letters Horas has been sending, and she... disapproves. The way the fey disapprove of bilestone, I mean. This is a conversation I should be having sooner rather than later, before she wears Lord Paxter down." Her expression darkens as she speaks, to one only a shade less angry than one she wears in battle.

    "Does Horas know you intend to speak to his father?" you ask carefully.

    "No," the word is flat and final. Then she sighs before continuing, "It's not that he would argue against it. He was horrified by the letter his mother sent, but he would insist on coming with me and playing the gallant knight even though I don't need it, and it would do more harm than good to seem besotted."

    What do you do?

    [] Take Asha to the Arbor and move on
    -[] Write in where

    [] Argue against Asha going to the Arbor at this time
    -[] Write in arguments

    [] Travel with Asha to the Arbor and help her smooth things over

    [] Write in

    OOC: So you know that saying about absence making the heart grow fonder? Well Horas Redwyne's heart and other parts of him are definitely fonder and he was perhaps a touch too enthusiastic about his marriage prospects in letters home. Not yet edited.
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    Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
     
    What were we planning on giving her? Shes got no land or title in the iron islands I assume... giving her something to show off would be helpful.

    It's also tempting to let her try and sway her potential father in law on her own honestly.
     
    [X] Have this conversation in front of Horas, you know he respects you and would take you at your word if he would do more good keeping back from the conversation than not, but truth be told he seemed cannier than one who would try to shield Asha from his family's disapproval. It's better for open and clear communication in any relationship political or personal.
    -[X] Throw your full weight behind Asha in terms of vocal support (and obviously full royal backing in Asha's endeavor to reshape the Iron Islands economically, politically and to an extent culturally, as well as obviously militarily), plus a suite of social buffs like Divine Insight, Voice of the Dragon, Moment of Greatness, etc. and a ward from True Sight to give her the best chances of convincing them. At this point you count it astonishingly unlikely most Lords in the Reach do not make use of such enchantments during negotiations too, but it would work better to keep people guessing. Most don't have the ability to use True Sight for more than a minute regardless.
    --[X] Form a telepathic link with Asha as well, you have a better Sense Motive than her, might as well just give her a cheat sheet into what both Paxter and his lady wife are both likely thinking of her approach.
     
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    Asha: "You know what they say, 'once you go Kraken, you never go back again'." 🐙
     
    @DragonParadox I would prefer to see this conversation with Paxter and his wife first.

    Seriously, it's super important that this marriage alliance goes through. It would make the Iron Islands transformation mostly self-sustaining, they would have literally all the trade partners and investors that they could hope for.
     
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    [X] Take Asha to the Arbor and move on


    [X] Receive a report (Interlude series)
    -[X] From Ghoyan Drohe

    Let's not intervene in this. It's really her business.

    I'd rather see something else than the Reach. Literally anything.

    Edit: Please not the next pack of irrelevant nobles.
     
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