A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
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Hmm, a curious disadvantage for our Eastern counterparts.
Kami being fallible is not necessarily a problem but the cultural perception otherwise kinda makes this like some of the worst aspects of a noble class on steroids.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Well the thing is, culturally, mianzi or 'face' has more to do with collective interests and opinions than it does with individual perception.
Meaning it's less about how important the Kami feel their perceptions are upheld, than it is that the collective perception on the concepts of honor, rights and respect is reflected by the unconscious (for the Kami) and conscious (for everyone else) bias that everyone living in that society has.
So it doesn't matter if some young master is an arrogant asshole who doesn't give two shits if thousands are killed in famines and plagues and war, if they act in all of the ways that the culture perceives as giving face to others and fulfilling their obligations of filial piety. As long as no one can judge based on action or inaction to deviate from that sort of 'character'. If he is acting subtly to make a bunch of people miserable and generally being an asshole as he makes his way in the world, that doesn't matter so long as the perception of their character doesn't change.
Granted, and keep in mind, this is a sort of chimeric concept that is pursued by everyone with differing opinions, making contractual exchanges all-but-impossible. You can gain and lose face in the same encounter. But conversely, you could also do something like say, fuck up an entire military campaign, yet successfully fob off the perceived failure for it on someone else. So long as enough people agree that's how it went down, more and more people are likely to parrot the story that way because it's already perceived in such a fashion.
If, by that logic, the perception of legitimacy matters more than the actual legalism of the matter, we can assume that as having been part of the reigning dynasty who's held the throne for centuries and is seated in the previous capital, a plurality of subjects in Pol Qo's territory aren't greatly convinced that Bu Gai isn't in fact the Son of Heaven, or the reasonings for maintaining their allegiance in him don't enmesh well enough with the idea that the divine mandate is with him as opposed to the Azure Emperor (naked self-interest).
So in a way they are kind of similarly troublesome as the Fey, it's all just framed based on the local biases of the people and no more difficult to accept the 'infallible logic of the Kami' because if the Kami are wrong then your family for untold generations has all of the collective weight passed down to you of their transgressions in assuming the wrong thing, too. You are obligated to defend their decision making, with much of it presumably based around appeasing the spirits of the land and paying homage to the Emperor who is backed by them.
With the Fey, some would argue the mythology is that they are tricksters who give people an advantage or place in a story. With Kami, it's like they just occupy a place on the totem pole. Different metaphysical logic, but they both fit in well with the prevailing culture.
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I agree with the above but therein lies the problem, Fey are questioned as a matter of course. Kami are unquestionable.
And while we have aspects of that in the form of nobility we have many more tools and much more cultural leeway to manage these problems in our nobility than it seems anyone in Yi-Ti does to manage the general population of Kami.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@Deliste The Kami aren't actual rulers though. They basically are the refs. They lay down the rules based on the collective opinion of all of the people but they don't interefere within that framework, and to an extent even allow you to deviate from it, they just support the person acting within it and may or may not support the deviant (as shown, Pol Qo is supported by some mages who the spirits appear to cooperate with on some level, even if some lawyering is required to make them do something, presumably for the people rather than for Pol Qo).
It's the same idea as the Fey Narrative. People can change and manipulate this, it can slowly become something else over time, and an important part is the Kami only lend you legitimacy, they do not actually pass down laws and to an extent, the people have more control over how this shifts over time as the Emperor can pass down laws and his subordinates are responsible for how they are carried out.
In times of great turmoil when this symbiotic relationship breaks down more, it causes no more problematic a situation than it does for the Fey who's story conflicts with their own existing narrative.
And remember what I said earlier. While it is true that the Kami might directly aid the Son of Heaven, that doesn't preclude doing something that would make all of his secessionist problems disappear. If destroying an army would be required to deal with something, the price for that may be something that he isn't actually capable of paying, and similarly, he could not do this if it was perceived that this action would harm the land and the people in it more than help them. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, since you won't have Kami doing things specifically to fuck with your rule or make you look like you're illegitimate, at least as far it is perceived by others, but neither will they say, destroy a city with all your enemies in it while you chill out in your fancy palace thousands of miles away.
It's the same idea as the Fey Narrative. People can change and manipulate this, it can slowly become something else over time, and an important part is the Kami only lend you legitimacy, they do not actually pass down laws and to an extent, the people have more control over how this shifts over time as the Emperor can pass down laws and his subordinates are responsible for how they are carried out.
In times of great turmoil when this symbiotic relationship breaks down more, it causes no more problematic a situation than it does for the Fey who's story conflicts with their own existing narrative.
And remember what I said earlier. While it is true that the Kami might directly aid the Son of Heaven, that doesn't preclude doing something that would make all of his secessionist problems disappear. If destroying an army would be required to deal with something, the price for that may be something that he isn't actually capable of paying, and similarly, he could not do this if it was perceived that this action would harm the land and the people in it more than help them. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, since you won't have Kami doing things specifically to fuck with your rule or make you look like you're illegitimate, at least as far it is perceived by others, but neither will they say, destroy a city with all your enemies in it while you chill out in your fancy palace thousands of miles away.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@Deliste I guess the TL;DR part of all of that is that for the Fey, they can act within the context of their narrative, but by and large that narrative makes all the people who form their opinions on it reactive to their actions.
The Kami on the other hand are not the active participant in the relationship, rather they are in fact the passive one. They will be reacting as the situation unfolds, and part of reacting may in fact be changing to suit the new collective bias towards certain matters. It may matter more that enough people believe something to be true than they do with the idea that something is right or wrong. In the end though this will inevitably not be a parasitic relationship.
The Kami have some other things that prevent them from becoming complete monsters, a lot of the vices that plague humanity specifically fuck them up, and they are all aware of this down to a metaphysical level not to become completely deviant themselves.
The important part is the delineation of the two, and the bridge between them, presumably the Son of Heaven at the time. The system works and guards against failure wrought by the system itself. If enough people sufffer under an injust system, or even a just one, it doesn't particularly matter if the Emperor at the time wants things to be that way. If he can't convince enough people "this is the way things should be", it largely self corrects as he risks allowing others to push him off his throne. He would, in effect, have "lost the mandate".
The Kami on the other hand are not the active participant in the relationship, rather they are in fact the passive one. They will be reacting as the situation unfolds, and part of reacting may in fact be changing to suit the new collective bias towards certain matters. It may matter more that enough people believe something to be true than they do with the idea that something is right or wrong. In the end though this will inevitably not be a parasitic relationship.
The Kami have some other things that prevent them from becoming complete monsters, a lot of the vices that plague humanity specifically fuck them up, and they are all aware of this down to a metaphysical level not to become completely deviant themselves.
The important part is the delineation of the two, and the bridge between them, presumably the Son of Heaven at the time. The system works and guards against failure wrought by the system itself. If enough people sufffer under an injust system, or even a just one, it doesn't particularly matter if the Emperor at the time wants things to be that way. If he can't convince enough people "this is the way things should be", it largely self corrects as he risks allowing others to push him off his throne. He would, in effect, have "lost the mandate".
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- Location
- Australia
Again I don't disagree with the majority of what you say but this is the key issue.
A ref is assumed to be unbiased, I'm not really comparing them to the Fey so much as any stakeholder with a voice of authority. Not that they are too powerful, or too flawed but their words carry weight the assumption of ageless wisdom when that's not the case.
Peasants treat Nobles this way to detriment.
Nobles treating Kami this way results similarly.
What we just (from my perspective, months for you guys) experienced was ref going "well it was a foul but I don't like you so play on".
You can't discount their impact on outcomes merely because it's "passive" in nature.
A biased ref will easily dictate the course of a game without ever touching the ball.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
The thing is, this leans in well with the grim nature of the setting. It's gritty still, for all its new High Fantasy trappings in comparison to the former Low Fantasy ones for the interregnum period.
It's not meant to be a perfect solution to any problem. It's basically old software still in use by new hardware, irregularly updated and borderline vaporware due to how fucked up the metaphysics are.
But it can still change, and things can still get better. Basically, the setting is Dark Fantasy, it is not Grimdark. DP specifically cites a lack of interest in that. Everything has a upbeat hopeful bent from a certain perspective, some might even say that the prevailing situation is so grim that the Legions of Baator coming in and fucking up your enemy and giving you some semblance of order is more upbeat than literally living in caves avoiding the Voidspawn and Mindflayer collective in the area. There's some horror to go along with that, but you were literally beyond all hope before.
At the end of the day, as technology improves, as civics and social science becomes more developed, this relationship could in fact change to account for a lot of the little failures that add up and sum into a form like the deaths or violation of perceived (from our, the readers', perspective) rights of the people living in the setting. Time marches on, and things can change for the better. The ending of slavery. The rebirth of dragons and a magitechnological revolution where previously much lore had been lost, and what there was before was guarded jealously is instead widely shared and understood.
And that still won't mean it changes from being Dark Fantasy. We live in a world of darkness ourselves, insignificant specks with all the wonders of the universe starting and stopping based on our own individual perceptions of new concepts, such as literature or science or philosophy.
Hell, we lose more rights than we gain on a regular basis in this age. One would start to envy a people who have gained more than they have lost with every year even if they know unbelievable sacrifices were necessary to make it happen.
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- Location
- Australia
Despair was not my theme of choice there, (enough of that IRL with the aforementioned rights erosion
) just noting an interesting hurdle I'm glad we don't have to face as directly and immediately as the east does.Though as I said this was months ago for you guys, I wouldn't be surprised if you already have found a Kami willing to work with us to take benevolent advantage of that cultural trust.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Technically we have encountered some like that who had no problems assisting us, specifically because of the mentioned perception that aiding us would help the people, so there was no conflict of interest involved there for the Kami in question.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We've yet to find a Divine Bureaucracy equivalent, but we did find an adorable small Fire-Tender Spirit that's more than happy to help us.
- Location
- Australia
As expected, for us they are a resource, the same way we treat useful Nobles.
The moral of the story being you better be damn sure before you hold something as sacrosanct.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I mean to us modern people, what we have learned is that truth and fact is subjective. It's just that the world is formed of societies who have literally grown more monolithic and sluggish in governance compared to the states which were crafted top-down as a person directing a machine with different, but interconnected parts.
It's instead like a bunch of machines working together and most of the time you might run into a situation where someone has taken control of one machine, yet if they are a raving lunatic driving around mowing people down with the machine, they are just a raving lunatic rather than Jesus Christ.
And on the other hand, you get situations like our own where absurdist satire has a more positive outlook than reported statements of fact... or 'fact'.
Living in a society where your young King not only values your lives if you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, but will in fact move literal mountains to ensure you can continue living in peace and in prosperity under those strictures, sounds fantastic by any metric. Leaders who actually are obligate by more than pieces of paper or the words of dead men to treat you like you are more than simply a number, that even in a society of untold millions your part in the "collective voice" is always exercised and subtly pressuring them to some extant, rather than ignored because legitimacy does not have any arbitrator or referee forcing people IRL to behave a certain way?
There's a lot of nicer and more air-brushed things in this quest's setting that tend to go ignored because of all the bad stuff looming in the distance and background, but on the other hand there is also a lot of karmic relief for the supposedly insignificant peons who were just under constant pressure to avoid notice from their rulers before.
- Location
- Australia
Ahh the self-protecting, self-perpetuating bureaucracy of government.
We're closer than we think to an IRL Administrative Entity, it's just a lot dumber and corrupt than we'd like.
As for modern day Benevolent Big Men, well they exist in the minds of many people.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Yeah, Plato would find an audience in Planetos, though a lot of the commentary would have more basis in reality rather than as a topic of discussion about how chimeric that concept actually is.
Canon Omake: Songs of the Goldenheart
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Songs of the Goldenheart
Seventeenth Day of the First Month 294 AC
Trepidation shook her down to her roots, her Heart thrumming with furious anticipation and a strange admixture of dread and hope, the currents of the world seeming to swirl and froth beneath her, no longer pliant and quiescent as they had been through the long ages. It was as though the grave of Rowan Gold-Tree recognized the importance of what approached, but was that the wind of change which beckoned forth despair and sorrow? Or of reunions, the spring of youth and glad tidings?
She had to know.
Elswyth stepped forth, out of the shade, summer fire and goldenrod reflecting its light, beams dancing through the boughs with the dying rays cast from the astral body. For a single moment, for a single shining instant the drumming stopped, her Heart went still, every branch and leaf suspended in time, and it was only then, gazing upon a face so uncannily similar to Rowan's granddaughter, that Elswyth knew for sure. She had never unlearned joy or sagacity, but there had been some notion that Spring may never come again, something anyone familiar with the utter darkness flowing south on the high winds would be. Yet the smile that bloomed upon Elswyth's face was enough to shock even her court gathered in the distance, almost too nervous to stand in her presence until the final hour when she might know if it would indeed be rage or relief that would fill the empty void at last.
"Welcome home, young one," she breathed softly, and she felt wet in the face, something the girl mirrored as she touched her own eyes and came back with silent tears. "Let none tarnish the joy of kin thought lost, returned to nest, and always will you be welcome here, thus I proclaim as Queen of the Wildwood and Lady of Prosperity, be welcome and have no need to fear!"
"Thank you," came the reply, not tremulous but filled with soft wonder. It was with immense relief that the girl did not respond with fear, for Elswyth had shown no restraint in her joy and even the smallest expression of emotion at that time could bury a mortal soul under the weight of her deepest need. Now that she had opened herself to the notion of reconciliation, she did not wish to be robbed of a single moment bent toward that task with the full force of her Legend. If there were no people to share it with, Prosperity meant nothing, and if mortals feared or hated the Wilds enough, they might also cut it down and burn it away, as the grave of her Mother stood in testimony toward.
Elswyth listened carefully to the girl's fears and even closer to their interests. What she could not make much of due to the course of the discussion and the nature of the dilemmas both were faced with when matters of faith and the bending of mortal will toward one solution or another came to a head, she then graciously asked a reprieve from one to ponder the notion further and offered comfort in other matters of the heart that she herself closely shared, more than Elinor Rowan could ever know, more than anyone in the wide world could for it was her tale that was spinning forth into a new thread in that very moment.
"You are my song now," Elswyth whispered as she watched Elinor leave her glade, to return to hearth and home for the moment. "Let it be sung far and wide when the time comes again."
***
He had asked once a lord of the fey to slake his personal, if morbid, curiosity the truth of the rumors, that the Dragon King had journeyed far and wide and gained unexpected knowledge and prescient wisdom, then bent his likely immeasurable will, given the nature of mages on the order of the Ninth Circle, by the reckoning of both the magical parchments passed around the Seven Kingdoms and the estimations of that horned lord, toward one task.
Of his mother, Queen Rhaella, Gods keep her--or, he suppose, return her. The Gods hadn't kept a very good watch on her in life, he thought then, immediately startled by the sharp bitterness of the notion when he came to understand the sheer gulf between him and a solution to a daughter missing or dead.
He would need to be strong enough himself to overturn the will of the Gods in matters of life or death to even stand a chance. What else could one name that but the surest of madness? What other mad notions had passed through their head when they raised a kingdom of pirates and brigands and thought, 'I suppose it's a decent time to end slavery, then'?
So the boy knew about his daughter, how could he not when she had come to his kingdom herself, how convenient that was and never thought to note her survival when it was the greatest bargaining chip he could have imagined over his head. Then... returned her, with a bevy of mystical companions and a bag full of gold and a smile on her face, no words of pledges on her lips, not even once? Even if she had not lied about what she had seen, he would have to be an idiot not to see how unshakable one's confidence would have to be to do that.
Still. He was not one to cast a pall about occasions joyous such as this, part of him wished to count his blessings and think that his daughter was returned to him out of the goodness of the exiled Prince who would count himself King and then count one more banner, likely among a sea of others.
He would if asked in the press, Mathis realized with a start. With the worry and sorrow that weighed on him, he had hedged out what little was left between attending to the needs of his fief and vowing silent vengeance for those who had taken her away one way or another, too much at once to really ponder the political realities he would soon be faced with.
Mathis Rowan wanted more than anything an explanation for why his daughter had been chosen, by the Gods or by Dragons or by the cruel whims of fate itself, why he could not have been put under trial to see what the world had in store for his House and not her, but he could not as that was, quite apparent by now, not the way of the world. All at once, he realized not even their children were exempt from fulfilling some grand purpose or destiny, whatever it may be.
"Father?" Elinor's voice was filled with worry as the lines of his weathered face deepened, he had more gray hairs than when she had last seen him two years ago, he was slower to smile, but never forgot to do so when his attention was pulled back to her, not even a single moment would he forget.
"Daughter mine," he said softly, clutching her hand tightly, "Tell me one thing. Will he save us, or damn us?" All the new foes he had heard about, ones lurking in the wilds and in the far reaches of the world, seeming to prey on all men, both the virtuous and the sinner alike, making no distinction by sound judgement who was guilty and who was not...
One might come to realize sooner or later that the Gods might not be the right answer for every occasion, not when so many things were providing answers of their own, none of them a comfort for the faint of heart.
She pondered the question long and hard, before replying at last, "He will help us learn how to save ourselves."
That was a comfort. Mathis Rowan was not faint of heart.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Teach a man to fish...
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
Then go with plan B, which is that they have to have an actual door, arrange it like a modern festival(except without charging admission at the door) we craft them some cloth walls, tent buildings, and easily put up and taken down furniture and stages, and they set up on an empty field, right outside the village or town, all is invited, but the magic stay inside the festival area, so as long as you don't enter their party town, you wont be effected.
It has to be opt in, in some way, that way can either take the form of needing a token to participate, or the form of the festival being held somewhere, people actively have to go to.
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Vote closed.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
"Slay the monsters threatening to overrun a lord's holdings and he'll rest easy for a fortnight, teach the man to slay those monsters himself and he'll swear fealty to the Dragon King because then he'll know what kind of monsters lurk beyond the bounds of his lands."
Or something to that effect. 🤠
Great character piece for both Elswyth and Mathis, dude. For a millennia old creature of the Fey, Elswyth still has an air of humanity about her, and Mathis, despite being wary of his sudden good fortune and the political ramifications of it, isn't willing to throw it all away due to suspicion and fear like a lot of Westerosi lords might have.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Mathis isn't anyone's fool... but given his canon characterization, he was likely to be supportive or at least open to the idea of a Restoration. He thought Robert Baratheon climbing to the Iron Throne over the bodies of Elia Martell and her children to be savagery too sick to stomach in a crowd of people absolutely unbothered by it in comparison. Yeah, I think he is more concerned with the idea that Viserys is too good to be true and has some kind of angle, but even that would be better than the current situation where Tywin Lannister basically runs the show, and no one really respects Tywin enough if butchery is all he can rely on to keep people in line. The alternative would be to follow Mace Tyrell, which was one thing when it was about putting another King on the Iron Throne, but is something else entirely when it comes to giving weird and seemingly untouchable strangers undue control over the Reach.
I mean... why should Viserys be literally the first and only person to see where this was heading, if not the whole picture of the totality of just how much the Tyrells were selling the Reach off? Have one conversation with a decently powerful Feylord. They are charismatic and powerful enough that a conversation between one and the average high lord is like the difference between every thematically appropriate paragon in the setting rolled up into one package outshining you in nearly every respect. It is obvious your influence would wane and maybe even evaporate in that situation.
Why would anyone cooperate with that would of course vary, but given when we discovered it, and even up to now, the plot still being in its infancy, it likely has a lot to do with the fact that they never expected cooperation from the people who had the most to lose (Hightowers, Tarlys, Rowans, Redwynes and Florents) and expected to cow or replace them entirely.
I mean the Tyrells hung onto Highgarden through generations because of Targaryen backing for a century and a half, explicitly, coupled with clever brinksmanship and marriages for the other hundred and fifty. It is honestly no surprise whatsoever that the entire focus of the Tyrell sub-pot in canon and here has a lot to do with desperation to gain legitimacy. Because the unrest caused by both canon events and ASWaH's magic reawakening and Fey running around is making it difficult to exert their influence. In the face of waning influence, the multiple Houses with higher claims to their seat and an increasingly weak looking King does not bode well for them.
I count it vanishingly unlikely that Randyll Tarly, with all the tact of a blade in the ribcage, swore fealty to Viserys because he asked nicely, was the legitimate King, or even simply because he was the strongest claimant. He did it because the Tarlys, like every other High Lord in the Reach, is in serious danger of being rendered irrelevant. One conversation. It takes one conversation with a powerful fey for this to become fairly obvious.
The fact that this doesn't come up in conversation when we're talking to Reacher Lords shows that either people are idiots (it's Westeros, so... yeah, you can just sum up every hypothetical 'but why tho' happening in this place with 'it's Westeros' and call it a day) or they really do not trust us any more than they do their overlords, they're just reasonably certain that we prefer they retain control over the much more difficult to prosecute Fey. Any concessions worth making to us afterwards can at least potentially be discussed rather than overwritten out of hand, especially since we haven't developed a reputation for particularly disliking diplomacy.
I mean... why should Viserys be literally the first and only person to see where this was heading, if not the whole picture of the totality of just how much the Tyrells were selling the Reach off? Have one conversation with a decently powerful Feylord. They are charismatic and powerful enough that a conversation between one and the average high lord is like the difference between every thematically appropriate paragon in the setting rolled up into one package outshining you in nearly every respect. It is obvious your influence would wane and maybe even evaporate in that situation.
Why would anyone cooperate with that would of course vary, but given when we discovered it, and even up to now, the plot still being in its infancy, it likely has a lot to do with the fact that they never expected cooperation from the people who had the most to lose (Hightowers, Tarlys, Rowans, Redwynes and Florents) and expected to cow or replace them entirely.
I mean the Tyrells hung onto Highgarden through generations because of Targaryen backing for a century and a half, explicitly, coupled with clever brinksmanship and marriages for the other hundred and fifty. It is honestly no surprise whatsoever that the entire focus of the Tyrell sub-pot in canon and here has a lot to do with desperation to gain legitimacy. Because the unrest caused by both canon events and ASWaH's magic reawakening and Fey running around is making it difficult to exert their influence. In the face of waning influence, the multiple Houses with higher claims to their seat and an increasingly weak looking King does not bode well for them.
I count it vanishingly unlikely that Randyll Tarly, with all the tact of a blade in the ribcage, swore fealty to Viserys because he asked nicely, was the legitimate King, or even simply because he was the strongest claimant. He did it because the Tarlys, like every other High Lord in the Reach, is in serious danger of being rendered irrelevant. One conversation. It takes one conversation with a powerful fey for this to become fairly obvious.
The fact that this doesn't come up in conversation when we're talking to Reacher Lords shows that either people are idiots (it's Westeros, so... yeah, you can just sum up every hypothetical 'but why tho' happening in this place with 'it's Westeros' and call it a day) or they really do not trust us any more than they do their overlords, they're just reasonably certain that we prefer they retain control over the much more difficult to prosecute Fey. Any concessions worth making to us afterwards can at least potentially be discussed rather than overwritten out of hand, especially since we haven't developed a reputation for particularly disliking diplomacy.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
As an aside, and a thought that I feel Viserys should share with someone at some point @DragonParadox, but paradoxically incest has done more over the centuries to keep House Targaryen's dynastic identity coherent and their rule stable than it has hindered it. Consider that the war over the matter of incest were so thoroughly bloody and lopsided out of the Faith's favor, and literally no one was willing to fight a war over it specifically rather than merely as a consequence of it. It became more taboo to openly grumble over it than it was for the Targaryens to practice it.
So in a way, the Tyrells and Lannisters game of trying to assimilate the Royal House is basically a downhill spiral which can only result in endless war, inter-generational conflict and eventual collapse, and just about any conflict which unfolded after the Faith Militant uprising had everything to do with marriages which were non-incestuous. Maegor (to think if he had just married Rhaena to start and then got the murdering out of the way right off the bat), Viserys I (Aemma had Targ blood! IT COUNTS! Alicent doesn't!), Daeron II. I could go on, @DragonParadox! I could go on and on!
I legitimately want to see Viserys make an argument that incest is responsible for three centuries of peace and stability. It has done more for both the P word and the S word than pretty much any dynastic alliance that wasn't with some minor, irrelevant Lord, also likely in the wake of a major war (Aegon III and Velaryon, Aegon V and Blackwood).
I REST MY CASE.
Viserys: "You tell it!" *micdrop* 😎
So in a way, the Tyrells and Lannisters game of trying to assimilate the Royal House is basically a downhill spiral which can only result in endless war, inter-generational conflict and eventual collapse, and just about any conflict which unfolded after the Faith Militant uprising had everything to do with marriages which were non-incestuous. Maegor (to think if he had just married Rhaena to start and then got the murdering out of the way right off the bat), Viserys I (Aemma had Targ blood! IT COUNTS! Alicent doesn't!), Daeron II. I could go on, @DragonParadox! I could go on and on!
I legitimately want to see Viserys make an argument that incest is responsible for three centuries of peace and stability. It has done more for both the P word and the S word than pretty much any dynastic alliance that wasn't with some minor, irrelevant Lord, also likely in the wake of a major war (Aegon III and Velaryon, Aegon V and Blackwood).
I REST MY CASE.
Viserys: "You tell it!" *micdrop* 😎
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