I feel the other are largely dependant on being able to twist and corrupt others to their side to recruit. Rather than actually being able to churn out living void creatures en mass.

Since that's apparently? What they did with winter.

I think the distinction Qby needs to discover is... Hm. I think the other just prefer the creatures sworn to them to be undead. Did they create it? And are they the best/only source of it?

Well... We don't know what the other are, but positive energy fueled undead seems like something they wouldn't find appealing.
 
@Goldfish, here's a reworked proposal to take out Mighty.

Advanced Dire Feral Flame Drake

Total CR is 6, so it's even cheaper than the previous version.

Dire's actually really nice in terms of ability score improvement. We could take out Advanced to make it cheaper even than this, but it's a good buff for relatively low cost.
Yeah, that's much more reasonable, IMO.
@Goldfish would a Great Caretaker with the right lagers SLA load out be worth adding to the Gogossos Defense Force?

I'm thinking replace some of the spells with stuff like Sirocco instead of Transmute Metal to Wood and Return to Nature instead of Reincarnate. And the Dwarven Hatred changed to Undead or Winter Hatred.

And maybe one for the Forge in Lys and the Feywild one as well. I mean the Tree of the Dawn age has a Zomok. The Forges should have something of around that level too.
Huh, that's pretty neat. At CR 15t's well beyond our ability to create, though, unless the OG intervene directly. The Fungal Forge is still capped at CR 10 and I don't think the Flesh Forge works on plants. Definitely something to keep in mind for when we upgrade the Fungal Forge, though.
...how much forces we have on Toad Isle, again?
We havent been keeping it a secret, and with it being a font of MKs power, illithids are all but guaranteed to strike there.

Also, @Goldfish, shall we inform Gith that we have a way to cleanse Abberant corruption, via said Holy Waters?
They might just find it useful, I have little doubt that Illithids employ mind/body-warping weapons on Nirvana.
I don't think I'm the only one who kinda forgot about Toad Isle... :oops:

We need to establish a presence there for sure. And if we tell the Githzerai, they might be interested in helping guard the place. It might help to positively influence them toward the Merling King, too.
@Goldfish could we design a plant creature, specifically for gathering corpses in hazardous locations, I'm thinking something with corruption resistance, a shrink item Spell like ability, and a Hoard gullet spell like ability, they should be fast not too big and with a snakes ability to unhinge their jaws, so they can swallow the corpses after they have shrunken them, then they zip across the battlefield, gathering up the bodies for delivery to the Fungus Forge.

Because as DP pointed out, gathering corpses can be quite dangerous, and if you're doing guerilla combat, then it has to be done quickly before enemy forces arrive, so a corpse gathering creature, could increase our allies corpse gathering rate quite a bit.

I'm thinking we hand these out with no down payment, but 20% of the corpses gathered by them go to us, until they have given us 2 times the cost of making the corpse gatherer, at which point 100% of the corpses gathered, belong to whoever owns the corpse gatherer.
We could do it, but it's kinda ghoulish from the POV of others, don't you think? This is one of those things where you need to know the beliefs and cultural practices of your target audience.

I wouldn't be opposed to it, though, so long as they are used sensibly. Write something up and I'll help polish it before running it by DP.
What the actual fuck is that template?

I feel like +10 Natural Armor alone should justify more than +1CR. How the the hell is this supposed to be balanced? If I stick this template on a Treant and throw the resulting creature at my average level 8 party they're going to get absolutely slaughtered. Unless you have massive cc or debuff spells you just flat out can't do anything against this monstrosity.
What @Azel said, basically. Not all templates are created equally and Bladeleaf is one of those which can make a pretty significant impact. Increasing a creature's AC by +10 is easy with a suit of enchanted fullplate armor. Hell, full WBL appropriate gear is only considered enough in game terms to increase a PC's CR +1, and that includes things like magic armor and weapons, stat boosters, etc. This isn't much different.

As strong as Bladeleaf is, though, it's also rather straight forward and easy to plan around. A lot of D&D is about knowing your enemy and preparing adequately to deal with them. The right combination of spells and items would allow an appropriately leveled and geared group to handle a Blaeleaf creature, though that's only true if there is some degree of moderation being used. A dungeon filled with mid-tier Bladeleaf creatures, for example, would be difficult for even a powerful group to deal with due to simple attrition.
Ah, but here is your problem. You assume someone without magic matters in D&D.

There are quite a few templates, builds, etc. around that make something entirely invulnerable to level appropriate martial classes while adding next to no defense against casters.
It really does suck to be a muggle on a fantasy magic death world.
 
Ah, but here is your problem. You assume someone without magic matters in D&D.

There are quite a few templates, builds, etc. around that make something entirely invulnerable to level appropriate martial classes while adding next to no defense against casters.

Ain't that the truth. And even if you do increase Willsaves or give your creatures SR, the casters can simply use spells that don't allow saves and couple that with Spell Penetration and Assay Spell Resistance. So either I give all my creatures insane SR or I might as well not bother. Still, I generally try to do my best as a DM to make sure everybody feels relevant. Even if that means that my Fighter get insanely good homebrewed items or every second boss fight happens inside an Antimagic field. Thankfully my usual players aren't one fourth the powergames that populate this thread or even that would probably be useless. :V

I actively try to avoid fights than can only be reasonably overcome if you've access to some very specific spells so I really don't think I'm ever gonna use that template unaltered. I mean, the Swarm of Leaf Blades is a cool idea. Why does it need to come combined with insane boni to AC, DR, Fast Healing and Immunity to 3 types of energy damage?

Anyway, to get back on topic:

[X] Goldfish
 
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I actively try to avoid fights than can only be reasonably overcome if you've access to some very specific spells so I really don't think I'm ever gonna use that template unaltered. I mean, the Swarm of Leaf Blades is a cool idea. Why does it need to come combined with insane boni to AC, DR, Fast Healing and Immunity to 3 types of energy damage?
You can always decide to only use part of the template or modify it otherwise.

Personally, I simply don't see much reason for all those defensive buffs in the template itself.
 
You can always decide to only use part of the template or modify it otherwise.

Personally, I simply don't see much reason for all those defensive buffs in the template itself.
It wouldn't bother me any if the immunity to fire, cold, and electricity were removed from the template, to be honest. It would still be a very good CR +1 template.
 
We could do it, but it's kinda ghoulish from the POV of others, don't you think? This is one of those things where you need to know the beliefs and cultural practices of your target audience.

I wouldn't be opposed to it, though, so long as they are used sensibly. Write something up and I'll help polish it before running it by DP.
It's only meant to gather the bodies of enemy combatants unless otherwise specified, and while it technically swallow them, it's not eating them, it's putting them in a storage place for later retrieval, so I don't see many of our allies being against them.

The Githzerai might not want them gathering their own dead, but I don't think they would have anything against, them gathering the bodies of the Illithid and their slaves.

But I unfortunately still don't know how to design a creature, I can come up with ideas for what creatures to design, but I don't know how to design them.

I do think a Small Viper would make an excellent base to design the creature on, it's a CR½ 1HD creature, that's basically built to stay hidden, and move quickly across difficult terrain, all it need is to be converted to a plant creature, and have Shrink item and Hoard gullet abilities added to itself, and you have a very cheap creature, that can gather corpses for us, with how cheap they are, we don't even have to add more than rudimentary anti-far realm measures on them, because it's no big deal, if one of them occasionally mutate a bit.

A Tiny Viper would be even better, they have a higher hide check, and if the corpse gatherers are discovered they're dead whether they have 1HD or ¼HD, but I'm not sure if a ¼HD base creature, can have 2 spell like abilities.

Add slightly bigger snakes to gather magical items(since without being able to shrink them, some magic items will be too big for the small snakes) and we have an effective means of looting the battlefield.

They will of course have to be trained to know how to retreat, but we can just train them to do that, at the sound of a horn signalling retreat, or for when they're part of a stealth mission, we can have them retreat when they smell a certain smell, released by something their handler carries.

But really I don't think we will run into much in the way of cultural problems, sure it's slightly ghoulish to have corpses swallowed by snakes, but I think most people will still prefer to have their corpse recovered, instead of left on the battlefield to rot or be used by the enemy, it's not like the snakes deliver the corpses right to the Forge, they simply retrieve them from the battlefield, our allies still get to decide what happen to them from thereon.
 
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Finalized plan. Just a heads up, I removed the immunity to cold, fire, and electricity from the creatures I made and would like to consider them no longer a part of the Bladeleaf template. It's only a +1 CR template, so having those immunities on top of all the other stuff was somewhat excessive. Thanks, @UmeII for calling more attention to that.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Nov 6, 2019 at 7:07 AM, finished with 147 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] Although the possibilities are nearly limitless, depending on the Githerzai's needs, we believe the following may be suitable for Rondar's first request:
    -[X] Razorspore Hippogriff (Fungal Bladeleaf Hippogriff) - CR 4 (600 IM each)
    --[X] A sturdy, agile flying mount that can shrug off many forms of attack, heal from almost any non-fatal wound, and simply ignores the Mind-Affecting powers so often employed by the Deep Ones, Razorspore Hippogriffs are capable melee combatants but are also able to engage enemies at fairly long range with their Bladeleaf Swarms and can even employ a poisonous spore breath weapon at close range.
    -[X] Razorleaf Hippogriff (Greenbound Bladeleaf Hippogriff) - CR 5 (900 IM each)
    --[X] Razorleaf Hippogriffs are much like the Razorspore Hippogriff, but they are even more resilient, slightly faster and stronger, and have access to a small handful of useful spell-like abilities.
    -[X] Razortail Ankylosaurus (Dire Greenbound Bladeleaf* Ankylosaurus) - CR 10 (4,800 IM each)
    --[X] Living behemoths, each massive Razortail Ankylosaurus is capable of absorbing and dealing a huge amount of punishment. Not only can they trample their foes into the ground and slash them to bloody ribbons with their razorleaf studded armor, they can also employ the unique magic focused into their bony tails to launch long-range razorleaf attacks capable of shredding all but the most resilient of foes.
    -[X] NOTE: Assuming no one has a problem with it, I've removed the Immunity to Cold, Fire, and Electricity from the creatures I cooked up using the Bladeleaf Creature template. The immunities are nice, of course, but they're a bit much for a +1 CR template.
    -[X] We would be willing to trade our Forge services to offset the cost of our latest commissions.
 
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Huh, just now as I'm sitting in traffic, I realized I made the Ankylosaurus CR 11 by mistake. Gonna have to fix that. I'll swap in Fungal in place of Green bound when I get to work.
 
Can you reduce the Immunities to Resistance 10 or something without taking them out? Seems more appropriate. Well you can take out fire fully but cold and electricity seem justifiable for a Plant creature.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Nov 6, 2019 at 8:04 AM, finished with 155 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Although the possibilities are nearly limitless, depending on the Githerzai's needs, we believe the following may be suitable for Rondar's first request:
    -[X] Razorspore Hippogriff (Fungal Bladeleaf Hippogriff) - CR 4 (600 IM each)
    --[X] A sturdy, agile flying mount that can shrug off many forms of attack, heal from almost any non-fatal wound, and simply ignores the Mind-Affecting powers so often employed by the Deep Ones, Razorspore Hippogriffs are capable melee combatants but are also able to engage enemies at fairly long range with their Bladeleaf Swarms and can even employ a poisonous spore breath weapon at close range.
    -[X] Razorleaf Hippogriff (Greenbound Bladeleaf Hippogriff) - CR 5 (900 IM each)
    --[X] Razorleaf Hippogriffs are much like the Razorspore Hippogriff, but they are even more resilient, slightly faster and stronger, and have access to a small handful of useful spell-like abilities.
    -[X] Razortail Ankylosaurus (Dire Fungal Bladeleaf* Ankylosaurus) - CR 10 (4,800 IM each)
    --[X] Living behemoths, each massive Razortail Ankylosaurus is capable of absorbing and dealing a huge amount of punishment. Not only can they trample their foes into the ground and slash them to bloody ribbons with their razorleaf studded armor, they can also employ the unique magic focused into their bony tails to launch long-range razorleaf attacks capable of shredding all but the most resilient of foes.
    -[X] NOTE: Assuming no one has a problem with it, I've removed the Immunity to Cold, Fire, and Electricity from the creatures I cooked up using the Bladeleaf Creature template. The immunities are nice, of course, but they're a bit much for a +1 CR template.
    -[X] We would be willing to trade our Forge services to offset the cost of our latest commissions.
 
Ok I think I have a good idea, for what would be a good corpse gatherer, a fungoid sorcerer-creature viper I just need a way to add the ability to cast Shrink object to them.

Fungoid let them communicate with each other, making sure that if they keep getting killed in 1 area of the battlefield the rest will stay away, and meaning that you can call them all back by sending the retreat signal to one of them.

Sorceror-creature let them cast Hoard gullet, I don't know what their cantrip should be, but Hoard gullet is what's important anyway.

And Vipers are naturals at staying hidden, and they're extremely cheap to make.

So all in all my only problem is, I have no idea how to teach them Shrink item, increasing them in HD until they can learn it as a Sorceror-creature isn't a good plan, that would compromise their status as expendable, as they would then cost far more to make.

They should be made with instincts that make them gather corpses, and with a return signal that make them return to their handler.
 
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I think we should consider investigating what the Gith have going for automated reality stabilators while we're here. It shouldn't take too long, and if there's a niche we could fill with things like dedicated constant perinarch creatures/items we could gain a lot.

It'd be a valuable trade item that'd free people up from shoring up their territory to kill things for us, but if they've covered it in a way we can't expand on it's not worth our time to develop.

On the immunity thing, I think we should consider leaving it in. In most campaigns you guys would be right, but this one is already high power.

In this specific context the blade leaf creatures are going to be hilariously outgunned fighting devils and deep ones that will almost certainly have at least something to deal with them.

The meaning of game balance changes when things like "suddenly ulitharids" and "surprise bone devil kill squad" are on the encounter table.
 
I think we should consider investigating what the Gith have going for automated reality stabilators while we're here. It shouldn't take too long, and if there's a niche we could fill with things like dedicated constant perinarch creatures/items we could gain a lot.

It'd be a valuable trade item that'd free people up from shoring up their territory to kill things for us, but if they've covered it in a way we can't expand on it's not worth our time to develop.

On the immunity thing, I think we should consider leaving it in. In most campaigns you guys would be right, but this one is already high power.

In this specific context the blade leaf creatures are going to be hilariously outgunned fighting devils and deep ones that will almost certainly have at least something to deal with them.

The meaning of game balance changes when things like "suddenly ulitharids" and "surprise bone devil kill squad" are on the encounter table.
If the templates were higher CR, it would make sense, but not for a +1 CR template. It already gives AC, Fast Healing, and DR for defensive stuff.

Most of what they buy will only be CR 4 or 5. Those can be useful in the right situations, but no one should expect them to be able to handle Devil kill squads and similar higher threat enemies.

I like the idea of some sort of Limbo-stabilizer, but those spells don't really have large enough areas of effect compared to the cost involved in producing them. We could probably mak more of a difference by buffing Viserys' Strength attribute and having him Plane Shift in gigantic blocks of stone and huge amounts of fertile soil. Matter brought to Limbo from the Material Plane doesn't revert to chaos without constant attention.
 
@tarrangar, your idea doesn't really work out. At most, and with a lot of squinting, a Tiny creature could swallow another Tiny creature, meaning a Shrink Item on a Large sized corpse would make it barely fit. However, you need a Caster Level of 12 to actually shrink something the size of a Large Creature with Shrink Object (2 cu. ft. per CL) and the CL of creatures is usually equal to their HD.

I did fiddle with some idea for a "transport" creature over the last few days though and it could also be used as a corpse gatherer. I can post that if you want, but it's a bit larger then Tiny and not a plant.
 
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