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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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TalonofAnathrax said:
wat.

Gods are a dime a dozen. A six year-old figured out you could just shop for them. Lanna could just pick one with a different vision of the Greater Good.
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The Seven also believe in the whole "Don't kill Kin" thing. Also this is a cultural idea. This is a notion older than the Garth Greenhand. People don't immediately escalate to family murder just because it is convenient. Sure gods are a dime in the dozen but when culture and the divine stand against an action you best not do it. Just because a six-year old freak (sorry Dany) figured it out doesnt mean shit. Shopping for gods is an opinion that exists in our Empire not the whole wide world.

Artemis1992 said:
Bloodraven got away with it and became champion to those same gods.
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In his defence the guy he killed started a legacy of civil war. At some point you have to put down family. Plus the Old Gods were desperate and even then he is still living a tortured existence so technically he is being punished. Even if it wasn't the intent.
 
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Oh can we do the sending plan. I really want to fuck qith the lanisters and we haven't done anything impulsive in a while.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
The Seven also believe in the whole "Don't kill Kin" thing. Also this is a cultural idea. This is a notion older than the Garth Greenhand. People don't immediately escalate to family murder just because it is convenient. Sure gods are a dime in the dozen but when culture and the divine stand against an action you best not do it. Just because a six-year old freak (sorry Dany) figured it out doesnt mean shit. Shopping for gods is an opinion that exists in our Empire not the whole wide world.
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Tywin dealt with Hell, and did a bad job of it. That's an execution-worthy crime right there.
 
..... I have an idea. A very very evil idea.


We dream walk into each of their dreams, have them dream of their brother/son being cast in chains and made to kill before they look and see them and beg for freedom and ask why they let it happen? How could they send him off to be enslaved and die at the hands of a man who sees him little more than a few bits of coin.

Go on to have him be forced towards them begging for forgiveness as he attacks them while shadowy golden haired men and women laugh led by tywin Lannister who watch with wicked glee.

Do this over a few nights and I expect even the father would be regretting his choice.


The mother and the son just might kill him but i expect if we arrive and present an alternative..... We might be able to have the heir and the lady in our pocket and leave the lord up to be manipulated.


Depending on how well we perform we might be able to make him try and call his son back out of guilt and when he is refused.... Well.... Another lord on our side.

EDIT: if we keep it consistent or make it a shared dream they might even believe it is a premonition which would add further credence to our words.
 
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DragonParadox said:
To be fair they are not just randomly killing peasants, they are killing peasants who dealt with the Deep Ones.

Also even if they were just killing random peasants for convenience they still could not be any worse than the literal fiends you hired.

Just to be clear I'm not trying to infuence you guys one way or another on the Lanna situation, just a reminder of what's bene happening from an IC perspective.
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To be clearer, I'm not implying that we're absolved of all sins or incapable of making mistakes, but recruiting fiends was not one of them. I said they were unworthy of compassion or mercy not because they were bad people who hurt peasants, but because they put their resources to use in a supremely unworthy manner.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that we did not exercise caution, care, and calculation and planned out our usage of the fiends we took in? That their skills were put to use in an unworthy or injust manner?

No. Obviously not. That's patently absurd an accusation. Our worst sins aren't lack of competence of reticence to uphold our obligations to our citizens or vassals.
 
Crake said:
To be clearer, I'm not implying that we're absolved of all sins or incapable of making mistakes, but recruiting fiends was not one of them. I said they were unworthy of compassion or mercy not because they were bad people who hurt peasants, but because they put their resources to use in a supremely unworthy manner.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that we did not exercise caution, care, and calculation and planned out our usage of the fiends we took in? That their skills were put to use in an unworthy or injust manner?

No. Obviously not. That's patently absurd an accusation. Our worst sins aren't lack of competence of reticence to uphold our obligations to our citizens or vassals.
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That's not the point I was making, more that whatever Lanna and Gerion's sins, they are unlikely to be worse than those of the fiends themselves, whom you hired.
 
DragonParadox said:
That's not the point I was making, more that whatever Lanna and Gerion's sins, they are unlikely to be worse than those of the fiends themselves, whom you hired.
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Eh, it is more of an IC bias that we have.

We simply hate them much more than the fiends because they hurt our family and dared to drive us from our rightful inheritance.

Call it the Red in us but in this case we are definitely holding a decently spiteful grudge.
 
DragonParadox said:
That's not the point I was making, more that whatever Lanna and Gerion's sins, they are unlikely to be worse than those of the fiends themselves, whom you hired.
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Maybe I'm not unbiased, probably a sign I should reevaluate.

But why is it so much easier to cast judgement on these idiots than say, Mereth or Leto, who have been more than helpful, but actually trustworthy of fulfilling their duties without problems?

I mean what you can say of Lanna and Gerion, even if they have done no worse than either of those two, they would not perform better. And the point of contention here is not how many bad things they have done, but how incompetent they are.

Actually to be honest my original point was never about morals, or even really ethics, but more the fact that they have done us harm in the past, AND committed the cardinal sin combination of obtaining power and authority and abused both like morons. So I'm not really sure why you brought up fiends in the first place. Mereth never abused what authority we granted her. She's done just fine with it.

Tl;Dr what is your point actually? I get it now, it's just it had nothing to do with anything I said.
 
Actually I am curious. Why are they going along with the Geas plan? Does Tywin have some leverage on them? Or do they simply not care about that? I really want to know now.
 
Crake said:
Anyone who knows by now we honor peace flag and guest right as much as any other oath would have done the sensible thing and approached us. They're in this to win this, or at least give it a try before throwing in the towel. The sheer, rank incompetence they've displayed in "defending Westeros" makes Lanna and Gerion about as trustworthy as snakes. Actually, less so, since I trust the Dornish to pour our wine even without the Crown to protect us from poison. Which is saying something about Targaryens and Dornish.
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From the interludes we have had with them they don't want to fight us, they're just not quite ready to actively work against Tywin, which do make sense, for all they know he's a total asshole, he's still Gerion's brother, setting him up to die would not be an easy choice.
TalonofAnathrax said:
Tywin dealt with Hell, and did a bad job of it. That's an execution-worthy crime right there.
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Tywin never dealt with hell, he just tried to send a message to hell by making a public spectacle out of executing Devils, which of course was an utterly wasted effort.
Crake said:
To be clearer, I'm not implying that we're absolved of all sins or incapable of making mistakes, but recruiting fiends was not one of them. I said they were unworthy of compassion or mercy not because they were bad people who hurt peasants, but because they put their resources to use in a supremely unworthy manner.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that we did not exercise caution, care, and calculation and planned out our usage of the fiends we took in? That their skills were put to use in an unworthy or injust manner?

No. Obviously not. That's patently absurd an accusation. Our worst sins aren't lack of competence of reticence to uphold our obligations to our citizens or vassals.
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I wouldn't say the way they used their resources was utterly unworthy, they could have done a good deal better yes, but they have been keeping a lid on the Westerlands, and that's what they aim to protect, not all the Seven Kingdoms.
Crake said:
Actually to be honest my original point was never about morals, or even really ethics, but more the fact that they have done us harm in the past, AND committed the cardinal sin combination of obtaining power and authority and abused both like morons. So I'm not really sure why you brought up fiends in the first place. Mereth never abused what authority we granted her. She's done just fine with it.
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How exactly have they been abusing their authority? The Peasant killing were overly harsh yes, but technically legally right under our laws, those Peasants did make deals with the Illithids, so while there's mitigating circumstances, that mean they should have gotten a second chance, executing them weren't wholly wrong, our laws explicitly say, that knowingly making deals with the enemies of humanity is an execution worthy offense.
 
Crake said:
Doing basically anything Tywin ever commanded them to, but especially how they dealt with Cult-type related activity, aberrant or infernal.
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So you also think that they should have killed Tywin? Or kidnapped him and faked his death or something?

Meanwhile, they crackdowns on cults weren't especially bad, AFAIK. They killed the tainted and didn't use Yss to heal them, but they don't exactly have Yss handy. And they've done a pretty good job of keeping the Deep Ones and devils in check in their lands. They've also avoided war with the Chosen or Fey, and stamped down on various magical emergencies.
 
DragonParadox said:
There was some miscommunication involved. I thought you wanted to kill Lana and Gerion on moral grounds, when actually it seems to be more of a Aurane thing, frustration at their performance.
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To be fair, we do usually stop devils from running around doing whatever they like for a number of moral and practical reasons. We recruit after the threat, and crimes, are neutralized. The same applies here, but with the proviso that Lanna and Gerion aren't worth salvaging because they're less trustworthy (and effective) than the kind of devils we hire.

Not that we're always perfect about this, like how we sent those Erinyes back politely if they refused to flip, but that's the pattern we try to stick to.

Edit: grammar
 
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Fiends are expected to be evil; humans can choose.
There are exceptions to the rule, but humans have it a lot easier than outsiders.
 
DragonParadox said:
There was some miscommunication involved. I thought you wanted to kill Lana and Gerion on moral grounds, when actually it seems to be more of a Aurane thing, frustration at their performance.
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I just violently reject the notion that one should hold the power to bend reality to ones whim, and use it so poorly. Have every advantage we lacked just handed to them (perhaps just perception--granted they definitely had a lot of their privileges literally given over to them before they really made them their own) while we had to scramble to not only justify ourselves and our rule to others but to gather the resources to maintain it in the first place, yet show a distinct lack of progress with it, less so than even Lucan.
 
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