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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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egoo said:
[X] Duesal
Side note, does anyone have any ideas for the effects for "Seven Trees of Andalos", the ones we voted to raise alongside restored chapels of Seven this turn?

We didn't raise them with the rest earlier this month just because we had no effects lined up :/

Old Gods and uncle told us that they have "enough" HTs connected to powerful leylines and they need simply moar Heart Trees planted all around now.

We can do that.

@Duesal, you won't mind me lining up something along the lines "1-2 (Healing) heart trees for every province in the Empire" as an MA for the next turn?
Even minor settlement could greatly profit from those.
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We should add things that help crops and fertility just in case any of the curse remains, even if it doesn't it would still be a nice gesture of "restoring" the land.

egoo said:
A lollipop. Yum.

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How many licks to the center of the Fey courts?
Let's put Azema on it.
 
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egoo said:
[X] Duesal
Side note, does anyone have any ideas for the effects for "Seven Trees of Andalos", the ones we voted to raise alongside restored chapels of Seven this turn?

We didn't raise them with the rest earlier this month just because we had no effects lined up :/

Old Gods and uncle told us that they have "enough" HTs connected to powerful leylines and they need simply moar Heart Trees planted all around now.

We can do that.

@Duesal, you won't mind me lining up something along the lines "1-2 (Healing) heart trees for every province in the Empire" as an MA for the next turn?
Even minor settlement could greatly profit from those.
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I did some work on the Seven Trees of Andalos, I can just dig those up.

And sure, but I'll need to check which provinces we actively own and which are safe to grow trees in.

Sallosh, for example, isn't going to get a tree because the Old Gods would just butt heads with the ghosts.
 
zxzx24 said:
Is that better? To have a coldly practical and efficient god, rather than an unreliable one who actually cares about you?
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In every way yes, a thousand times yes.

Because Mortals choose Gods, Mortals power Gods.

If you decide they're worth entering into a mutual support arrangement then all you need is for them to be efficient at executing that arrangement.

If Yss doesn't care and still warns us proactively, plans to return us if we fell to Mammon etc. then you just want him to carry on to the best of his ability.
 
Deliste said:
In every way yes, a thousand times yes.

Because Mortals choose Gods, Mortals power Gods.

If you decide they're worth entering into a mutual support arrangement then all you need is for them to be efficient at executing that arrangement.

If Yss doesn't care and still warns us proactively, plans to return us if we fell to Mammon etc. then you just want him to carry on to the best of his ability.
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For the people who dont make the cut?

and well...

theres more than one way to skin a mortal. just look at the 15th.
 
Deliste said:
In every way yes, a thousand times yes.

Because Mortals choose Gods, Mortals power Gods.

If you decide they're worth entering into a mutual support arrangement then all you need is for them to be efficient at executing that arrangement.

If Yss doesn't care and still warns us proactively, plans to return us if we fell to Mammon etc. then you just want him to carry on to the best of his ability.
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It's really not fair for any God to be compared to Yss, he is Xor levels of cute and nice.
Always offers fair deals, its implied he could be much more powerful but always insists on paying back what he is given.
Helps us whenever we need it, even at his own cost.
He gets angry at false Gods, not out of jelousy, but on behalf of their followers who won't get passage to an afterlife because of it.

Sure he eats souls, but nobody's perfect.
 
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zxzx24 said:
For the people who dont make the cut?

and well...

theres more than one way to skin a mortal. just look at the 15th.
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You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by making the cut because I can't respond to that.

As for the 15th, it is not a God, it was a mortal that bitched out partway and begged Asmodeus.

It's mortal nature and it's connection to it's mortal brethren in that moment was the issue that spread the taint.

It really doesn't apply to gods that exist, only if you're attempting to birth them in the moment.

das_slash said:
It's really not fair for any God to be compared to Yss
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I didn't make the comparison.

[X] Duesal
 
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Deliste said:
You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by making the cut because I can't respond to that.
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Deliste said:
As for the 15th, it is not a God, it was a mortal that bitched out partway and begged Asmodeus.
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Deliste said:
It's mortal nature and it's connection to it's mortal brethren in that moment was the issue that spread the taint.
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Deliste said:
It really doesn't apply to gods that exist, only if you're attempting to birth them in the moment.
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eh.

its late, and You... yeah.
 
[X] Duesal

How dare Gods not pay attention? /s

But yeah, all of the deities we've gotten used to have extenuating circumstances; Heart Trees and direct mental link to Bloodraven, can just go find their avatars and ask for the sneks, his daughters are chillin' around our empire for the Merling King.. and so on.

However, look at such on the flipside; Viserys Targaryen, a weapon against the Others and family. Rescued and embodied both the sneks. We are breaking the Deep Ones and their servants at every opportunity, for the Merling King and offered a home to his worshippers.

TL: DR, they are bothering with us because we are worth bothering with. What did we do to benefit Burny in such a stark, personal fashion?

There is of course, the consideration that every single deity we actually like is older than dirt and connected to some primordial concept.
 
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Deliste said:
So very glad I took the time to respond to you.
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sorry, im up... early at this point, and my brain is feeling prett fried.

venkjalkfhfj

If you aren't useful to Yss, he doesn't give a shit about you. I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what he and we consider potentially useful as well. Which is a great attitude. Right up until it bites you in the ass.

As for harvesting divine essence? Supposedly gods created this world. They can feed on sacrifices, ley lines, souls, obscure ritual BS, and probably a bunch of other ways that I dont remember right now?
 
Nickan said:
What did we do to benefit Burny in such a stark, personal fashion?
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We didn't kill Mel when she confronted us out in the desert.
We calmly talked down Haldon when his people came with torches to our new Lyseni tree.
We brokered an agreement between Benerro and Zherys when discord between them would have profited Ymeri.

I admit that we didn't work for Burny much, but we did pay some attention not to make him our enemy either, which is very good for him because we could have and still can hurt his religion a lot.
 
Something, something, indifference you put forth, with the slight flavour of not making more enemies, indifference you get back.

Now, to be clear, am not advocating more Burny devotion, particularly when his core tenets are unlikely to survive the transition; Far better to work on it when his worshippers shape such anew.

But yeah, we are absurdly 'favoured' by the other deities mentioned; Such a connection with Burny simply does not exist.
 
Nickan said:
Something, something, indifference you put forth, with the slight flavour of not making more enemies, indifference you get back.

Now, to be clear, am not advocating more Burny devotion, particularly when his core tenets are unlikely to survive the transition; Far better to work on it when his worshippers shape such anew.

But yeah, we are absurdly 'favoured' by the other deities mentioned; Such a connection with Burny simply does not exist.
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It's not like the original argument was that he should do more things for us. The argument was that he should do more for his worshipers in exchange for their worship, specially since he does promise them a lot, rather than add clear terms and conditions.

This leads to situations such as the one with the spindle where they take in on faith it was him doing it rather than verify, and therefore may wind up in grave danger because they're relying on R'hllor to not only have everything covered, but be behind everything.

Our favorite Gods are the Old Gods, who promise the average person nothing in particular and make minimal demands, and Yss, who is very clear as to what he'll give you and what it'll cost you. Besides our good working relationship with them, we approve of how they handle themselves on a philosophical level.
 
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065tdsa said:
It's not like the original argument was that he should do more things for us. The argument was that he should do more for his worshipers in exchange for their worship, specially since he does promise them a lot, rather than add clear terms and conditions.

This leads to situations such as the one with the spindle where they take in on faith it was him doing it rather than verify, and therefore may wind up in grave danger because they're relying on R'hllor to not only have everything covered, but be behind everything.

Our favorite Gods are the Old Gods, who promise the average person nothing in particular and make minimal demands, and Yss, who is very clear as to what he'll give you and what it'll cost you. Besides our good working relationship with them, we approve of how they handle themselves on a philosophical level.
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That's fair. Though, by the same measure, he promises 'Salvation' which can and should indeed feature cryptic bullshit and finding out shit yourself, if asking a worshipper about it (Look at Mel!). Being vague as all hell in regards to what exactly you offer is freeing, not limiting.
 
zxzx24 said:
sorry, im up... early at this point, and my brain is feeling prett fried.

venkjalkfhfj

If you aren't useful to Yss, he doesn't give a shit about you. I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what he and we consider potentially useful as well. Which is a great attitude. Right up until it bites you in the ass.

As for harvesting divine essence? Supposedly gods created this world. They can feed on sacrifices, ley lines, souls, obscure ritual BS, and probably a bunch of other ways that I dont remember right now?
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I don't mind you being tired, it was this part that threw me.

zxzx24 said:
and You... yeah.
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I what?

zxzx24 said:
If you aren't useful to Yss, he doesn't give a shit about you. I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what he and we consider potentially useful as well.
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No god, not one, gives a shit about those who aren't useful*. It's just that sometimes that usefulness can be as "little" as getting your soul later.

The whole point is reliability and mutually beneficial arrangement as stated previously, there you are being useful to the god and they have reason to benefit you.

The god being reliable means you can navigate this relationship with confidence and effectiveness.

zxzx24 said:
Which is a great attitude. Right up until it bites you in the ass
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You can say that about anything dude, "not sacrificing babies is a great attitude right up until it bites you in the ass" because who's to say there's never going to be a situation you need to sacrifice a baby.

Could be the baby's soul was already compromised and on its way to an awful existence, sacrificing the baby won't save it's life but it might save it's soul.

Yes this is a ridiculous example but it should illustrate the point.

zxzx24 said:
As for harvesting divine essence? Supposedly gods created this world. They can feed on sacrifices, ley lines, souls, obscure ritual BS, and probably a bunch of other ways that I dont remember right now?
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Mortal worshippers make sacrifice, mortals prepare, attune, co-opt etc. leylines, mortals are the source of souls, mortals perform rituals.

I didn't say mortal prayer powers gods, I said mortals do.

We have no word on world creation and over-deities but I highly doubt you'll find Gods truly existed before anything else, not as gods at least.



*If you're an active detriment they give a shit in a different way.

Edit:

I could probably clean up my earlier point a little too.

The 15th and the Valyrians who did become gods were ascended (or partway) by their culture and theft of Tiamat, the mortal god relationship was being formed as it was tainted.

It is not much similar to 99.99% of mortal god relationships which occur with some degree of adoption on either side rather than straight up genesis.
 
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Deliste said:
I what?
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Mostly was referring to...

Deliste said:
No god, not one, gives a shit about those who aren't useful*. It's just that sometimes that usefulness can be as "little" as getting your soul later.
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This is... not untrue? But for philosophical reasons I disagree? Arguing wether or not altruism is possible/exists is something I am NOT prepared to do at 5 am. So agree to disagree?

Deliste said:
The whole point is reliability and mutually beneficial arrangement as stated previously, there you are being useful to the god and they have reason to benefit you.

The god being reliable means you can navigate this relationship with confidence and effectiveness.
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I like this. Id prefer more... transparency? In the divine thing? At least for ley people. I don't think honesty requires being involved in a contract though, and many people have reasons to... lie? Could we make gods lying to their followers illegal? Would that even be possible?

Deliste said:
Mortal worshippers make sacrifice, mortals prepare, attune, co-opt etc. leylines, mortals are the source of souls, mortals perform rituals.

I didn't say mortal prayer powers gods, I said mortals do.

We have no word on world creation and over-deities but I highly doubt you'll find Gods truly existed before anything else, not as gods at least.



*If you're an active detriment they give a shit in a different way.
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I should have said "Gods do not need to collect essence in a way that is beneficial to humans" They can easily do so in ways that are harmful, malicious, and cruel.

Simply fisting out a chunk of the prime material, consuming all of the souls in it, and then grinding them into dust would be the most direct method. Though all the other gods would come down on someone who did that like the hammer of... gods?

Just keeping around forever as a magical battery is also a pretty decent way to extract power from them. Less useful than turning them into outsiders, but doable, even in practical ways.

This relationship is in no way inherently mutually beneficial. And on the mortal end we require there to be enough gods keeping the cold war state between good and evil to prevent the prime material from becoming a farm.
 
zxzx24 said:
This relationship is in no way inherently mutually beneficial. And on the mortal end we require there to be enough gods keeping the cold war state between good and evil to prevent the prime material from becoming a farm.
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I really think it is, or near enough.

Even peeps like Asmodeus and Charon have to reward their followers, have to work with them not against them, or they have no followers.
Even Tiamat did, in our time with her.

The relationship must be, to a degree at least, mutually beneficial, or the god in question never even gets the necessary hands on the Material Plane to do anything at all.
Now if this mutual benefit extends to a large amount of believers, or to a small amount of powerful agents while the rest of the believers get shit for their faith, is up to the god in question of course.

The high likelyhood that Burny offers a decent afterlife to those that did not much more for him than believe in him makes him morally better than any Archfiend, but clearing that low bar is the best I can say about him.
 
zxzx24 said:
Could we make gods lying to their followers illegal? Would that even be possible?
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I believe we effectively do already but subsuming huge religions like Burny and Seven have slowed that a little in that we are gradually doing away with the notion of "One (or 7) True Gods".

There are laws against misrepresenting their nature and other broad spectrum lies.

A specific lie to an individual worshipper I am less sure of.

I'd be happy to be right there with you explicitly making that law, you've hit on a peeve of mine.

zxzx24 said:
Simply fisting out a chunk of the prime material, consuming all of the souls in it, and then grinding them into dust would be the most direct method. Though all the other gods would come down on someone who did that like the hammer of... gods?
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The rest was covered well enough by Artemis1993* but this is a tremendous assumption that I really do not believe to be true.

@DragonParadox

Can Gods act in such a way truly without any mortal servants?

Edit:
*New and Improved!
 
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Guys, if you are enjoying the argument by all means go on, but if its starting to get to you please consider continuing tomorrow when emotions have cooled down?
 
Think im going to bed for real this time, not sure about the gods cold war thing at all. It... varies. A lot, from setting to setting. I tend to interpret things in the worst possible light unless I force myself to be optimistic.

Assuming the prime material hasnt been pancaked because divine entities are too busy playing poker seems about right for what I would think.
 
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