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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Ericwinter said:
well yeah, and that's kind of the point I was trying to make. But conceptualism, in this setting, actually matters, so just trying to restore a conceptually Good realm with Neutral beings would probably be a lot more difficult than it sounds. More than that, however, IC we have proven quite... not hostile per se, but at least somewhat disdainful of Conceptual Good. Not to mention, it would be a lot easier and, IMO, better as a whole to build a Lawful Neutral Realm designed to do the same thing Heaven did, but without judgement or any of the highbrow morality. hell, we're already making a baby god. Might as well give them a Divine Realm to go with it. Actuall, @DragonParadox @Azel, what would it take for that?
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This might just be me, but it feels...disrespectful? Unsettling? to build what is essentially a bastion of Order on the ashes of what was all Good. It feels like something Asmodeous would do.

Good, for all its faults, includes such annoying things as "highbrow morality". It's one of the reasons why they fought and died to the last instead of becoming Devils like Asmodeous and those like him did.

I thought I would publicly voice my opinion that I am firmly against any sort of "neutral" plane being created here. Create a Plane of your own free of judgement and morality, but please don't further defile this one. (using you as a general term, not specifically you @Ericwinter ; not trying to make this an attack on anyone)
 
Oh yeah!

[X] Crake

Even if bloodraven is so hardened as to be inured to the supernatural despair, I somehow can't find myself to think the ravens will be.
 
Ericwinter said:
well yeah, and that's kind of the point I was trying to make. But conceptualism, in this setting, actually matters, so just trying to restore a conceptually Good realm with Neutral beings would probably be a lot more difficult than it sounds. More than that, however, IC we have proven quite... not hostile per se, but at least somewhat disdainful of Conceptual Good. Not to mention, it would be a lot easier and, IMO, better as a whole to build a Lawful Neutral Realm designed to do the same thing Heaven did, but without judgement or any of the highbrow morality. hell, we're already making a baby god. Might as well give them a Divine Realm to go with it. Actuall, @DragonParadox @Azel, what would it take for that?
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If you go with the idea of making your own deity / divine battery / something along those lines, then you could just as well try to make a matching afterlife.

What that would take? Well, a ton of research is the first step. And the second. And then you might now how many more steps you need. Or at least have a rough idea of how many steps you need to figure out the number of steps.
 
Azel said:
If you go with the idea of making your own deity / divine battery / something along those lines, then you could just as well try to make a matching afterlife.

What that would take? Well, a ton of research is the first step. And the second. And then you might now how many more steps you need. Or at least have a rough idea of how many steps you need to figure out the number of steps.
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Unless we do a hard shift on priorities. (Which is probably going to happen, but not an extreme enough one for this.) We probably are not going to be able to complete that in the scope of this quest.

Hell it might never get done. We might just have to rebuild. Forever, and then... that will be that.

People will build on the project, live there, die there, have children, and someday people will call it "home" and that will be it.
 
Azel said:
If you go with the idea of making your own deity / divine battery / something along those lines, then you could just as well try to make a matching afterlife.

What that would take? Well, a ton of research is the first step. And the second. And then you might now how many more steps you need. Or at least have a rough idea of how many steps you need to figure out the number of steps.
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I believe he was referring to unbending the fulcrum of the universe, not just building an afterlife specifically.
 
@Ericwinter there is a Lawful Neutral realm already, it's called Axis, and it is turning.

Turing, in the context it was used, is implied to have been a positive thing.

@Crake, it's one single bloodwish to cast a message to Brynden or to get so someone else to cast it to him (or his Varys sacrilurium), and I feel it would be in keeping the the magnitude of what Viserys just experienced for him to warn people as best he can before they see it themselves.

Oh, and help prevent shock to the Old Gods when they see it too (as they are tied to the PoB, they probably aren't that aware of Heaven's state imo.

But, in the end itt not the hugest deal.

[X] Crake
 
Raichu1972 said:
This might just be me, but it feels...disrespectful? Unsettling? to build what is essentially a bastion of Order on the ashes of what was all Good. It feels like something Asmodeous would do.

Good, for all its faults, includes such annoying things as "highbrow morality". It's one of the reasons why they fought and died to the last instead of becoming Devils like Asmodeous and those like him did.
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Considering that a major theme of this chapter was that Asmodeus was right, at least at the beginning, and not supporting his original plans is what led to both Baator and Heaven's Downfall, I consider that a good thing.
Azel said:
If you go with the idea of making your own deity / divine battery / something along those lines, then you could just as well try to make a matching afterlife.

What that would take? Well, a ton of research is the first step. And the second. And then you might now how many more steps you need. Or at least have a rough idea of how many steps you need to figure out the number of steps.
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zxzx24 said:
I believe he was referring to unbending the fulcrum of the universe, not just building an afterlife specifically.
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Pretty much this. We've even got a Divine Realm just sitting here. I imagine it would be easier to clean up and convert Heaven than to build something entirely new. or if nothing else, we could probably get all the other Gods we have on our sides to pitch in, since they've all built their own Divine Realms at some point, right? Creating a sort of neutral ground, Divine Embassy, or basically a joint Fortress against the rest of the Evil Planes might be something at least a few are interested in. Yss and the OGs at least.
 
Perhaps we can also add something uplifting to say Yrael, something like.

"Yrael, although things are more terrible then I imagined the Light is not dead. Each of us carries a ray of the Light of Heaven within us. And we shall grow that light with hope, and feed it with all of our efforts to build a better place for everyone.
This was an End, but it was NOT 'The End'.
We will build and grow, learning from the mistakes of the past to build a better future and ensure the Light Endures"
 
DarkObelisk said:
Perhaps we can also add something uplifting to say Yrael, something like.

"Yrael, although things are more terrible then I imagined the Light is not dead. Each of us carries a ray of the Light of Heaven within us. And we shall grow that light with hope, and feed it with all of our efforts to build a better place for everyone.
This was an End, but it was NOT 'The End'.
We will build and grow, learning from the mistakes of the past to build a better future and ensure the Light Endures"
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I understand the desire.

I feel that it not help Yarel to hear this. Not in this context. Not now, not from Viserys.
 
Ericwinter said:
Considering that a major theme of this chapter was that Asmodeus was right, at least at the beginning, and not supporting his original plans is what led to both Baator and Heaven's Downfall, I consider that a good thing.


Pretty much this. We've even got a Divine Realm just sitting here. I imagine it would be easier to clean up and convert Heaven than to build something entirely new. or if nothing else, we could probably get all the other Gods we have on our sides to pitch in, since they've all built their own Divine Realms at some point, right? Creating a sort of neutral ground, Divine Embassy, or basically a joint Fortress against the rest of the Evil Planes might be something at least a few are interested in. Yss and the OGs at least.
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The way I see it is that Yrael is in deep despair. He has seen his home shattered, while Baator still stands. Of course he would think back to past regrets, and I imagine one of the biggest regrets of Heaven in general is the creation of Devils.

I do not believe that what we see here makes Asmodeous right, that Good must be bent in order to stop Evil. Yrael has spent the past amount of time among mortals, fallible and weak to temptation, and realized that they were the only ones left. The only ones trying to make some good in the world, even if it wasn't Good.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, while I can perfectly understand while Yrael specifically would get into the mindset of "we should have accepting a bending of our principles and unsavory methods for the Greater Good", I do not believe that has to be the case.
 
Wow...well done. It is as logical and as supported by the story thus far as our demon's rise, and yet I never suspected the angel's fall until I saw the colors fade. Which, by the way, was an AMAZING framing for it. Just watching the colors dim as he worked his way towards the conclusion he could no longer avoid...this is one of the most powerful updates in the entire story. Seriously, kudos @Azel

[X] Crake
 
Holy shit. The fact that Heaven is outright empty is actually more terrifying than it being run over by Devils/Demons/Daemons/whatever. An occupation at least implies something left worth fighting over.

Damn. Not sure if I'm comfortable wihh advocating for outright Atheism in the Imperium anymore since it looks like people do need to attach themselves to some God or another to not get completely bumfucked in the afterlife.

Also the colors fading was a great touch. I think I noticed maybe two shades in? The gradient just helped with that slow unsettling tragic feel of it all.
 
A_Somebody said:
Holy shit. The fact that Heaven is outright empty is actually more terrifying than it being run over by Devils/Demons/Daemons/whatever. An occupation at least implies something left worth fighting over.

Damn. Not sure if I'm comfortable wihh advocating for outright Atheism in the Imperium anymore since it looks like people do need to attach themselves to some God or another to not get completely bumfucked in the afterlife.

Also the colors fading was a great touch. I think I noticed maybe two shades in? The gradient just helped with that slow unsettling tragic feel of it all.
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When were we ever advocating for atheism? I'm a bit insulted if people don't even bother shopping for gods after our efforts in building all those temples and collecting clerics.
 
DragonParadox said:
could smell her one of her favorite meals
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Extra her.
Azel said:
Her black feather almost gleam in the crisp morning sun, but her eyes are clouded
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The Erynies feathers turned blood red when they swore to us.
Azel said:
"I wonder what became of Istvar."
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That name sounds familiar.
Azel said:
dips the black feathers into a sinister cast.
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Again, red feathers.
DragonParadox said:
Given the poem you found
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Link to it?

Also @Azel why is Mereth's speech in red now? It never was before, and it started before they left Mantarys so it being due the other plane also doesn't explain it.

And she has a paragraph un-colored in the middle of it all. Just to show she wasn't "speaking as a devil" there?
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Also @Azel why is Mereth's speech in red now? It never was before, and it started before they left Mantarys so it being due the other plane also doesn't explain it.

And she has a paragraph un-colored in the middle of it all. Just to show she wasn't "speaking as a devil" there?
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We had a few chapters of Yrael being not yellow in the middle of it too, but here her red worked well as a framing help.

I'm a subtle bugger.

Going to fix the wing color in a moment.

Edit: Done.
 
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