Again, not superior, and again, scale doesn't define morality. The most pious, kind, and good-hearted man in the world could be a beggar on the streets of a random village. It's not about what you do, but how you do it.

She's better than what she serves and, in all honesty, is better than us. [..] she is basically all the best parts of the Faith wrapped into one package.

How am I supposed to read this, if not as claiming that she is morally "better than us"?

And yes, actually. If you have the power (which she does), you are not a beggar on the streets of a random village. And if that power is indelibly associated with perfidy, and you choose to use said power to do small-scale good while ignoring the larger scale evils you could affect, then that's a problem.

Imagine if the son of Eric Prince worked as an accountant for Blackwater but also took his weekends off to work for a soup kitchen. Which would you say was more important from a moral perspective: the admirable fact that he chooses to feed the poor by his own hand? Or the fact that he lives the rest of his life working for an organization willingly steeped in human misery, and benefitting from his high position within said organization?
 
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Out of Character Vote

Mistakes have been made, big mistakes that caused bad blood that had legitimate grievances erred about the way we are handling the arc and looking ahead to the future the resolution looks like it could cause even more bad blood. A apology however sincere is not going to cut it here. The implicit message has become explicit and a lot of the impact is lost. with that said given how drastic one of the solutions we have come up with is this needs to be a OOC vote on the part of the whole community. So here are our options going forward (or in two cases backwards):

[] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come

[] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better

[] Ret-con the entire arc since the arrival in Oldtown, the conclave is cancelled due to moves by the high septon you guys need to figure out what do do with Viserys this month

Edit: preserving the vote here in case you guys want to continue.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 17, 2019 at 5:15 AM, finished with 112 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] TotallyNotEvil
    [X] Goldfish
    [x] Plan Re-Evaluate the Course Mk 2
    [X] Plan Jules Winfield Speech
    [X] Laugh softly. "Let go of my fears. If I had done that while beggared in the streets of Bravos, you and I would never have met. All the calls to my mother's gods went unanswered. In my times of fear I found my strength. I found drive and purpose. I found my friends.
    [X] Sigh deeply. "It would have been much simpler if he had been that raving lunatic. The Old God's hunger for Chosen blood. I could have given him to them and they would have gifted me my investment sevenfold.
    [X] I will give back to you what I have taken. Upon the last day of the Conclave.
    [X] They will be treated as guests in my realm. Free to pass their time seeing whatever they want of my realm in the Narrow Seas.
    [X] After this Conclave you will have the opportunity to see if I am... something worse or if tales have been exaggerated.
    [X] Crake
    [X] Plan "My Turn"
    -[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
    -[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
    --[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
    --[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
    --[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
    ---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
    -[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
    --[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 17, 2019 at 5:15 AM, finished with 822 posts and 41 votes.

  • [x] Plan Re-Evaluate the Course Mk 2
    -[x] Throughout your reign, and even beforehand, you have chosen many rigorous, often thankless tasks, stomped on lives like ants just in the course of an average day of rulership and statesmanship. And you stand by it. Still, if there's something you despise, it's needless cruelty and senseless waste. You won't become driven, out of all things, by ignorant fear. You were never one to close your eyes to harsh truths, even if their light stings.
    -[x] "Lucan has brought back one of my ancestors in the form of a creature designed with the sole purpose of slaying me, capable of dealing unhealable wounds and unbreakable curses. Roland, one of his attendant angels, could not say the man would be even willing to meet with me under a parley, just to talk. Still, I can see the sincerity in your eyes, the fear and the pain, and, above all, the faith that drives you. I respect that you've come here, and are willing to die to speak your mind. You seem like a good woman, Danelle, so I am willing to have a little bit of faith myself." *Release the hostages*
    -[x] "Once you have confirmed their safety, I want to speak with you and Brother Lucan. Today. It seems it's past time that cards were laid on the table. You have my word you will leave unmolested, if you don't break the peace first." During the evening, Danelle and Lucan will meet with Viserys and Dany.
    -[X] There's no point in laying out a list of demands or motivations or goals. Hear out both of their concerns and their motives. If they care even a little about you hearing them out, they will share what they think is necessary, and you will tacitly ensure they know they can ask for clarification from you if it is required for them to share more. This time calls for clear communication, no more and no less.
    [X] Plan full Evil Overlord
    -[X] Turtle her, then look for Lucan to turtle too. Deal with them and their friends later.
    -[X] Impersonate both at the Conclave to do what we intend to do.
    [x] Plan The World as we see it
    -[X] Release her companions right now, just ask her to actually listen to us
    [X] There is no proposal that can benefit the Faith and the Faithful alike. The best outcome, the one least likely to end in fire or blood, is for the Faith to weaken and fade, to split up into small sects with little political relevance. That is how the Faithful will survive and be protected, while the Old Gods are satisfied.
    -[X] Can you act against your gods for the sake of their followers? Then we can find an agreement.
    -[X] Explain the wider situation, the countless enemies in this world and others, the help the Old Gods are giving us and why it is worth helping them with their old grudges in return.
    -[X] Lay out the entire strategic situation on- and off-plane, even if it takes several hours and illusory flipcharts. Yes this includes Devil-activity, the Brazen Throne and Tiamat.
    -[X] Ask her honestly if she sees a way to fullfill all our goals and protect mankind while keeping the Faith intact and the Seven unbowed? We don't have the time to do this perfectly and since Lucan's introduction to us was an Angel with Kingkiller-template we judged talking things out not to be worth it.
    [X] Plan "My Turn"
    -[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
    -[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
    --[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
    --[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
    --[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
    ---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
    -[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
    --[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
    [X] Say something else:
    [X] Plan LG Viserys
    -[X] She is right. Your actions were wrong and too hasty. Accept her pledge, release your prisoners and leave the Conclave.
    -[X] Play up the fact that you are the monarch of a kingdom of disparate peoples; people of different religions, cultures, and even planes.
    -[X] Mention your belief that the Seven wish to put all mages under their watch and "protection", which is obviously a non starter for most in the Imperium and a point of friction between yourself and the Seven. Ask Danielle to push for allowing mages to self regulate without the Seven looming over their shoulders.
    -[X] Mention your current pact with the Old Gods, and appeal to the idea that, like Lucan, you are doing what you must in order to power the Old Gods against an even greater threat (aka the Others). See if she can find some way to humble the Seven without bloodshed of her faithful.
    -[X] Ask about Baelor the Kingkiller, and explain that you made an assumption based upon Baelor that you and Lucan could never be allies because of it. This of course ended up being a false assumption, but try to explain your reasoning and how it looked from your perspective.
    -[X] Ask to meet with Danielle and Lucan, as well as any other Chosen of their choosing, at some sort of neutral location of their choosing to discuss the realities of being caught between a War of the Gods and how best to resolve our differences.
    -[X] Extend an invitation to Danielle (and her companions if she so chooses to invite them) for a tour of Sorcerer's Deep in order to show both the justness of our rule and to dispel most of the negative rumors abound about us.
    [X] Plan Re-Evaluate the Course
    -[X] In a single conversation, and all of the proceeding events of the Conclave, one thing has become apparent to you about Danelle: Not just sincerity, but of risk, compromise. She has come here to both act as a Martyr for Lucan to exploit for the sake of the people she hopes to defend, but also a statement in of itself. She has met you half way, and she is begging you to meet her.
    -[X] You despise self delusion. You have chosen many rigorous, often thankless courses, stomped on lives like ants just in the course of an average day of rulership and statesmanship. What you have done is torment a woman who has done you no wrong and made her fret and put her life in your hand, with determination or resignation, it almost doesn't even matter.
    -[X] Step back. Have Dany release the hostages.
    -[X] With bone-deep weariness: "Once you have confirmed their safety, I would like to speak, as I am now, with Brother Lucan." But not alone. During the next recess, Danelle and Lucan will meet with Viserys and Dany. You're all for accepting some more bitter truths, but not without the support of your sister.
    -[X] There's no point in laying out a list of demands or motivations or goals. Hear out both of their concerns and their motives. If they care even a little about you hearing them out, they will share what they think is necessary, and you will tacitly ensure they know they can ask for clarification from you if it is required for them to share more. This time calls for clear communication, no more and no less.
    [X] Plan Re-Evaluate the Course
    -[X] In a single conversation, and all of the proceeding events of the Conclave, one thing has become apparent to you about Danelle: Not just sincerity, but of risk, compromise. She has come here to both act as a Martyr for Lucan to exploit for the sake of the people she hopes to defend, but also a statement in of itself. She has met you half way, and she is begging you to meet her.
    -[X] You despise self delusion. You have chosen many rigorous, often thankless courses, stomped on lives like ants just in the course of an average day of rulership and statesmanship. What you have done is torment a woman who has done you no wrong and made her fret and put her life in your hand, with determination or resignation, it almost doesn't even matter.
    -[X] Step back. Have Dany release the hostages.
    -[X] With some fair degree of honest weariness: "Once you have confirmed their safety, I would like to speak, as I am now, with Brother Lucan." But not alone. During the evening, Danelle and Lucan will meet with Viserys and Dany. You're all for accepting some more bitter truths, but not without the support of your sister.
    -[X] There's no point in laying out a list of demands or motivations or goals. Hear out both of their concerns and their motives. If they care even a little about you hearing them out, they will share what they think is necessary, and you will tacitly ensure they know they can ask for clarification from you if it is required for them to share more. This time calls for clear communication, no more and no less.
    [X] Plan Vacation
    -[x] You just want this event to be over, talk to who you need to talk and finish this business or finish it later, you are going to take Lya and every companion that wants to go, and teleport to Summer Islands to enjoy the beach and Coconuts for at least a month, the imperium can survive without direct supervision.
    [X] Abstain
    [X] Plan Jules Winfield Speech
    [X] Laugh softly. "Let go of my fears. If I had done that while beggared in the streets of Bravos, you and I would never have met. All the calls to my mother's gods went unanswered. In my times of fear I found my strength. I found drive and purpose. I found my friends.
    [X] Sigh deeply. "It would have been much simpler if he had been that raving lunatic. The Old God's hunger for Chosen blood. I could have given him to them and they would have gifted me my investment sevenfold.
    [X] I will give back to you what I have taken. Upon the last day of the Conclave.
    [X] They will be treated as guests in my realm. Free to pass their time seeing whatever they want of my realm in the Narrow Seas.
    [X] After this Conclave you will have the opportunity to see if I am... something worse or if tales have been exaggerated.
 
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Ouch.

DP needs a hug. Vote hugs, everyone! Likes are bad, evne if you do like this brave decision.

Fuck retcons. Especially huge ones going back weeks
 
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[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come

Retcon is not about to save these two from my charts.

They wanted to see the depths, they're going to see the goddamn depths.

 
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Just my two cents. I don't think we should retcon. I think this has been a necessary growing pain and we can all do better in the future.

[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come
 
...even knowing that this will very likely not win, I am still much interested in dropping all the shite that happened since.

So, a riot-vote, so to say. :V

[X] Ret-con the entire arc since the arrival in Oldtown, the conclave is cancelled due to moves by the high septon you guys need to figure out what do do with Viserys this month
 
[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come
//
I don't like retcons.
 
[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come
//
I don't like retcons.
Just my two cents. I don't think we should retcon. I think this has been a necessary growing pain and we can all do better in the future.

[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come

[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better


My first instinct was to agree with you. I dislike retcons.
But reread the last update. Did it feel like Viserys? Hell, did it fell well written? No it didn't. It was a speech-robot talking to a wall while pretending to have a Diplomacy score. And there was a horrible overuse of the word "yet..." that was really jarring and is uncharacteristic of DP's usually far better writing!

I want to retcon the last update just for that, honestly. It's a pimple on an otherwise smoothly written quest, and ASWAH deserves better!
 
...I honestly don't understand why everyone has problems with ret-cons.

I see this one as a great chance to go back, and not deal with many problems that have arisen through our this arc (or the last update alone), both us and DP having learned our lessons since as well.

Going forward as we are now, well, we'll have only more salt, won't we?
I'd like this quest to actually survive, and I'm not sure if the following saltsplosions will allow that.
:/
 
...I honestly don't understand why everyone has problems with ret-cons.

I see this one as a great chance to go back, and not deal with many problems that have arisen through our this arc, both us and DP having learned our lessons since as well.

Going forward as we are now, well, we'll have only more salt, won't we?
I'd like this quest to actually survive, and I'm not sure if the following saltsplosions will allow that.
:/

The idea here is to give agency back to you guys, the hope that whatever you choose there will be no salt-plosion because we have all learned our lessons.
 
[X] Ret-con the entire arc since the arrival in Oldtown, the conclave is cancelled due to moves by the high septon you guys need to figure out what do do with Viserys this month
 
For the record, going on from here out will likely lead to a confrontation that will be... less then great for all involved.

The path to said confrontation should have been an entirely different one and with the way things have happened in between, it will likely feel like a blunt moral hammer applied repeatedly to the face.

So fair warning on that.
 
...I honestly don't understand why everyone has problems with ret-cons.

I see this one as a great chance to go back, and not deal with many problems that have arisen through our this arc (or the last update alone), both us and DP having learned our lessons since as well.

Going forward as we are now, well, we'll have only more salt, won't we?
I'd like this quest to actually survive, and I'm not sure if the following saltsplosions will allow that.
:/
Retcons kill quests.
They're also a massive cop-out. We made a lot of mistakes in handling the Conclave, and we ought to take our lumps and deal with them.

If you get too pissed at the Chosen, remember that we'll be killing them and all their servants in the future.

In the meantime, let's not act hastily.
 
New
[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come

I despise Retcons. I am looking forward to this turning into even more of a trainwreck and hopefully, voters running out of patience and finally murdering Saint Lucan.
 
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How am I supposed to read this, if not as claiming that she is morally "better than us"
better and superior are two different things. Superior means you have the high ground in a conversation. Better means you don't compromise and do everything you can even of it means you're fucked for it. In my eyes Viserys is superior, since we have done far more, but Danelle is better because she has compromised far less, if at all.
And yes, actually. If you have the power (which she does), you are not a beggar on the streets of a random village. And if that power is indelibly associated with perfidy, and you choose to use said power to do small-scale good while ignoring the larger scale evils you could affect, then that's a problem.

If the son of Eric Prince worked as an accountant for Blackwater but also took his weekends off to work for a soup kitchen, that charitable act would not absolve him of benefiting from an organization willingly steeped in human misery.
The thing is, you're making two very distinct misconceptions. Danelle does not benefit from the Faith, and in fact disdains any attempts to do so, as well as denying the title of septa. And then there is a difference between ignoring things and not being aware of them. Her lecture about us using devil parts to prepare for "potential future evil" makes it very clear she doesn't actually realize the shot that's out there is both real and already here.
[X] Move on with the arc as it is, deal with the issues as they come
 
Everyone, murdering Lucan now isn't a good thing.
Unless we can somehow pin the blame on the Tyrells...


Danelle does not benefit from the Faith, and in fact disdains any attempts to do so, as well as denying the title of septa.
You are misinterpreting her refusal of the title. It's not out of disdain for it, but of respect !
 
For the record, going on from here out will likely lead to a confrontation that will be... less then great for all involved.

The path to said confrontation should have been an entirely different one and with the way things have happened in between, it will likely feel like a blunt moral hammer applied repeatedly to the face.

So fair warning on that.
Holy shit, I just looked at the winning vote.
That's absolutely not what I voted for, and surely I'm not the only person here who voted for something very different only to see the person they had namevoted totally change their vote without tagging them?
@Goldfish, @Crake (especially you!!!), please don't do that in the future. When you significantly change your vote, tag the people who namevoted you and warn them.
@Duesal does that, and it's very good of him. Do the same !

Anyway, vote is closed now and I guess we'll have to live with it.

Lets just kill every chosen including danelle and try again with the new chosen
Actions have consequences. The new Chosen will certainly oppose us.
 
better and superior are two different things. Superior means you have the high ground in a conversation.

By dictionary definition, it also means "better."

Better means you don't compromise and do everything you can even of it means you're fucked for it. In my eyes Viserys is superior, since we have done far more, but Danelle is better because she has compromised far less, if at all.

I don't quite agree with your etymology, but I will agree that our ethics trend much farther towards Consequentialism than hers do.

The thing is, you're making two very distinct misconceptions. Danelle does not benefit from the Faith, and in fact disdains any attempts to do so,

Incorrect, or she would not be at the Conclave, nor enjoy the prestige and other ephemeral benefits of being the Chosen. She has the power to effect change. She could go invoke it and people would listen.

She could also reject her title, claim not to speak for the Mother, and refuse to endorse the Faith. That she does not do so is her choice.

As for your second point, I accused her of ignoring the very real history of abuse that is systemically endorsed and perpetuated by the Faith. Saying this is because she doesn't know about extraplanar threats is a pretty odd riposte.
 
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For the record, going on from here out will likely lead to a confrontation that will be... less then great for all involved.

The path to said confrontation should have been an entirely different one and with the way things have happened in between, it will likely feel like a blunt moral hammer applied repeatedly to the face.

So fair warning on that.

Just so long as we can swing the hammer back then I'm fine with it.

 
@Azel, you were asking why everyone was voting for Crake despite bitching about his plan?
@Goldfish delegated without making a big fuss and tagging everyone.

Holy shit, I just looked at the winning vote.
That's absolutely not what I voted for, and surely I'm not the only person here who voted for something very different only to see the person they had namevoted totally change their vote without tagging them?
@Goldfish, @Crake (especially you!!!), please don't do that in the future. When you significantly change your vote, tag the people who namevoted you and warn them.
@Duesal does that, and it's very good of him. Do the same !
Pretty sure that by the time I changed my vote to Crake, most everyone voting for me had already done so.
 
I'm not afraid of a few moral hammers to the face. It's what we voted for, after all. Not the best means of intel-gathering, but if it works...
However I'm genuinely afraid that dumbasses in the thread will vote to suddenly break out in a cathartic but stupid self-congratulating speech partway though. Or just Shadow of the Doom them all :'(
 
[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better

Voting for this because it has been acknowledged that the last update was agency killing, the rest of the fuck ups during the arc I can accept.
 
Just so long as we can swing the hammer back then I'm fine with it.

Please don't. This is just stupid. They already know about all those apocalypses - they just think that we're one of them!
And they've already fought all of those enemies (except maybe the Sultan). They just think that a strong Faith and a realm full of mid-level paladins and Clerics are an appropriate solution.
You won't convince them of anything except the size of your ego.
 
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