How big an upgrade over the Predator is this thing?
A Song Of Peace: Imperial Regent Quest [40k]
- Thread starter Swordomatic
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- hololive warhammer 40k science fiction crossover female protagonist beta-chan quest church of hope dokia breaks the world e10 forever 18 in the grim dark future there is only dokahorse little brother collection quest panda quest sui-chan wa kyou mou kawaii unangries your angron you must construct additional siblings
- Location
- in between
Predator Destructor, 9th edition:
Sicaran Battle Tank, 9th Edition:
Notes: The Sicaran has 3 heavy weapon slots, rather than 2. One is always a Heavy Bolter. The Herakles pattern cannon is twin linked.
| M | WS | BS | S | T | W! | A | Ld | Sv |
| 12" | 6+ | 3+ | 6 | 7 | 6-11 | 3 | 8 | 3+ |
| WEAPON | RANGE | TYPE | S | AP | D | ABILITIES |
| Heavy bolter | 36" | Heavy 3 | 5 | -1 | 2 | - |
Hunter-killer missile | 48" | Heavy 1 | 10 | -2 | D6 | The bearer can only shoot with each hunter-killer missile it is equipped with once per battle. |
Lascannon | 48" | Heavy 1 | 9 | -3 | D6 | - |
| Predator autocannon | 48" | Heavy 2D3 | 7 | -1 | 3 | - |
| Storm bolter | 24" | Rapid Fire 2 | 4 | 0 | 1 | - |
| WARGEAR OPTIONS | • This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 lascannons. • This model can be equipped with 1 hunter-killer missile. • This model can be equipped with 1 storm bolter. |
Sicaran Battle Tank, 9th Edition:
| M | WS | BS | S | T | W! | A | Ld | Sv |
| 14" | 6+ | 3+ | 6 | 7 | 7-14 | 3 | 8 | 2+ |
| WEAPON | RANGE | TYPE | S | AP | D | ABILITIES |
Heavy bolter | 36" | Heavy 3 | 5 | -1 | 2 | - |
| Herakles-pattern autocannon | 48" | Heavy 6 | 7 | -2 | 3 | - |
Hunter-killer missile | 48" | Heavy 1 | 10 | -2 | D6 | The bearer can only shoot with each hunter-killer missile it is equipped with once per battle. |
Lascannon | 48" | Heavy 1 | 9 | -3 | D6 | - |
Storm bolter | 24" | Rapid Fire 2 | 4 | 0 | 1 | - |
| WARGEAR OPTIONS | • This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 lascannons. • This model can be equipped with 1 hunter-killer missile. • This model can be equipped with 1 storm bolter. |
Notes: The Sicaran has 3 heavy weapon slots, rather than 2. One is always a Heavy Bolter. The Herakles pattern cannon is twin linked.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
That's not birthing Ynnead, it's more like crafting. It's not like the relationship of Lily and Pandora with Ynnead will actually be anything even vaguely approaching those of parents and child. Frankly, bringing Lily purely for that reason is just wasting a useful asset.
Isn't it up to Pandora herself to decide whether to view it that way? Certainly if you asked someone like the emperor he'd place no particular meaning on it but given how Pandora has been characterized (emotionally driven, kind, places enormous value on family, overwhelming sense of responsibility) it's hard to see her approaching it the same way. A newborn goddess she spent years of her life creating will be a daughter to her both because she wants her to be and because she's incapable of not talking responsibility for her creation
A lot. The Predator is pretty much a light tank or IFV and will get its ass handed back to it by any real tank. The biggest edge it has versus a Russ is that it is crewed by Space Marines, and therefore aims better. But it is a more complex vehicle than the Russ. The point of the Predator is that it is easier to transport.
While the Sicarian is a cool toy I will note that the Repulsor/Repulsor Executioner is a generally better one. Major techno-heresy counts for a lot.
Alpaca27
Not a Llama
Then the Mechanicus Agent is useless (seriously who even recommended that).
But if the the Agent is a big glowy figure with the Emperor's stamp, then wouldn't a Ecclesiarch agent be giga-effective? I know Celestine is doing a lot of work, but a more politically focused Agent on Terra feels like it would go a long way to smooth over the Abhuman-Mutant reform.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
The trouble with trying to challenge the interpretation of fanatics, is that they are by definition fanatical believers in their interpretation. They'll sooner come up with reasons why Pandora is in the wrong and how her evidence is false than accept that their long held beliefs are incorrect.
Right now there are already folks doubting the legitimacy of Pandora, despite Big E being the one to have declared her to be his daughter and personally appointed her as Lord Commander. Celestine is the textbook example of a Living Saint but that still hasn't been enough to get folk to shut up and listen. Not even the fact that the Emperor's Companions, the Custodes who answer only to him, being the ones to enforce the reforms have been enough to prevent these rumblings.
Relying on the Emperor's authority hasn't worked to cause the fanatics to reconsider their position, instead its gotten them to reconsider the legitimacy of those wielding his authority in his place, in spite of all evidence to the contrary that they are fully supported by the Emperor. That their beliefs run contrary to the evidence matters little when for them their beliefs are of higher import, a thing made all the more difficult by the fact that faith is inherently about groundless faith and not proven reality.
A hypothetical prophet, personally endorsed by the Emperor isn't going to be able to convince the fanatics currently foaming at the mouth, not the least when the actual prophet personally endorsed by the Emperor whom he has claimed as his progeny hasn't been able to.
Right now there are already folks doubting the legitimacy of Pandora, despite Big E being the one to have declared her to be his daughter and personally appointed her as Lord Commander. Celestine is the textbook example of a Living Saint but that still hasn't been enough to get folk to shut up and listen. Not even the fact that the Emperor's Companions, the Custodes who answer only to him, being the ones to enforce the reforms have been enough to prevent these rumblings.
Relying on the Emperor's authority hasn't worked to cause the fanatics to reconsider their position, instead its gotten them to reconsider the legitimacy of those wielding his authority in his place, in spite of all evidence to the contrary that they are fully supported by the Emperor. That their beliefs run contrary to the evidence matters little when for them their beliefs are of higher import, a thing made all the more difficult by the fact that faith is inherently about groundless faith and not proven reality.
A hypothetical prophet, personally endorsed by the Emperor isn't going to be able to convince the fanatics currently foaming at the mouth, not the least when the actual prophet personally endorsed by the Emperor whom he has claimed as his progeny hasn't been able to.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Agreed on this. Our best bet is probably approaching instead from the grassroot level and in actual educational reforms. Starting probably with the Schola Progenium. But that might have to wait for the turn after this, because you know.
Ynnead. Seriously, I think that if we want to ensure her proper birth, it might take all of our T3 Agents on top of almost all of Pandora's AP. This is one of those places where doubling down is most likely worth the effort.
- Location
- USA
A grass-roots approach does not feel likely to be successful in a reasonable timescale in terms of reaching most of the actual citizenry of the Imperium. Many worlds probably lack public education systems altogether where it is instead most likely filled by the Ecclesiarchy which would itself require an extensive subversion aside from being a bastion of anti-mutant sentiment in and of itself. On the worlds that do possess meaningful public education systems things don't look much brighter because the Imperium has no direct control over what is actually taught, local notables and sector lords would generally be doing so and it's just not possible to keep them in line as a whole. The Administratum is unimaginably overtaxed as it is, presuming that it would be possible to centralize authority and create any sort of regular curriculum at all.
The Schola Progenium is a much more promising vector but it should be acknowledged that the potential there is limited to essentially the managerial class of the Imperium and would in no way assist in lessening the prejudice of its average citizen.
While difficult, at this point it feels that subversion of the Ecclesiarchy via the Sisters of Battle and lowkey introduction of aspects of the Cults of Sacrifice would be the best option for actually reaching the typical imperial citizen but it would require a difficult purge of MUCH it's mid-level functionaries. The Wars of Faith at least provide a foot in the door in that regard, and Pandora's consistent and strong anti-chaotic may buy us some leeway in that regard with Palidorius, and while limited we may be able to some extent rely on the internal support of the Ecclesiarchy in the Imperium Nihilus as we know that the Cults of Sacrifice have much deeper reach there.
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meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
The Cult of Sacrifice should work here too. Because it is a cult after all, and we know from turn one that it had already snuck into some places of Imperial society amongst its common citizenry even when Pandora and her Deva had basically no presence in the Materium. And the Inquisition existed. And Pandora wasn't the Imperial Regent.
So a watered-down, self-censored version of the Cult that is at least somewhat more acceptable to Imperials might have its place. Focus more on philosophy of how you should live your life, while removing little facts like "Pandora is a separate god from the Emperor". Kinda like with the Promethean Cult of Vulkan and the Salamanders. Its completely sanctioned by the mainline Imperial faith, based on my understanding. Of course, what we want ours to be might have a bit more trouble getting through so easily.
Basically, subvert the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy, yes. Even have high-ranking members know about Pandora's true nature, yes. But also foster the Cult to grow up from the bottom of the society too.
- Location
- USA
I would say that in order to avoid even the pretense of challenging the basic authority of the Ecclesiarch and the basic existence of the faith that the specific way infiltration via the Cults of Sacrifice should probably take the form of as you say a self-censored version, but one specifically cultivated from within the Ecclesiarchy as opposed to just being an accepted variation of the Imperial Cult. Our conversation with Kleng some time ago indicated that from his perspective even certain mainstreams within the Ecclesiarchy are open to what Pandora is putting down. I am also reminded of our conversation with Alicia, and the danger of prematurely inviting Civil War by splitting the faith with the prospect of two harbours when one is so close and appealing and the other so distant and far away.
In my opinion, a reform within the Ecclesiarchy, especially since the Ecclesiarch is not particularly opposed to us and is obsessive in anti-chaotic affairs that it would be best to give leadership to this ideological current within the Ecclesiarchy and sanding away it's worst aspects and subfusing it into a variant of the Cult of Sacrifice; not that worship of Pandora is particularly organized in the first place. There is perhaps a certain danger in inviting so many to worship from the context of within the Imperial Cult but Pandora is also very judicious with the amount and type of sacrifice she takes, so I believe that risk is minimal, and that given we are already staring down dangerous seditious sentiments with the Navis Nobilite and the Mechanicus that it would be best to take a cautious institutionally oriented approach in regards to preventing the Ecclesiarchy from uniting against us with even a whiff of the prospect of a fully separate faith.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Personally, I was wondering if a hands-on approach like the one Pandora took when teaching the Grey Knights could be worth trying with the Sororitas. At the very least I could see them switching from open resistance to back room grumbling if Pandora went around teaching them how to discern harmless mutation from Chaos corruption. Maybe Pandora or Mona could spend some time going around teaching the Hospitallers.
I imagine as much of the present unrest is due to the uncertainty that's come with the loss of the Inquisition and the lack of an organization whose mandate is to oversee mutants. Perhaps the Ecclesiarchy is even using this as an opportunity to try and expand their remit. Things might calm down a bit if someone was given the job, even if only on paper. That could be sufficient in getting folks to stop worrying, regardless of how effective those assigned the task are in reality. Plus having the job filled would keep people from scheming to take it for themselves.
They're still Sororitas, but if the Hospitallers could be taught to where they could reliably determine what is and is not the influence of Chaos, giving them that job might be the best out of a set of bad options. An organization consisting of qualified if biased medical professionals would certainly be a better choice than entrusting the duty of discerning the nature of biological mutations in people to yet another intelligence or security agency, let alone a purely religious one.
It would also give an excuse to increase the support that the Hospitallers receive. More doctors and more funding for doctors is generally a good thing even in the shitshow that is the Imperium.
I imagine as much of the present unrest is due to the uncertainty that's come with the loss of the Inquisition and the lack of an organization whose mandate is to oversee mutants. Perhaps the Ecclesiarchy is even using this as an opportunity to try and expand their remit. Things might calm down a bit if someone was given the job, even if only on paper. That could be sufficient in getting folks to stop worrying, regardless of how effective those assigned the task are in reality. Plus having the job filled would keep people from scheming to take it for themselves.
They're still Sororitas, but if the Hospitallers could be taught to where they could reliably determine what is and is not the influence of Chaos, giving them that job might be the best out of a set of bad options. An organization consisting of qualified if biased medical professionals would certainly be a better choice than entrusting the duty of discerning the nature of biological mutations in people to yet another intelligence or security agency, let alone a purely religious one.
It would also give an excuse to increase the support that the Hospitallers receive. More doctors and more funding for doctors is generally a good thing even in the shitshow that is the Imperium.
Alpaca27
Not a Llama
Not trying to go for every last lunatic though?
Are Alicia and the Ecclesiarch unreasonable fanatics? They seem much more like the people who had beef with the Eldar, with the very understandable anger that many mutants and abhumans really are the source of a lot of treachery and chaos corruption.
And your example of Celestine, while yeah, she doesn't instantly flip last anti-Pandora fanatic, she is actively spreading our hooks throughout the galaxy when she appears.
As seen with the Sanguinius vote, active presence matters. Having one of the greatest popes of all time be revived by your god and start selling Pandora merch on Terra will absolutely have a beneficial effect.
Having Pandora dump more work on her plate by saying, "gimme all your doctors, imma teach them some new warp tricks, just trust me" feels like the kinda thing that heightened our strain with some other factions in the first place.
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It's not a bad idea IMO. The Ecclesiarchy has the most low-level penetration of any of the Adeptus in most of the Imperium. The average citizen is far, far more likely to see a Ministorum priest than they are to see an Arbites, let alone any other of the Adeptus.
The issue is though that overturning doctrine isn't going to be easy, though this is only an issue of degree in most cases(that is there are already acceptable levels of mutation/abhumans, it's a matter of moving where that line is).
One thing though is that the Psychic Awakening if we can manage it stably will greatly increase the frequency of psykers, who could with the right training have a much better shot at identifying actual real chaos corruption. Hopefully having that backstop will tamp down on people's fear.
I do think that this is something that is also just going to take time. Lots of people just aren't going to be willing to change their beliefs, but if the structure of the Imperium is pushing, we'll see younger generations shift.
Before going too far down the rabbit hole of trying to subvert the ecclesiarchy I think we should take a step back and consider whether actually reforming it is even feasible to begin with. Our goal here is to reform the imperium as a whole not each individual adeptus and deciding that a given institution is so fundamentally evil and corrupt that it's better purged is a completely valid outcome. We already purged the inquisition and there's nothing stopping us from doing the same to the religous zealots yelling about how much god loves genocide. It would almost certainly require a civil war but we're expecting to trigger one sooner or later so that's not exactly a deal-breaker
- Location
- San Francisco
If the Promethean Cult can get away with it, so can we.
Also @Swordomatic can we PWWEEEEEEEEASE have a snippy about Titus? Just for the laughs?
Individual members of the Ecclesiarchy have been portrayed fairly positively. If we destroyed every Adeptus that zealously engages in atrocities, has corrupt scumbags, or plays power games to secure its fiefdoms, we wouldn't have any Adeptus left. The Imperium is evil and that evil is part of all its institutions.
The question is what sorts of levers can we direct at an institution to reform it and the degree to which it can and will oppose our reforms. The Inquisition had to go because the Inquisition was founded on not being subject to external governance. And it was always going to oppose reforms that restricted its power because it by and large attracted people who wanted that sort of unchecked power. Pandora is the goddess of Sacrifice, not Ego, so there wasn't much avenue for infiltrating and subverting it either.
The Ecclesiarchy has many more levers, most particularly that it's an institution whose mission is about helping people, even if it thinks that often means zealotry and violence, and where Pandora's cults will attract people and blend in. And it doesn't hold itself above Imperial law(arguably it is one of the weaker Adeptus in this regard), so we can play politics and make it play ball.
We're going to trigger a civil war at some point but we want to win that civil war and ideally win it fairly decisively.
Ecclesiarchy is also a territory-holding Adeptus, just like the Administratum and the Mechanicus. Directed civil war against them will destroy the Imperium.
I have zero sympathy for the Ecclesiarchy, but I do not foresee a point where the jenga tower stays standing if we make them an enemy. The Cult of Sacrifice could excise corruption from its ranks and demand truly selfless service - but then a lot of that selfless service is just going straight to the Emperor and renewed zealotry towards genocide.
Perhaps we could try to go the other direction, and make the Ecclesiarchy implode somehow, prepared for a soft landing.
In the long-term, some kind of Pantheon of Freedom is necessary to shield against Chaotic influences. But that's uh...Anathema, Sacrifice, Death, Health (?), Comedy (??), and...Murder (???). Not exactly a stellar lineup.
I have zero sympathy for the Ecclesiarchy, but I do not foresee a point where the jenga tower stays standing if we make them an enemy. The Cult of Sacrifice could excise corruption from its ranks and demand truly selfless service - but then a lot of that selfless service is just going straight to the Emperor and renewed zealotry towards genocide.
Perhaps we could try to go the other direction, and make the Ecclesiarchy implode somehow, prepared for a soft landing.
In the long-term, some kind of Pantheon of Freedom is necessary to shield against Chaotic influences. But that's uh...Anathema, Sacrifice, Death, Health (?), Comedy (??), and...Murder (???). Not exactly a stellar lineup.
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- Location
- San Francisco
What would the portfolio of the Tau'va be, you reckon? Cooperation?
It's also worth noting that the Eldar get a type advantage against Slaanesh as well, courtesy of their hatred of it and millennia of experience fighting their forces.
As for the other Chaos Gods showing up, remember that these beings are not ones for cooperation. Assuming they show up instead of taking large amounts of Slaaneshi territory while its defenders are elsewhere, the odds of them playing nice are effectively nil. They're almost more likely to fight each other than us!
Again, it's not just going to be Pandora. The Craftworlders will be bringing all they have that's available, plus whatever Corsairs are available to be hired. We're talking about a force that would make your average Black Crusade bounce like it's on a goddamn trampoline here.
I sincerely hope you are wrong. Mainly because I think there's an extremely high probability that Ynnead and Michael will end up together, assuming that we birth one and free the other. The benefits of such a marriage in terms of legitimacy are simply too massive to ignore. Each has a strong claim to the rulership of all Aeldari (Michael through his connection to the old Aeldari Empire, Ynnead through being their savior in this new Age). Together though, such a dynasty would make even Biel-Tan sit down and shut up.
- Location
- San Francisco
It's also much easier to envision than say, Bobby G and Yvraine hooking up. One titillating encounter does not a romance make. Much as we might wish.
I see where you're coming from but forcing a girl who hasn't been born yet and our little brother we've never even met into an arranged marriage just because it would be politically convenient is precisely the kind of thing we're trying to avoid. The imperium got to where it is by treating people as tools and if Pandora wants to fix anything she has to be better than that
Alpaca27
Not a Llama
I know Ynnead is going to be a "newborn" but I never really got the vibe that she was going to be anything other than an adult straight out, through godly warp shenanigans.
In the same way Slaanesh didn't really have a toddler period before jumping the entire Eldar Pantheon, I'm not seeing Ynnead being an impressionable kid sister for Pandora to dote on (cute as that would be).
In the same way Slaanesh didn't really have a toddler period before jumping the entire Eldar Pantheon, I'm not seeing Ynnead being an impressionable kid sister for Pandora to dote on (cute as that would be).