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“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

Would you Distort or manifest EGO?

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questioningmeme said:
They could easily with "I wish no one would ever lie to me anymore."
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That is not a mind reading power, that's more of a universal lie detector. You will know if someone is lying, but not exactly what they're lying about unless you engage with narrowing it down through farther questions.
Edit: Also, if QB didn't get hit with "cannot tell lies" 100 times over I'd be shocked.
 
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questioningmeme said:
As for pointing that out...leave that for later. The situations where we can play that card aren't present right now.
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We could always replace mentions of Walpurgis with mentions of Whitenight. X has reason to be afraid that bastard will show up, and it probably has an entry in Madoka's book. Plus, the sooner anyone knows about that thing the less we have to worry about plague doctor making them an apostle if it shows up instead of WN.
 
Talow said:
That is not a mind reading power, that's more of a universal lie detector. You will know if someone is lying, but not exactly what they're lying about unless you engage with narrowing it down through farther questions.
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Yeah. And Homura got time stop + time reversal.

Mami got fricking Ribbons that she can turn into guns. Wish magic is weird. Lurker's example of wishing to understand people better could also easily work.
 
Talow said:
Edit: Also, if QB didn't get hit with "cannot tell lies" 100 times over I'd be shocked.
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Another tangent, but since Magic was mostly public (?) at one point, it's not unlikely QB's QBness is at least partially caused by a ton of conflicting Wishes hitting it.

QB's system is really a tragedy on so many levels - it's easy to come up with off-the-norm Wishes and powers, and the character conflicts thereof, but if you don't meet the mental stability and combat ability bar none of the above matters because you'd just die

E: Moving back to topic, what arguments were we even collecting to use? It's been so many pages, I no longer remember
The most recent one is to encourage NT to discard it's Shell to help us for future Combat (WN or Wally), with the added reasoning that since we did it to help others it's not that much of a loss [or something along those lines]
 
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Lurker183839 said:
The most recent one is to encourage NT to discard it's Shell to help us for future Combat (WN or Wally), with the added reasoning that since we did it to help others it's not that much of a loss [or something along those lines]
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The main one I have seen that seems to be IC for X and most likely for NT to accept is "It's something a human would do". And that X will support NT every step of the way as NT tries to become more human.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Lurker183839 on Nov 16, 2022 at 11:07 PM, finished with 326 posts and 37 votes.
  • [x] Plan: honest negotiation 101:
    -[x] Begin attachment work on NT, ask questions, try to learn more, stop if they seem to become too unstable. You want to learn more about them as a person.
    -[x] You may have an alternative to his… her… thei.. actually, first thing first: what pronoun should we use? (Using they in my vote for ease of writing)
    -[x] You may have an alternative to *insert pronoun* method to become human, after all, they can see it right now, you appear and act human right now, what would they think if trying to test if it works for them? Later, of course.
    -[x] By the way, how did they make the illusion and what is Kyubey following right now?
    -[x] You can accept them as an employee, but you'll have to say no to their offer to be Kyouko for you, Mami would be devastated if she learned that you accepted this, you should come clean to her if you want to do this.
    -[x] There is more to being human than a body, they seems to get that, but you can help in this, you can teach them.
    [X]The situation is not yet unsalvageable. Talk to i-her. Ayin's past taught you what poor communication does to people, and how to avoid making the same mistakes. There has to be a way for everyone to get what they want.
    [X] Try to Convince Nothing There this isn't the way. There's other options. You made a Cage out of your own EGO, surely it-, or she, of she prefers, can at least let you try to do the same for her. A Shell made of herself. She saw how Lobotomy worked, after all. Those Soul Gems can't take the strain of what she's doing to them, and we know it's hurting the girls inside. X doesn't want that. Anything worth calling human doesn't want that.
    -[X] If it continues to refuses, or gets violent, pretend to back down. Ask to at least check on the gems it's had longest with Lobotomy. After it either lets them get checked, or refuses, say that your willing to take the deal until you can figure out something better. The moment you feel that's guard is down, telepathy Homura, and tell her to time stop and get here to bring you into timestop. Then hit Nothing There with Lobotomy, either to put it to sleep so you can safely extract the Soul Gems, or cut it off from the Soul Gems magic and stop the pain.
    [X] plan desperate hope
    -[X]The situation is not yet unsalvageable. Talk to i-her. Ayin's past taught you what poor communication does to people, and how to avoid making the same mistakes. There has to be a way for everyone to get what they want. Negotiate via Attachement work and gather information
    -[X] Ask her to let you go through with the Lobotomy session. Not to take any of the Soul Gems away from her, but to make sure they aren't being harmed or at risk of dying.
    -[X] Gather as much information without triggering Nothing There's aggression, during lobotomy gather as much information as possible and figure out their plan
    -[X] if you can not reach a good agreement, reluctantly accept and wait until you are strong enough to suppress them
    -[X] Set the various souls to some sort of hibernation if possible and ask nothing there to be careful not to hurt or break further
    -[X] find substitutes for the soul gems if at all possible, even get kyubeys help
    -[X] backpedal on the 'i could help make you human' comment and apologize for it. Claim it was insensitive and based on preconceived notions of what Nothing There was like in the facility.
    -[X] Nothing There is for all intents and purposes, a child. A very powerful child trying to understand the world and how to fit in with those around her. She is absolutely a person. A human, even if she doesn't have the shape of one, or a full understanding of morals and societal expectations. So now... Her next step should be to solidify herself. Learn what she wants to do and be now that she's 'won' her main battle. Help her with it where possible, Treat her as a child, as human, and teach her. Especially human biology, psychology, morality and developing her own identity as a person. First Step a Name, not just an Epithet but an actual name, and what pronouns they wish to use
    -[X] politely accept nothing there's offer to be an employee but decline her hecoming kyouko and find some way to gently break the truth to the others via telepathy afterwards and ask them to not attack and for them to simply treat Nothing there as a particularly volatile magical girl who is in desperate need of help, then Properly introduce them by inviting them in with Nothing there's permission, Yuma First then the others
    [X] Give Kyoko her privacy while performing the scan.
    [X] tell nothing there that it could ask for shell from X as she also now Abnormality with most human shell and promise that it can help you more this ways……
    [X] Hug her
    [x] Plan: Hopeful Bargaining
    -[X] Try to convince Nothing There that there are other ways to go about this. We know that what she is doing is overwhelming their minds and we wish to help both them and you. Mention that our body is also a shell and that if it desires we can try to help build her one as well. Ask them if they would be willing to work with us through this.
    --[X] If they are still willing to work with us ask if we could perform Lobotomy on the gems.
    ---[X] If yes assist the gems and start doing our best to form bodies for both them and Nothing There (Prioritize Nothing There's)
    ---[X] If no ask if we could try to use Sound of A Star instead.
    --[X] Be prepared to dodge if they do not wish to
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I pity the poor QM who has to parse all of this NGL. Currently the sentiment is stalling/getting more information? Need some time to reconstruct arguments from this mess

E: Arguments I could find
Lurker183839 said:
The most recent one
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0: Attempt to reset the conversation somehow
1: Offering an alternative method
2: Suggesting there is something more to becoming human that NT doesn't know and that we can help with
3: use Lobotomy to help with the MG's situation
4: Adopt NT, essentially (to attempt to guide NT's next steps)

@Nyarky
-[X] By the way, how did they make the illusion and what is Kyubey following right now?
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I don't think this is appropriate, as either the answer is "I don't know', or "it's me, but how did you know/why do you care?", and I don't think that's going to end well
 
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I'll probably call the vote in a few hours. It's earlier than I had planned for, but it's been a while since the last vote and it looks like it might be a while before this conversation concludes itself. Plus, unless a huge upset happens out of nowhere the result seems already decided.
 
Personally I think currently, X needs to work out how to get the 37 soul gems away from Nothing There. Diplomacy, Violence, Trickery? All valid options, all of which currently benefit from stalling for time/getting more info.
 
I want more information about what NT means by the human part of becoming human. What qualities do they perceive humanity as having that they feel they lack? I feel like that could open more lines of inquiry and alternatives to the current situation.
 
Human speech considering it is keep trying to perfect its language.
Human autonomy, considering she is is keep on trying to stuff human organs into herself to make her inside look more human
Human appearance, considering the shell.
And human thought patterns, Even if he cannot understand it in the slightest.
But it is still missing something. So it's still looking for something by taking a tons of shell and discarding them without realizing that, oh, the something that I might be missing is human emotion/Empathy/soul
edit:...And I just realized something, if abnos cannot change for the better or become something new or remove itself from its base idea, then he is gonna stuck in that state forever, even if we take her in.
She is gonna stuck forever looking to become a human but cannot because her base idea is something that is mimicking human and can be so foreverly close to one, but fundamentally cannot be a human because it is just wrong.
 
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That's a good question... If NT can't become human then we are in a notable problem, she will never give up the gems...
Is there proof that abbos can change in this quest? The only thing that I considered weird in an abno behavior was the Punishing Bird Sapling, which had the condition of "change". What does change have to do with that bird??? Aside from that...
 
Docere AcDiscere said:
The only thing that I considered weird in an abno behavior was the Punishing Bird Sapling, which had the condition of "change". What does change have to do with that bird??? Aside from that...
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"Change" is derived from Punishing Bird's end goal. They punish evildoers in an attempt to change the world, so that people will no longer commit sins.
 
questioningmeme said:
Yeah. And Homura got time stop + time reversal.
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Homura explicitly wished to redo her reunion, time powers is hardly a surprise.

questioningmeme said:
Mami got fricking Ribbons that she can turn into guns.
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Mami used a Japanese saying about being connected to life to wish to survive, that's why she got ribbons to connect things. As for the *turn them into guns*, she's just that good.

Lurker183839 said:
I don't think this is appropriate, as either the answer is "I don't know', or "it's me, but how did you know/why do you care?", and I don't think that's going to end well
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Why wouldn't it be appropriate? Doing *idle* talk can help the atmosphere, and even an *I don't know* gives us information. Why wouldn't NT likes it, it's curiosity towards them and asking their opinion, they will probably gush about how they got magic and speculate with us about who Kyubey is chasing, not lash put for no reason.
 
I've just had the sudden thought of what if the reason QB didn't notice anything odd about Kyoko is because they was checking for the soul stone, and finding it present.
 
"Ah yes, this is Kyouko, Soul Gem is present, and this is Soujus, and 34 other contractees, it is surprising the soujuus are willing and able to convince so many girls to share a body but Such is humanity"

(Also, since the Soujus were caught, it's possible most of the soul gems were from their collection)
 
[Future] ask QB to contact Kyoko/use telepathy to get in contact with Kyoko.

Mostly because I'm now curious who exactly it'd connect to.
 
Nyarky said:
That general feeling is why I want to ask if NT used Kyouko's feelings to talk to Mami, it is currently the only offset we can have to the feeling of betrayal she's going to go through, frankly, while I will want to keep an eye for Sayaka being Sayaka when we present the situation, my biggest arguments are probably going to be centered on Mami, she is the one most likely to outright break from it, as you say.
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I have no objection to asking NT that. I feel the answer will be most likely yes. But it will take a special kind of framing for this fact to actually comfort Mami instead of making things worse, for the reasons I stated in my last post. As you say, that conversation will be a minefield.
thelordofmango said:
I want more information about what NT means by the human part of becoming human. What qualities do they perceive humanity as having that they feel they lack? I feel like that could open more lines of inquiry and alternatives to the current situation.
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It has to be something that it feels hoarding more soul gems will help with. Three ideas for this, ordered by increasing degree of wild metaphorical interpretation and speculation:
  1. A soul to call its own, a bit on the nose.
  2. A purpose/desire other than becoming human. Each soul gem represents one human's wish.
  3. Adoration, acquired by becoming Manager. Parroting "I Love You" wasn't just for show. It admires Manager because "[e]veryone always trusted and believed in them so much" (Sidestory 4). It values X's acceptance, but not so much as to give up its soul gems since that would ruin its LARP of managing "employees". Note how it views X with a mixture of "adoration and hunger" (Chapter 68). Anyway, it doesn't care about its employees' misery right now because once it acquires a magical number of them it will have a full Lobotomy Corporation and the adoration will come in true cargo cult fashion. Also the corporation had plenty of misery anyway.
[X] Plan: honest negotiation 101
 
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Talow said:
[Future] ask QB to contact Kyoko/use telepathy to get in contact with Kyoko.

Mostly because I'm now curious who exactly it'd connect to.
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Well, we did do it in a way and the result was getting *totally Kyouko, I swear*?

Wait, rereading, she was the one to contact us:
Lepidoptera said:
Before you can begin to contemplate that decision, you hear a voice. Telepathy, but not Kyubey as you're used to.

"Hey, X! Remember how I asked you to help if I ever bit off more than I could chew?" The contact pauses abruptly, then resumes. "Well, I could really use that help right about now. It's weird too, so it might be that thing you're looking for."
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But it does prove that we would most likely get NT if they were hidden as Kyouko when we do it, since they definitely are in the telepathy network.

Edit:
Suleverf said:
A purpose/desire other than becoming human. Each soul gem represents one human's wish.
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Possible.

Suleverf said:
Parroting "I Love You" wasn't just for show. It admires Manager because "[e]veryone always trusted and believed in them so much" (Sidestory 4).
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Actually, the *I love you* could be a *thank you for this shell, this is great!* expressed in a very raw form, alternatively:
Suleverf said:
Note how it views X with a mixture of "adoration and hunger"
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The chapter does point out that they are almost *checking us out*, so *I love you* could be very literal.

Though, hmm, sorry NT, but you are too young emotionally right now for me to even think of making X returns the feelings, regardless of all the other problems with this.

Suleverf said:
  1. Anyway, it doesn't care about its employees' misery right now because once it acquires a magical number of them it will have a full Lobotomy Corporation and the adoration will come in true cargo cult fashion. Also the corporation had plenty of misery anyway.
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I think the last sentence is very important to keep in mind, NT grew up in a hellhole, a place where *living till tomorrow* is worthy of praise. Where everyone is in some state of despair. If that's what they saw most of the time, it is no surprise that they don't even register the gems' agony as not normal, because it IS *normal* for them.
 
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