In theory, in general, and in the abstract, the Colleges have the responsibility to go after magic users... among a long, long list of other responsibilities. That means the Hedgewise largely stay on the backburner as long as they keep quiet about it or stick to remote areas. A theoretical... Hedge College? would have their legal privileges and protections based on them having and enforcing a monopoly on the legitimate use of Hedgecraft, and they won't be able to argue any lack of knowledge about them to put off doing so.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
In theory, in general, and in the abstract, the Colleges have the responsibility to go after magic users... among a long, long list of other responsibilities. That means the Hedgewise largely stay on the backburner as long as they keep quiet about it or stick to remote areas. A theoretical... Hedge College? would have their legal privileges and protections based on them having and enforcing a monopoly on the legitimate use of Hedgecraft, and they won't be able to argue any lack of knowledge about them to put off doing so.
Adrian XXIV
Average User, from Poland
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Problem with Hedgewise is that it's group of "divine casters" divided into three sub-groups, from which each group worships different God.
"Legalising" Hedgewise would involve one of groups condemning other two as "Heretics", which is what neither of three Hedgewise sub-groups wants
"Legalising" Hedgewise would involve one of groups condemning other two as "Heretics", which is what neither of three Hedgewise sub-groups wants
- Location
- Washington
Again, I'll note that this is specifically the case IF you try to legalize them on the basis of "this is divine secrets of x god." if you just legalize them on the basis of "hedgefolk/hedgecraft is legal now. On what basis? 'fuck you' is the basis, I'm the emperor and what i say goes/i'm an electoral count and what i say goes in my province." That problem is completely nonexistent.
- Location
- Australia
That would need multiple traditions to agree that they are in fact all practitioners of hedgecraft. They would prefer to get persecuted.
- Location
- Finland
Emperor is not a dictator, while they might be able to legalize some form of magic, their ability to enforce it, and make it stick after theyare gone, would be very limited, same for elector counts.
Colleges are interesting because they got a buy in from literally everyone.
Elementalists are weird and got through largely because the emperor at the time did not really care about anything beyond bribes they could get, and nobody has had much of a reason/will to go after them.
Not sure how well it would go with the hedgefolk.
Colleges are interesting because they got a buy in from literally everyone.
Elementalists are weird and got through largely because the emperor at the time did not really care about anything beyond bribes they could get, and nobody has had much of a reason/will to go after them.
Not sure how well it would go with the hedgefolk.
- Location
- Washington
My understanding is they do not disagree that they are practicioners of hedgecraft. what they disagree on is where the hell hedgecraft comes from.
The bolded is wrong, given the existence of the cult of sigmar. The emperor legalized the elementalists entirely on the basis of bribes, not because there was any real base of support. Nuln specifically MAYBE liked this and no one else did, at last one major entity absolutely disliked it. It stuck despite that.
- Location
- Australia
If that were true, there wouldn't be a problem, but there is a problem, so that isn't true.
- Location
- Finland
Reason or Will.
For whatever reason, the Cult of Sigmar has not gone after the Elementalists.
Maybe they just keep their heads down outside cities, maybe Sigmarites are otherwise busy, maybe Ulricans have decided to stop Sigmarites as a lark.
But for whatever reason, the usual suspects have not gone out of their way to deal with Elementalists.
- Location
- Washington
No, there would very much be a problem if they disagree on "where hedgecraft comes from" when the basis you're trying to legalize hedgraft on is "hedgecraft comes from x."
- Location
- Australia
Why would that be the basis Hedgecraft would be legalised under? All that really needs to be proven is that it's not Dark Magic or Chaos, which is trivial.
- Location
- Washington
Because that's the runaround people have in the past tried to suggest could be use to argue 'maybe really hedgecraft has been legal this whole time and we don't need a new law set up by someone with the power to make laws.' Such a premise could legalize JUST the verenan hedgefolk or JUST the ranaldite hedgefolk, or JUST the halethan hedgefolk, but couldn't legalize all of them.
"Forwhatever reason" perhaps being "the emperor did in fact legalize them even though he did it on the basis of a bribe."
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
Yeah, like if we don't get the armour, i'd not be very interested in runed Ilthilmar armour, i'd much rather we try and go for the we-silk options and try out something with windherding, sounds a lot more interesting then runed ilthilmar armour to me.
- Location
- Finland
Magnus legalized the colleges, and he did it for far greater reason, and with farmore popularity and backing, that did not stop the Cult of Sigmar from trying to get rid of them.
What no-one seems to have realised up till now is that the 'Armour' part of 'Armour of Von Tarnus' is, in fact, short for 'Armoured Personnel Carrier'.
Obviously, this means the armour vote is really just a variant of the flying ship vote and they therefore may be counted as the same for tallying purposes, thus solving the impasse. No need to thank me.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Don't forget that the Airship Personnel Carrier of von Tarnus will have eight internal compartments, one from each College. So we can throw Plan Pickle Requests in there, too.
Honestly, I like all the leading options, even if I prefer the armor.
However this goes, I think it will be great.
However this goes, I think it will be great.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
The question would be why Hedgefolk would draw more ire than Elementalists. I guess Elementalists live/congregate in a major city that is inherently both more cosmopolitan and more centrally controlled, where Hedgewise would have to content with random peasant pogroms that then get backed up by Witch Hunters if they fight back (or even if they don't). And Wizards of the eight Colleges can just use lethal force to defend themselves wherever they are in the Empire and have political, legal and military backing by many many institutions all around, even against the whole Church of Sigmar if necessary.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
That's probably a lot of it.
Hedge magic is useful, but it's not the kind of useful that can convince Elector-Counts that they're worth protecting.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Legalizing the Hedgefolk could also have the potential for causing some fairly significant religious schism and political strife, for very little gain.
Like, first of all Haletha is, to my knowledge, a goddess worshipped almost exclusively by the hedgefolk and associated communities. Claiming that their magic stems from Haletha would potentially result in a bunch of Sigmarite priests and witch hunters trying to declare Haletha as linked to chaos, and/or start exerting political pressure to get her worship banned. They've done it before. There was a Riekland god of revelry whose worship got suppressed and outlawed on suspicion of being somehow Slaaneshi, despite there being no evidence that this is the case. And didn't Haletha's worshippers get persecuted and almost wiped out by Taalites? Because that might be an issue trying to get them legalized.
Secondly, while the Verenan faith is fairly decentralized and generally pretty tolerant, local leaders are still people, still wield a fair amount of spiritual and temporal influence, and may not react well to being told that Verena has granted magic to these hedgewise, and take it as an attack on their own authority.
I can't remember if there are Rhya and/or Taal worshipping hedge-wise, but if there are, let's remember that Rhya and Taal have an at least somewhat organized cult, one which wields significant temporal power in Talabcland, and have their own political interests. And claiming authority annd jurisdiction over any Rhya or Taalite hedgewise would potentially be a way for them to gain more power. And that's assuming they don't just see them as a threat and start trying to get rid of them.
Ranaldan hedge-wise don't have to worry about Ranaldite worshipers going after them in any official capacity, because Ranald worshipers are decentralized and fairly tolerant. But given Ranald's reputation, how do you think the rest of the empire would react to a group of witches who claim to derive their magic from Ranald. A god of thieves, trickery is bad enough. But Ranald the Protector is basically a god of a sort of pseudo-anarchism. The nobility is not going to like that one bit.
Like, first of all Haletha is, to my knowledge, a goddess worshipped almost exclusively by the hedgefolk and associated communities. Claiming that their magic stems from Haletha would potentially result in a bunch of Sigmarite priests and witch hunters trying to declare Haletha as linked to chaos, and/or start exerting political pressure to get her worship banned. They've done it before. There was a Riekland god of revelry whose worship got suppressed and outlawed on suspicion of being somehow Slaaneshi, despite there being no evidence that this is the case. And didn't Haletha's worshippers get persecuted and almost wiped out by Taalites? Because that might be an issue trying to get them legalized.
Secondly, while the Verenan faith is fairly decentralized and generally pretty tolerant, local leaders are still people, still wield a fair amount of spiritual and temporal influence, and may not react well to being told that Verena has granted magic to these hedgewise, and take it as an attack on their own authority.
I can't remember if there are Rhya and/or Taal worshipping hedge-wise, but if there are, let's remember that Rhya and Taal have an at least somewhat organized cult, one which wields significant temporal power in Talabcland, and have their own political interests. And claiming authority annd jurisdiction over any Rhya or Taalite hedgewise would potentially be a way for them to gain more power. And that's assuming they don't just see them as a threat and start trying to get rid of them.
Ranaldan hedge-wise don't have to worry about Ranaldite worshipers going after them in any official capacity, because Ranald worshipers are decentralized and fairly tolerant. But given Ranald's reputation, how do you think the rest of the empire would react to a group of witches who claim to derive their magic from Ranald. A god of thieves, trickery is bad enough. But Ranald the Protector is basically a god of a sort of pseudo-anarchism. The nobility is not going to like that one bit.
Uhhh, have I missed something? Elementalism is terrible at battlemagic because as soon as enough wind accumulates their constructs go poof. A battlefield will rapidly accumulate shyish and probably some aqshy over the high running emotions...
Edit: and for the reason why the witch hunters haven't yet gone for the elementalists, my guess is twofold.
A) nuln likes them and when witch hunters try to get funny with them the city goes "you try that and we will try if we can't take that funny hat off of you with the great cannons."
B) because their main clientele is iirc nobles and that carries a lot of weight.
Edit: and for the reason why the witch hunters haven't yet gone for the elementalists, my guess is twofold.
A) nuln likes them and when witch hunters try to get funny with them the city goes "you try that and we will try if we can't take that funny hat off of you with the great cannons."
B) because their main clientele is iirc nobles and that carries a lot of weight.
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consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Elementalists should be excellent against Orcs as I understand things, along with skirmishes against anyone who didn't bring a mage or shaman to the party. I don't think ambient Winds accumulate fast enough to do them over to the extent that you describe or they wouldn't be able to function at all.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Re:Hedgewise, the problem is way worse than whether you can get the various branches to agree on a single source of their magic. Even if you can do that, every single Hedgewise branch casts differently because liminal boundaries inherently vary way more than the Winds:
This is not a problem with any perfect solution. Even if you want to be 'fair' and place the new 'Hedge College' somewhere that doesn't benefit any of the existing Hedgewise branches, that means that a) they're all equally unhappy because they all have to let go of their culture and b) you actually have to establish a new curriculum for them to get used to.
The best pie-in-the-sky way I can think you could make it work is if you had Teclis go 'I can absolutely make a new curriculum that works for ALL of you' and he establishes a more universal way that works for them (e.g. the boundary between those who are involved in magic and those who are not).
This is not a problem with any perfect solution. Even if you want to be 'fair' and place the new 'Hedge College' somewhere that doesn't benefit any of the existing Hedgewise branches, that means that a) they're all equally unhappy because they all have to let go of their culture and b) you actually have to establish a new curriculum for them to get used to.
The best pie-in-the-sky way I can think you could make it work is if you had Teclis go 'I can absolutely make a new curriculum that works for ALL of you' and he establishes a more universal way that works for them (e.g. the boundary between those who are involved in magic and those who are not).
It's good at Battle Magic as long as there aren't large amounts of Winds around. In this quest, at least.
I mean, in normal spaces I don't doubt it's stays fairly calm but a battlefield where an army is fighting and dying seems like it would accumulate certain winds rapidly in great quantities.
Edit: actually that's a good @Boney question. Does naturally accumulating winds (like shyish on a somewhat deadly battlefield) interfere with elementalism?
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