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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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Simon_Jester said:
I dunno. Remember, if we want to be in a strong position after we inherit the Iron Throne, we need Rhaenyra to start cultivating an entourage of her own and some people she can rely on to have her back.

A few legal and financial experts to help us process information about our own estates and who we can eventually promote into our own advisors as queen when we're ready, for instance.

A reliable core of personal household servants who won't tattle if they walk in on us with Alicent, for instance.

An actual proto-Master of Whispers, for instance, who can take that role when we take the throne.

Some of those will be people we want to leave behind in King's Landing to be our eyes and ears while we're in Sunspear, but others we'll want to be moving back and forth with us.

Observe how most of Rhaenyra's royal progress was taking place aboard ships and horseback even though we had our dragon along the whole time. Observe how Prince Qoren came here with at least one literal whole-ass shipload of people. There's a reason for that; princes travel in style, and adding an extra "s" to that sentence doesn't change the dynamic. Which means that having to make the trip 2-3 times in a year instead of one is going to be somewhat burdensome, or is going to force us to accept inconveniences in order to make the trip on dragonback.
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You don't drag these people with you wherever you go though. Especially people like clerks, bureaucrats and spies usually stay where they are the most useful and that will likely be King's Landing, unless we start doing so much business in Sunspear that we need our own people there.

Also, why exactly would we have to make the trip 2-3 times a year? At that point we would be living in Drone and occasionally visiting King's Landing, given that each turn is 3 months.

Zimmerwald1915 said:
It's not clear what will happen to Bloodstone if Daemon does not see fit to rule it. It is also not clear what, if any, consequences would follow from his embezzling his fortification grant (for example, if he spent it on bribes or sellswords). I would see these items clarified, and if they cannot be, it would weigh against the agreement.
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Pretty sure that Bloodstone falls to Corlys if Daemon doesn't want it. What isn't clear is if Daemon would be sworn to Corlys, given that the latter gets jurisdiction over the Stepstones in their entirety, or if he would be sworn to the Iron Throne directly.
 
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Azel said:
Pretty sure that Bloodstone falls to Corlys if Daemon doesn't want it. What isn't clear is if Daemon would be sworn to Corlys, given that the latter gets jurisdiction over the Stepstones in their entirety, or if he would be sworn to the Iron Throne directly.
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While that would make a certain amount of sense, the agreement as summarized doesn't say so, and Corlys may have waived his claim by crowning Daemon in the first place. And I would very much like to avoid Dorne and House Velaryon getting into a dispute about who it belongs to when Daemon eventually abandons it. In fact, what I'd like to see is Bloodstone reverting to the Iron Throne if Daemon abandons it, since it's just such an honest broker (and edited in an explicit term to that effect).

10ebbor10 said:
Demand our own party.
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I mean, it's called "our wedding."
 
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Terms for Terms God!

I put two change from previous terms. Widening Sunspear to Dorne and adding Prince Qoren to the responsibility also directly from the wedding.
-[ ] Upon the wedding of Princess Rhaenyra and Prince Qoren, Rhaenyra will strive to visit Dorne for a few months every year, health and weather permitting and Prince Qoren will do the same for Rhaenyra in King's Landing.
--[ ] The obligations early increase maintain court power of Rhaenyra and accelerate integration of Dorne both by Qoren visit and Rhaenyra wider visit.

Teen Spirit said:
- The Iron Throne will cede minor lands currently held by the Stormlander lords that rightfully belong to Dorne. In exchange, Dorne will do the same for those lands that belong to a number of Reacher houses.
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We can see Otto hands here that he decrease Stormland power and strengthened Reach one while clearly deflecting the blame to the Crown. Also it could be net productive lost for Dorne as Reach land is more fertile than Stormland in average. Once again we must be cautious in regard to Otto.

Azel said:
Also, why exactly would we have to make the trip 2-3 times a year? At that point we would be living in Drone and occasionally visiting King's Landing, given that each turn is 3 months.
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That could be better as half-half Sunspear-Kingslanding living. Why need multiple trip if two trip home and away is enough?

Zimmerwald1915 said:
-[] Insist that the boundaries between House Peake and its Dornish neighbors are well-drawn and sensible and should not be adjusted.
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Also will support any option that make sure Peake is not benefitted in anyway from this.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
I dunno. Remember, if we want to be in a strong position after we inherit the Iron Throne, we need Rhaenyra to start cultivating an entourage of her own and some people she can rely on to have her back.

A few legal and financial experts to help us process information about our own estates and who we can eventually promote into our own advisors as queen when we're ready, for instance.

A reliable core of personal household servants who won't tattle if they walk in on us with Alicent, for instance.

An actual proto-Master of Whispers, for instance, who can take that role when we take the throne.

Some of those will be people we want to leave behind in King's Landing to be our eyes and ears while we're in Sunspear, but others we'll want to be moving back and forth with us.
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Well, that would still be 20 people at most, which they can fit comfortably in a boat...

And if these calculations are right, the travel time from KL to Sunspear is around 10 days by boat, which is reasonable enough to be able to send our entourage to Sunspear in advance for a couple months visit...
 
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Azel said:
You don't drag these people with you wherever you go though. Especially people like clerks, bureaucrats and spies usually stay where they are the most useful and that will likely be King's Landing, unless we start doing so much business in Sunspear that we need our own people there.
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The thing is, we'll want some of our people with us, if only to help us interpret whatever messages are coming in via raven and so we have someone we trust to help us understand the situation on the ground in Dorne.

Also, why exactly would we have to make the trip 2-3 times a year? At that point we would be living in Drone and occasionally visiting King's Landing, given that each turn is 3 months.
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Someone was talking about splitting up the trips into one month 2-3 times a year instead of three months once a year. I was replying to that and my point was that in that scenario the need to have a ship sailing back and forth over and over from King's Landing to Sunspear would start to add up.

Fanhunter696 said:
Well, that would still be 20 people at most, which they can fit comfortably in a boat...

And if these calculations are right, the travel time from KL to Sunspear is around 10 days by boat, which is reasonable enough to be able to send our entourage to Sunspear in advance for a couple months visit...
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Yes, doing it once is fine, it's if we were doing it 2-3 times like the person I was originally replying to seemed to want done that there'd be a problem. Because three round-trips by ship is two months out of the year, plus significantly increased exposure to things like shipwrecks which do happen in this era.
 
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God certain elemets of this thread have been so annoying over this Dorne stuff, saying as someone who's greatest priority prior to these negotiations was wanting to conquer it at the head of an Army, chill ur asses.

ANYWAY, this writes off the Stormlands pretty heavily(at least, the marcher sections) but wins us points with he Reacher lords which i say is woth it, if we can start anardent Rhaenyra block from Oldtown to, whatver Tarly's Keep is called that wins us a really strong souhern bulwark, and lets our Dornish army avoid the trecherous Stormland Dornish marches via the Prince's Pass(I hope we can get the Kingsroad in Dorne called The Princessroad or something, maybe make a progress through it when it gets completed?) honestly outside some quibbling abt Bloodstone im really fine with this deal, we get to make it known that Corly's conquest is safeguarde via our marriage, we get a sick infastructure project, and we bury the hatchet(or, Spear in this case)
 
Might as well since there's a bunch of miner quibbles I have.

[X] Plan A Few Details
-[X] Ask for the visit requirement to be changed so that both you pledge to visit Dorne regularly and that Qoren will visit the other parts of the realm regularly with you.
--[X] It makes sense to broaden the focus from Sunspear to all of Dorne, since visiting other Dornish lords would help your standing and the process of unification. Likewise, Qoren should ensure that he is a known figure in the rest of the Seven Kingsdoms before the wedding to ease their concerns and grumbling. He is good at wining people over and should leverage that for the benefit of our union.
-[X] Ask to review the border adjustments. You want to make sure that no mistakes, like awarding land to House Peake, have snuck in.

Ultimately I'm good though. So, approval voting accepting terms as is.

[X] Accept them as is (This Will Put Rhaenyra in a Binding Betrothal)
 
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Toaster cult said:
ANYWAY, this writes off the Stormlands pretty heavily(at least, the marcher sections) but wins us points with he Reacher lords which i say is woth it, if we can start anardent Rhaenyra block from Oldtown to, whatver Tarly's Keep is called that wins us a really strong souhern bulwark, and lets our Dornish army avoid the trecherous Stormland Dornish marches via the Prince's Pass(I hope we can get the Kingsroad in Dorne called The Princessroad or something, maybe make a progress through it when it gets completed?)
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It may gives land to Unwin Peake! We should safe guard it to reward Reach potential loyalist and punish hostile lord.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The thing is, we'll want some of our people with us, if only to help us interpret whatever messages are coming in via raven and so we have someone we trust to help us understand the situation on the ground in Dorne.

Someone was talking about splitting up the trips into one month 2-3 times a year instead of three months once a year. I was replying to that and my point was that in that scenario the need to have a ship sailing back and forth over and over from King's Landing to Sunspear would start to add up.

Yes, doing it once is fine, it's if we were doing it 2-3 times like the person I was originally replying to seemed to want done that there'd be a problem. Because three round-trips by ship is two months out of the year, plus significantly increased exposure to things like shipwrecks which do happen in this era.
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Realistically we will be spending one full turn every year in Sunspsear. That fulfills our obligations and makes sense for us to do simply from the perspective that we will definitely be having dealings there that need attending now and then.

There's not much of a problem to have people boat around for about 3 weeks a year while we just fly over on Syrax.
 
Toaster cult said:
ANYWAY, this writes off the Stormlands pretty heavily(at least, the marcher sections) but wins us points with he Reacher lords which i say is woth it, if we can start anardent Rhaenyra block from Oldtown to, whatver Tarly's Keep is called that wins us a really strong souhern bulwark, and lets our Dornish army avoid the trecherous Stormland Dornish marches via the Prince's Pass(I hope we can get the Kingsroad in Dorne called The Princessroad or something, maybe make a progress through it when it gets completed?) honestly outside some quibbling abt Bloodstone im really fine with this deal, we get to make it known that Corly's conquest is safeguarde via our marriage, we get a sick infastructure project, and we bury the hatchet(or, Spear in this case)
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The Stormlands getting the short end of the stick was pretty much inevitable given that a Reacher was part of the negotiations, but no Stormlanders.

Could be worse. Daemon certainly got even more screwed.
 
I think the visitation point is fair as-is, since it swaps around after coronation. While Rhaenyra is heir, she has significant freedom of movement and a need to build up her support base with that freedom, so she can afford to fly back and forth, while Qoren is already the ruler of Dorne and will need to devote much of his effort to smoothing out the ruffled feathers and ensuring a peaceful integration. When Rhaenyra gets crowned Queen, she'll have a vastly greater amount of responsibility on her shoulders, and enough time will have passed to make the situation in Dorne require less direct oversight, so it would make sense for Qoren to be the one making the trips.

Mind you, I don't insist that this is the only way that makes sense, only that it is sensible and fair.
 
Azel said:
[X] Plan A Few Details
-[X] Ask for the visit requirement to be changed so that both you pledge to visit Dorne regularly and that Qoren will visit the other parts of the realm regularly with you.
--[X] It makes sense to broaden the focus from Sunspear to all of Dorne, since visiting other Dornish lords would help your standing and the process of unification. Likewise, Qoren should ensure that he is a known figure in the rest of the Seven Kingsdoms before the wedding to ease their concerns and grumbling. He is good at wining people over and should leverage that for the benefit of our union.
-[X] Ask for clarification of the status of Bloodstone.
--[X] Since Daemon being sworn to Corlys Velaryon would be an awkward situation for all involved, you want it spelled out that Daemon swears fealty directly to the Iron Throne. Should he not wish to claim Bloodstone, the island will be held by the Iron Throne directly in case he changes his mind later.
-[X] Ask to review the border adjustments. You want to make sure that no mistakes, like awarding land to House Peake, have snuck in.
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A couple of things here @Azel ...

We should probably add something about our future children regarding Qooren's visiting regularly, as per our own accord most of our kids will be raised in KL, and it is a good thing that they get to see his father regularly...

Regarding Daemon, having him swear to accept Rhaenyra as heiress of the Iron Throne would be useful...
 
Azel said:
-[X] Ask to review the border adjustments. You want to make sure that no mistakes, like awarding land to House Peake, have snuck in.
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Could we have argument as we are personally talking with Qoren and he might be more sympathetic to dunking on clear misogynist and unrepentant enemy that is future Lord Peake. And clearly this is the most important detail and need the help of Argument the most for the dice roll. May be like this.

--[ ] House Peake heir have been personally hostile to Rhaenyra as the heir and unlikely to be future ally. Ensuring that this potential enemy is not benefited by this accord will only benefit Dorne and Rhaenyra.
 
Some thoughts:

Having to visit Sunspear is not great, but I think this is just an inherent disadvantage of a Dornish match and we can't reasonably ask for anything better. Qoren does still have his own kingdom to rule. Long distance relationship might cause more problems with another couple but both Rhaenyra and Qoren are okay with not being exclusive anyways.

Make Bloodstone contingent on Daemon swearing fealty to Viserys and acknowledging us as heir. He's going to go back on his word anyways but it's still important. Plus, if Daemon refuses (I think there's a good chance he will, giving up most of the Stepstones and having to acknowledge us will wound his pride) that will drive a wedge between him, Corlys and Vizzy T and generally make him look unreasonable.

There is a risk that just like in many IRL peace treaties between bitter enemies, both sides come out of the border adjustments feeling like they've been had. The Stormlanders think the Iron Throne has abandoned them, the Dornish (especially the western Dornish) will think they're giving up too much. However, if we plan on writing off the Stormlands anyways this might not be as much of a problem. The Daynes and Blackmonts might not like it, but I think they'll still follow the Martells over a non-Dornish faction in a civil war. Giving the Reach some land would also be a decent way to give Otto a favor, since the Hightowers border Dorne IIRC. Useful if we plan on asking him for support next turn. I have nothing against screwing over the Peakes—to be really petty they could be the only part of the Reach that loses land to the Dornish, in exchange for more land elsewhere.

"All reasonable efforts to eliminate banditry" is somewhat vague. Can we get a more specific commitment, since we are funding Dorne's defenses in exchange for this? Maybe an explicit condition that if you as a Dornish vassal can't get the banditry problem under control (in all likelihood some Dornish lords are going to keep encouraging raids on the Marchers), no more towers for you.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
A couple of things here @Azel ...

We should probably add something about our future children regarding Qooren's visiting regularly, as per our own accord most of our kids will be raised in KL, and it is a good thing that they get to see his father regularly...

Regarding Daemon, having him swear to accept Rhaenyra as heiress of the Iron Throne would be useful...
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I really don't see the need to litigate the exact travel arrangements in any further detail. I specifically worded things so that they are more broad, not less, so that we are clearly communicating that we want to be a bit flexible about the details while being fully willing to honor the spirit of the idea.

As for Daemon, I'd prefer to not poke him even more. This whole agreement is already heavily reducing the threat he can pose to us and we should wait with pressuring him any further until an opportunity comes up where him throwing a fit doesn't endanger so much else.
 
I'm generally happy with these terms, and I highly approve of the House Peake pettiness agenda. Also its great because everyone will notice it and have to ask why and that will further weaken house Peake's reputation.

While the fearmongering around assassination potential is quite a bit much, I do think trying to locate a personal spymaster to assist us has its benefits. We can't get one on our father's council, but that doesn't mean we can't try and cultivate a relationship for one ourselves. (I know some were looking at Alys Rivers, but potentially someone like Isembard Arryn could work depending on how his work is going and if he does have a talent for it.) Not that this needs to be a right now move.

Is there any Stormlander Marcher house to show some favor to (Basically the Peake trade)? Perhaps someone House on the Kingsguard?

I do think the actual request about it should be something around letting us have an overview of the land disputes, gives us some power in the manner. So I quite like Azel's wording there.
 
Boss Tweed said:
"All reasonable efforts to eliminate banditry" is somewhat vague. Can we get a more specific commitment, since we are funding Dorne's defenses in exchange for this?
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We are not funding Dorne's defenses. They just got the right to make a few fortifications near the new Kingsroad since that will be an easy route to invade them from once it's done.


As for the banditry, we really don't want firmer commitments. The "banditry" being talked about here is the endemic raiding of Dornish border lords of Reacher and Stormlander held territories. This is just a polite way to say they've got to stop doing that.

And I maintain that we should get involved there ourselves since polite visits with Syrax to local lords might do wonders to their commitment to controlling "banditry".
 
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