Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Glau said:
Median age of US houses is 40 years, higher for apartments. Oldest buildings are disproportionately occupied by the poor.

So a half-century to get to 50% coverage, with that coverage heavily focused on the rich, seems reasonable.

It seems like planting a forest to deal with the problem of being cold and having no firewood. Great long term. But unlikely to benefit anyone alive right now.
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I mean, "Median Age" isn't really a great metric to use, because it takes into account everything that ever exists, and can be removed for any reason. A well built house that isn't built by the lowest bidder can last a damn long time.

And as Neablis told us, by starting now, we're going to make that the standard in the rebuilding process. This is, in fact, the best time because shit is already disrupted, and rolling the new standard in with the rebuilding is a great time to do big infrastructure projects.

Denva has ridiculously good industry, and it's going to get better, re-building the foundation to be nearly impervious to casual warpy infiltration seems like a good way to turn that industry into influence.
 
KyleDaScourge said:
Daemonology, immaterium understanding, psy encryption hardware, and MS controlled shields... None of that requires SSDIPS and it would seem that spending 250 RP on something that none of your professed short-term goals require is an odd choice. Unless you either don't think warp comms are a priority or don't think that an EaR + ToC Satellite Net would solve the problem while also knocking out 200 RP of progress towards them.

Would you feel better about my plan if I swapped out LS-OMC, Abacus Manufacturing, and Faith to add in Psy Encryption, MS Chaos Resist, and MS Controlled Psy Shields?

We're obviously not convincing each other so I agree the argument helps nobody and I'm going to shut up now.
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I just personally hold it as a priority to prepare and build trade partners, expect to have a visitor 1d6 as part of this turn's rolls, and having a sample of psy shielded goods that don't break either trading partner's bank to exchange is something we're only getting with SSDIPS - and which Denva will be using SSDIPS to design for us, with our help.

As a particularly notable example, those Denva-vita collab designs will include very cheap personal scale psy shielding. Neablis separately confirmed Denva could, and was going, to do so. That's stuff we really wanted for the rest of our crew and staff, and something just about anybody who talks before shooting would pay a pretty penny to have, even if they come with an expiration date.

And with G-1st, we'll have them ready for sale in bulk by even an early-in-turn visit. If we roll the crimson knights again, that could mean we score big, maybe big enough for immediate military support, which would free us and Denva to focus on scaling above short term military buildup.

Anyways, for your plan I think it makes sense to keep faith, since it's what you're currently using to work towards ubiqutous protection in the near-term. Abacus and L-OMC could go out for Psy Encryption Hardware and MS Chaos Resist, which would both help your counter-insurgency a fair bit between the opsec and the improved resiliency of both counter-terrorist forces and machine spirit-based infrastructure.

Things got rough, and I know I'm going to look back at what I wrote over the last few pages tomorrow with embarassment, I appreciate you hearing me out on that.

Sorry for the barbs.
 
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Eye of Vita gets us a lot of warp comms?

If we are going to end up doing the psyshield everywhere thing, we would probably be better off making beds rather than houses. Enclosed spaces people sleep in or can hide in gets us most of the benefits of houses, and beds would roll out a heck of a lot quicker. Smaller, easier to ship, easier to set up, doesn't require destruction of existing capital.

It would be cute if the stellar ascendancy developed a cultural tradition of princess-style curtained beds.
 
Eye of Vita gets 360 RP worth of techs I want for Warp Comms, while G-1st gets 275 RP worth... It gets MS CR and MS CPS though, which I think we've been sleeping on for way, way, way too long. Neither of them gets ASM, which means they're effectively both going to take at least 3 more turns to get warp comms, unless we do multiple techs in a turn, which seems both unlikely and risky. So, some progress there, but not as much as I'd like. C'est la vie.

In terms of research to get next... Well, ASM, obvioulsy. Faith Studies, too. Empathy at Range (200 RP), if it gets cheaper, or seems worth getting immediately, otherwise it could wait a turn. Psychic Shielding Reliability (100 RP), maybe? Demonology (100 RP), I dunno, I want Faith Studies first, maybe on a whole turn before...? Not sure. Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP), to let us start putting MS in ships. Psytech Machine spirits (100 RP), for Cia, maybe? And of course, there's also Superconductors, LSVM, tons of good cybernetics options...
 
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OfManyForms said:
No Intelligence Coding, no deal for me.
(The other floating research bothers me aswell which is why i prefer [] Plan: The Eye of Vita V4)
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Note that any plan that has Large Scale Void Manufacturing or Advanced Materials is working on that in some level, since we know those will potentially discount Intelligence Coding.
Prime 2.0 said:
You probably have, but just don't remember or didn't think much of it - in the past, people have added an extra 50RP to projects that they want to protect from the malus of a poor success.
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You responded to my post but did not address it. I will assume you noted the correction and either fixed it or decided I was wrong.
 
Well just to shill for my plan (eyes in the skies) which is trying to find a happy medium between G-1st Counter-Insurgency and The Eye of Vita way of handling the cults and research which sorry isn't doing anything more towards FTL comms then it was before (sorry Angle)

The changes I've made to it are:
in research: to remove the medium combat bot design I was doing, put 40 Cogitare towards cutting the RP costs for the light bots and satellites down and put the remaining RP towards helping Denva with developing SSDIPS-based designs
construction: removed the heavy bots, changed the medium bots over to the Humanized Machine-spirit Infantry Bots we have right now and producing 200 BP worth, producing 1000 BP worth of the new Gibson light bots
Helping with the cults: going with
-[] Help W to hunt the Cults and reunite Denva
--[] use our assault shuttles to act as a rapid reaction force
--[] Control and the designs of the Vigils and half the Gibsons and their designs to be turned over to the Stellar Ascendancy as soon as is practical.
--[] assist the Stellar Ascendancy in developing SSDIPS-based designs

I know it's not a perfect plan but I hope that it's a happy medium between the current leading plans and that these changes encourage folk to consider voting for it
 
My big worry right now is hyperfocus. Either excessive focus on psychic shielding, on producing units, or on repairing aerithon, all of which let things slip.

They don't finish dealing with Bongo (demonology), they don't get R&D to increase our research output (and Denva's!), they don't deal with the chaos cults, or they don't make troops to help deal with the cults.

I think my plans (especially Spring Cleansing with Science) manage to address all of these without going too hard on any of them.

I've found other plans that do two or maybe three of them, but some seem to just go for one.
 
Ok. I can approval vote that.

[X] Plan: The Eye of Vita V4

[X] Plan eyes in the skies
 
[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody

Might be too conservative/reactive, but I feel like giving Denva a real chance against Chaos then stamping out the cults and going all in on shields and sensors before remaining Chaotic agents ans vectors go fully underground is too important to pass up.
 
Haganeko said:
You responded to my post but did not address it. I will assume you noted the correction and either fixed it or decided I was wrong.
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Oop, yeah. I saw it, just... didn't get to making the edit yet. I'll get on that soon.

I will say that my plan does the stuff that makes me feel confident about taking Daemology soon, if not next turn, and if Kyle does the edits to theirs we discussed, he'll be able to do it with just as much prep with just a bit more RP spent after this turn.


EDIT: Just so it's clear, I'm not dead, just working on the edits still, and double checking my figures.
 
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Haganeko said:
My big worry right now is hyperfocus. Either excessive focus on psychic shielding, on producing units, or on repairing aerithon, all of which let things slip.

They don't finish dealing with Bongo (demonology), they don't get R&D to increase our research output (and Denva's!), they don't deal with the chaos cults, or they don't make troops to help deal with the cults.

I think my plans (especially Spring Cleansing with Science) manage to address all of these without going too hard on any of them.

I've found other plans that do two or maybe three of them, but some seem to just go for one.
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The bones of the research for Prime's plan, as well as LL's, come originally from my plan-draft. And the idea is to take care of the majority of our anti-Chaos research in one go, then focus on other issues. Because it has been reactive dripfeeding this far, in my opinion. But with this much anti-chaos research, we can hopefully actually get ahead in one area, and keep chipping away our psychic shielding techs at a much languid pace to keep that lead. And so, focus on other stuff too at the same time.
 
Finally got around to most of those edits... only to talk to Meianmaru, who had concerns about diluting the forces needed to canvas a whole planet. Ultimately, I decide to revert the most dramatic changes.

What's left are the BP and RP corrections (Thanks LightLan, Thanks Haganeko!), removal of Boost from SSDIPS, a rename of the bot from Seeker to Fire-Finder, a third "idea" about bot lending and joint command/training because I ran out of gas before I could start thinking about a full blown diplomacy action (maybe I get to it in the morning?), some formatting and boilerplate tweaks, and, uh.

Hm, yeah, I think that's it.

What would have happened otherwise was me leaning even farther on SSDIPS to put out an EaR-less spy sat network, putting 80 into the air but leaning on the ground-side infrastructure in cities to fill in the coverage gap. Thanks to SSDIPS, the sats would be half BP cost, so it seemed like a plausible idea.
Prime 2.0 before he reverted it like the coward he is said:
-[x] Research x2 (400 + 85 (Anexa) + 51 (Anexa staff, 40 Cogitare assigned to design) = 536 RP)
--[x] The Taste of Chaos (100 RP)
---[x] Anexa assist
--[x] Small-scale design-integrated psychic shielding (aka "SSDIPS") (150 RP)
--[x] Hardware Psychic Encryption (50 RP)
--[x] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (Boost: 75 RP base * 1.25 = 93.75 -> 94 RP)
--[x] Machine Spirit-controlled Psychic Shields (50 RP)
--[X] Blueprint: Flying Pan Spy Satellite (>=10 RP, 10 VBP, 5 CP) (RP price halved due to 20 assigned Cogitare)
---[X] 10 RP - Spy Satellite (10 RP, 10 BP, 5 CP)
---[X] Design-Integrated Psychic Shielding (+?x RP, +0 BP cost for Installations)
--[x] Blueprint: Fire-Finder Light Infantry Bot [>=10 RP, 80 BP, 20 CP] (RP price halved due to 20 assigned Cogitare)
---[x] 10 RP - Light infantry bots (25 BP, 200 CP)
---[x] Humanization - (+15 base BP cost for combat bots)
---[x] Machine-spirits - (+0.5x base BP cost, -0.9x base CP cost)
---[x] Design-Integrated Psychic Shielding - (+?x RP, +0 BP cost for bots)
---[x] Less-than Lethal armament - (+0.5x base BP cost for vehicles and small craft & bots.)
--[x] Assist Denva with SSDIPS-based designs such as shielded housing and personal shielding (Overflow)
-[x][Repair Bay]: spent in Construction
-[x] Construction (600 VBP + 5340 Aetherion MS manus + 1,100 VBP (Voidforge Miners) = 7040 / 1000 Repair Bay / 500 Lift Capacity):
--[x] Repair the Spark's structure damage (110 VBP) (15/125 -> 125/125 BP of structure damage repaired)
--[x] Psychic Shielding: Outer Hull 221/240 -> 240/240 HP (95 VBP)
--[x] The Spark: Basic Psychic Experimentation Lab 666/1215 -> 1215 (549 VBP, 50 CP)
--[x] Fix up 41 Orbital Manufactories to MS-manufactories (4100 BP, 615 CP)
--[x] 4854/7040 BP
--[x] Build 80 Flying Pans (800 BP, 400 CP)
---[X] Stage in Denva Secondus orbit
--[x] Build 15,000 Fire-Finder bots. (1,200 BP, 300 CP)
--[x] Aetherion Shipyard repair (All remaining BP) (186 BP)
-[x] Orders: Help Denva cleanse the planet of hidden chaos cults
--[X] Idea: Could use psy-shield equipped forces for search and patrol, while stationing reserve forces of unshielded bots/tanks on shuttles that can rapidly insert from orbit onto the scene of a detected cult or cultist attack to reinforce local responders.
--[X] Idea: Shielded housing isn't just for safety - build outwards from major population centers they could rapidly make these areas impossible to operate for cults because omni-present warp sensors risk catching them immediately even if they don't do anything. The targeted use and expansion of "safe zones" and shield-equipped patrols can be used to direct and limit undiscovered cultist cells' movement to make finding them easier.
--[X] Idea: Investigation and counter-terrorism is more Denva's show than yours, and they could definitely use the experience. Consider transferring full control of the Flying Pans to Secondus, and leasing up to half of your Hell-Fighter bots on request.
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You could say my edits fell down from the flying pan and into the fire-finders. :V

If people have thoughts or preferences between the plan's present state and the Flying Pan edit I reverted, let me know - I should be able to read them and think on it more in the morning, alongside seeing if I can get that full command -> diplo action conversion figured out.
 
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The false positives for an entire planet wide psy-sensor network is going to be hilarious. From warp storms, to accidentally intercepting astropath yelling into the void, the large scale rituals which echo through the local sector's warp.

But still better than not having it!

henkalv said:
Getting psychic shielding for homes seems like a good thing for the long run, but for dealing with a cult that exists now and preventing it from having a resurgence short term solutions that finds them and kills them seems better.
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Psy-shields as sensors means Denva can actually do something the IoM absolutely can't do; deliminate between "safe" and "not safe" for a population after chaos exposure with actual confidence.

A major reason the IoM has entered it's current failure state is the IoM simply can't detect chaos contamination on an industrial scale.

Alectai said:
I mean, "Median Age" isn't really a great metric to use, because it takes into account everything that ever exists, and can be removed for any reason. A well built house that isn't built by the lowest bidder can last a damn long time.
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So much housing is going to require rebuilding, as there has been a planetary wide conflict where one side has actual economical and strategic reasons that mass slaughter is actually beneficial for them.

The last update literally is trying to peg a scale for "how many people where murdered in agony to empower this device". Measuring in mini-holocaust is a valid unit of measurement! So many people on Denva would have died purely to getto empower of chaos artifacts.
 
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Yes, I know, but that rebuilding is happening regardless, and doing it right the first time at higher expense isn't a bad decision? Especially since we have industrial capacity.
 
I don't really like how many RP this plan is throwing out to hedge against poor success, but some of the arguments I saw on hardening Denva on a societal level and the way that scales has convinced me:

[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody
 
DragonParadox said:
I don't really like how many RP this plan is throwing out to hedge against poor success, but some of the arguments I saw on hardening Denva on a societal level and the way that scales has convinced me:

[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody
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SSDIPS itself is no longer boosted, so only 19 RP is spent on negating poor success, for the machine spirit chaos resist.

The combination of "RP contribution to Denva caps at 100 RP either way" and me running numbers on the actual cost of poor success bot development had me shrug and decide we could save that RP handily.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
SSDIPS itself is no longer boosted, so only 19 RP is spent on negating poor success, for the machine spirit chaos resist.

The combination of "RP contribution to Denva caps at 100 RP either way" and me running numbers on the actual cost of poor success bot development had me shrug and decide we could save that RP handily.
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Good to know, consider my vote more firmly behind the plan.
 
While I agree with G-1st Counter-Insurgency our next plan should definitely be researching Void-Abucus and Daemonology with the latter to bound Bongo and the former making travelling easier and give it to Stellar Ascendency to be able to to expand.


Also because having an Anti-Chaos Space Police is fucking cool.
 
meianmaru said:
The bones of the research for Prime's plan, as well as LL's, come originally from my plan-draft. And the idea is to take care of the majority of our anti-Chaos research in one go, then focus on other issues. Because it has been reactive dripfeeding this far, in my opinion. But with this much anti-chaos research, we can hopefully actually get ahead in one area, and keep chipping away our psychic shielding techs at a much languid pace to keep that lead. And so, focus on other stuff too at the same time.
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I don't think this is how that works. Partly because those of us who are worried about Chaos will still be worried and want Better Shielding and whatnot eventually. Heck, if one counts Demonology and Faith as anti chaos research (I certainly do) and considers that the former boosts the effectiveness of Taste for some purposes, one could argue this does too little.

I would also argue that it is inefficient to get non-urgent things (like Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance and Psychic Shields, which are minor iterational improvements) before RP-improving tech that is rigjt there (collab R&D).
Prime 2.0 said:
Finally got around to most of those edits... only to talk to Meianmaru, who had concerns about diluting the forces needed to canvas a whole planet. Ultimately, I decide to revert the most dramatic changes.

What's left are the BP and RP corrections (Thanks LightLan, Thanks Haganeko!), removal of Boost from SSDIPS, a rename of the bot from Seeker to Fire-Finder, a third "idea" about bot lending and joint command/training because I ran out of gas before I could start thinking about a full blown diplomacy action (maybe I get to it in the morning?), some formatting and boilerplate tweaks, and, uh.

Hm, yeah, I think that's it.

What would have happened otherwise was me leaning even farther on SSDIPS to put out an EaR-less spy sat network, putting 80 into the air but leaning on the ground-side infrastructure in cities to fill in the coverage gap. Thanks to SSDIPS, the sats would be half BP cost, so it seemed like a plausible idea.

You could say my edits fell down from the flying pan and into the fire-finders. :V

If people have thoughts or preferences between the plan's present state and the Flying Pan edit I reverted, let me know - I should be able to read them and think on it more in the morning, alongside seeing if I can get that full command -> diplo action conversion figured out.
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Do note that we don't need to be making enough forces to fight all the chaos cults in the planet—Denva has their own forces they'll be deploying. We're reinforcing and providing tech, not the main forces.

Oh, and... I'm soedy to say this, but I really dislike the new bot name. It seems like a pun on firefighter?
 
Haganeko said:
I would also argue that it is inefficient to get non-urgent things (like Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance and Psychic Shields, which are minor iterational improvements) before RP-improving tech that is rigjt there (collab R&D).
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It is inneficient but nonetheless is necesary
Strong foundations are needed

Chaos isnt a field where you can just use "trial and error" aproach because every "error" is a potential chaos invasion

Finishing the "101" of safety measures and sensor suites is the bare minimum before entertaining more high level warp research

Im happy all plans do a couple of the 6 or 7 techs that make up the "101"

We gonna stay here for a while so we dont need to rush things

1 or 2 "101" every turn
1 or 2 "warp comms" every turn
1 or 2 other techs (AI,OMC etc) every turn

Over 4 to 5 turns will result on 6 new techs on every field
 
Haganeko said:
I don't think this is how that works. Partly because those of us who are worried about Chaos will still be worried and want Better Shielding and whatnot eventually. Heck, if one counts Demonology and Faith as anti chaos research (I certainly do) and considers that the former boosts the effectiveness of Taste for some purposes, one could argue this does too little.

I would also argue that it is inefficient to get non-urgent things (like Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance and Psychic Shields, which are minor iterational improvements) before RP-improving tech that is rigjt there (collab R&D).

Do note that we don't need to be making enough forces to fight all the chaos cults in the planet—Denva has their own forces they'll be deploying. We're reinforcing and providing tech, not the main forces.

Oh, and... I'm soedy to say this, but I really dislike the new bot name. It seems like a pun on firefighter?
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While I disagree with basically everything else... I have to say, yeah the bot names Hell-Fighter or Fire-Finder? Really not to my tastes either. @Prime 2.0 "Seeker" was a perfectly good name I saw used elsewhere, if you want to switch it.
 
Does anyone remember which hull-size the Flame torpedo frigate was?
Neablis said:
Flame torpedo frigate (2500 void BP, 2 ship construction slots) 2000x500 meters, 6 gravities, light shields, medium armor. Living Space. Psychic Shields (40 HP) Medium Torpedoes, 2x point defense, Prow ram, Light macrocannons. High-maneuverability thrusters, melta torpedo payloads, Alloyed Armor, Light Boarding preparations.
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Neablis said:
Frigate, 50 RP, 100 CP, 2 ship construction slots (500-1000 BP, 1600x400-2200x600 meters) Engines: (5/6/7 gravities) for (75/150/225 BP). Shields: (none/light/medium) for (0/75/150) Armor: (none/light/medium) for (0/75/150)
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It's not listed (in terms of bp) only in size. So it's definitely not the max of 1000, but probably close to it?

Would be ideal if they were 900 BP-hulls, because we have 4 of those lying around.

After fixing up the Shipyard next turn, we'll have ~6k BP left or so.

The 450 BP-hulls are the right size for the candles. So we can build like half a dozen of those next turn (and give them to Denva) to improve space defenses. For 1k per candle (reduced from 1450 for up to 12).

Flames would be 1600 (reduced from 2500 for up to 4). So we can build 3-4, if we can use those hulls for them. Or more likely mix them with the candles.
 
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The more I think of these two plans, the more I think they are both going too hard on anti-chaos / anti-cult activity.

The boon list requests a single action of Order support with a follow on note that Taste of Chaos makes it all but guaranteed to succeed. Looking at that I noticed the other boon requests are also fairly cheap. As a thought experiment I put together a plan to get the bare minimum for each boon and I ended up rather liking it. So I give you give you the dark horse plan, the College Try.

[X] Plan: College Try
-[X] Repair Bay
--[X] Fix 110 BP of hull damage
--[X] Repair 19 HP of Outer Hull Psy-Shields (95 BP)
--[X] Rebuild Psy-Lab (200 * 1.5 = 350 BP)
--[X] Start rebuilding Psy-Lab Shields 59 HP (295 * 1.5 = 442 BP)
-[X] Void Miners (1,100 VBP)
--[X] Build 5,000 Spectors (500 VBP)
--[X] Build 5,000 Medium Humanized MS Bots (500 VBP)
--[X] Build 20 Personal Void Shields (100 VBP)
---[X] For W and her agents
-[X] Research 2x (545 RP)
--[X] The Taste of Chaos (100 RP)
--[X] Abacus Manufacturing (50 RP)
--[X] Collaborative Computational R&D (250 RP)
---[X] Anexa assigned
--[X] 145 RP to Intelligence Coding (170 -> 315/400 RP)
-[X] Order: Use your sensors to help Denva locate cult activity on the planet and stomp it out.
--[X] Cia assigned to lead attacks on strongholds as needed
-[X] Diplomacy: Organize Denva's research sector using the new collaborative software.
--[X] Victan Assigned
--[X] Share all completed research with Denva, including warp drives and star charts.
 
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