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Okay so you know what, depending on the answer boosting SSDIPS is a gimme for nearly any plan that takes it, so I may as well ask:
@Neablis what kind of ratio of extra RP would a research item require to avoid a critical fail?
Negating a poor success is like 25%. Can't negate a crit fail.
1. @Neablis , if I earmark that 25% RP to negate a poor success, do I have to pay the surcharge no matter what, or only if the poor success actually happens?

2. And, for that matter, about the 10-100 RP help for Denva designing SSDIPS-based mass production shielded stuff™: is there a point at which Denva would say "Yeah, that's enough RP, we got this"? For overflow purposes, that is.

Went down a bit of a rabbit hole on whether or not boosting SSDIPS would pay for itself in my plan last page, and this'd clear that up nicely.

I'm also assuming we'd get some below abstraction "civilian infrastructure shielding refits" design or some shit since that's what we're collaborating on, might come in handy for uplift down the line, idk. I'm just happy that rapidly teeing up Denva to make shielding for everyone is even possible.

EDIT: I've set SSDIPS to boost for now, pending feedback. Will likely refine troop loadout this evening as well, will see.
 
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Anexa's interruption has shocked Victan out of his angry stupor, and he's started studying the display as well. "It looks like they moved fully into OMC technology, and were starting to have good relations with the Vellkar. Harvesting Denva Primus for materials, but all of the smelting and manufactories were in orbit." His tone grows hot once more. "There's a note here that all of that was destroyed after the Forsaken Chorus gained control of the system."

This bubbled to the surface of my mind today.

@Neablis does this mean that with lift capacity nearby orbital factories could get the 50% production bonus of Denva Primus? Or was this just the narrative description of how they built manufacturing on Primus?
 
[X] Plan eyes in the skies
[x] Plan: Find and get rid of the chaos cults v2
[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody

I'm a big fan of integrated shielding. There are
few situations where a default Anti-Chaos defence on every level isn't worth it.
 
We have yes, W evacuated all the others to Aevon and the Aevon one itself never fell.
Yep, checks out. One of the monasteries was used as a Chaos stronghold in the late stages:
Her expression turns dour. "The fuckers were dug in better than we thought they were. They turned one of the monasteries into a stronghold full of artillery and we only just dug them out. Bloody, even with bots on the frontline. Shelling cities will do that."
But they were probably a bit disappointed when they first occupied the place:
W evacuated the other monasteries to Aevon when shit went down,
 
Had a sudden realization and am now seriously considering redirecting some of the overflow from Intelligence Coding into designing a Tiny Shipyard with a single ship construction slot so that Denva will have the design and can put it together with their new LS-OMC technology to begin the fastest possible construction of their own fleet... Previously stated cost for that was 25 RP, there's 32 going into Intelligence Coding right now...

Going by the pattern of the other shipyards, the Tiny Shipyard would probably look like... Tiny Shipyard (400 void BP, 25 CP) 1 Ship construction slot. Which on top of being useful for the Denvans, might be a good way to get an initial wave of destroyers built next turn.

If my math is right, we'll be starting the next turn with 8,960 VBP available between the orbital manufactories, Voidforge Miners, and the Spark. 900 of that would go to reactivating the last of the orbital manufactories. Assuming a general cost of 1,000 BP to build one of our 12 hulls into a functional destroyer, and 400 per shipyard to do it with, we could build 5 tiny shipyards and have them each launch a destroyer next turn while still reactivating the last set of orbital manufactories and having some production left over.

@Neablis Can we build a shipyard and then use it to build a ship within the same turn?
 
I'm gonna argue that while the currently leading plan, The Eye of Vita V4, is good for solving the issue of finding cults and psychic phenomena... It lacks long-term benefits when compared to currently second-place plan, G-1st Counter-Insurgency. Because not only does the latter give detection even if it is on shorter ranges (for now). it gives, like is in the name of the tech, shielding.

If we complete free integration to basically every building on Denva, it will make exceedingly hard for anyone to pull of any Chaos shenanigans. And I mean on the level that cults and individuals will struggle even to punch through that shielding. Detection will let us respond, but if every single building also will have to have its shielding degraged or just destroyed before any chaos shenanigans can get through? Well, it will not only choke out the cults it will make them popping up again exceedingly hard.

Because it will stop people tainted from getting worse from spreading the memetic ideas. Nightmares from the Warp leaking through to minds. And will make unseen sudden psychic awakenings much less dangerous. Overall, its just a lot better for society in a long-term. And the earlier we get to implement it, the greater the rewards will be as Denva's rebuilding proceeds. And if and when we get also Empathy at Range later? That network will choke out Chaos both by detection and just denying it most of its chances to spread.

Not to mention that basically all of the tech will be directly useful for us. Especially important would be Hardware Psychic Encryption, as it should make handling Bongo much safer, and also deny any random diviner from pulling out our secrets from the Warp. So yes, I think that Prime's plan is just overall better for our needs, instead of just aiming to solve one problem.
 
Yeah, time to narrow to what I most want to win. I'll still take feedback - troop composition needs work, and I can be convinced to switch to more of an agency setup diplo action like Kyle's if that's the deciding factor for folks, but Meianmaru covers quite a bit here.

I don't think either plan is bad, obviously, I approval voted for Eye out the gate, but I do have my preference, and I want it to win.

Universal psy shielding on Denva, and all the knowledge about how to deploy shielding to a contested planet that we'll gain from doing it can be ours, this turn, if we so choose.

[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody

Let's teach 40k about Oprah.
 
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I would prefer the diplo approach to orders approach, because I think we're vastly less qualified and equipped for the street-level work than the humans are but we're excellent at social/political interventions. But I'm already onboard.
 
--[X] Add 65 BP shielding to warp research lab
Can you calculate out how many BP you're spending on this?

--[x] The Spark: Basic Psychic Experimentation Lab 1000/1215 -> 1215 (215 VBP, 50 CP)
-[x] The Spark: Basic Psychic Experimentation Lab 1000/1215 -> 1215 (215 VBP, 50 CP)
... where does the 1000 come from? Are you using the repair bay on it? And don't forget that because it's a retrofit inside the ship it's x1.5 cost. Angle did the math right in his plan.

--[x] Aetherion Shipyard repair (All remaining BP)
I would appreciate if you did the math here to make sure we're all on the same page. To me it looks like... 520?

Okay so you know what, depending on the answer boosting SSDIPS is a gimme for nearly any plan that takes it, so I may as well ask:

1. @Neablis , if I earmark that 25% RP to negate a poor success, do I have to pay the surcharge no matter what, or only if the poor success actually happens?

2. And, for that matter, about the 10-100 RP help for Denva designing SSDIPS-based mass production shielded stuff™: is there a point at which Denva would say "Yeah, that's enough RP, we got this"? For overflow purposes, that is.

Went down a bit of a rabbit hole on whether or not boosting SSDIPS would pay for itself in my plan last page, and this'd clear that up nicely.

I'm also assuming we'd get some below abstraction "civilian infrastructure shielding refits" design or some shit since that's what we're collaborating on, might come in handy for uplift down the line, idk. I'm just happy that rapidly teeing up Denva to make shielding for everyone is even possible.

EDIT: I've set SSDIPS to boost for now, pending feedback. Will likely refine troop loadout this evening as well, will see.
1. I'm considering changing this mechanic because it makes for more complexity. Let's say that yes, you do have to eat the surcharge no matter what. This is meant for you to be able to spend a little extra on important techs, not for you to just keep a spare pool of RP to prevent anything from going badly.
2. 100 RP? That's why that upper limit exists? And that will include helping with some "below abstraction" civilian refits like governmental buildings, mass transit, etc.

This bubbled to the surface of my mind today.

@Neablis does this mean that with lift capacity nearby orbital factories could get the 50% production bonus of Denva Primus? Or was this just the narrative description of how they built manufacturing on Primus?
Orbital manufactures built over primus will also get the bonus - so long as you have agreement/military victory over the Vellkar to be able to harvest the appropriate minerals from the world.

Denva had that agreement, but it probably needs to get established by you. You could either negotiate it yourself or spend a boon to take over Denva's side of the deal after they re-establish it (and then maybe get it back by giving them the rebuilt facilities back when you leave).

@Neablis Can we build a shipyard and then use it to build a ship within the same turn?
Yes

Yup, sounds about right.
 
I would argue that setting up a global sensor net to detect any congregation of cultists anywhere on Denva, and giving the Denvans the designs so that they can go on to do the same anywhere else they end up expanding, along with psy-shielded bots with tranq-guns to round up any suspected cultists detected by that network is plenty of anti-chaos preparation. In every other area of research Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody falls behind. It doesn't make any progress on warp comms, doesn't resolve the last bits of research for Faith or Void Abaci, and it doesn't close up the last bit of missing capability for OMC usage.

I also like my diplomatic take on the action to actually help Denva with their cultists of course.
 
Had a sudden realization and am now seriously considering redirecting some of the overflow from Intelligence Coding into designing a Tiny Shipyard with a single ship construction slot so that Denva will have the design and can put it together with their new LS-OMC technology to begin the fastest possible construction of their own fleet... Previously stated cost for that was 25 RP, there's 32 going into Intelligence Coding right now...

I don't think we need this. Based on hull counts the large ship yard has 36 of 64 build slots in use. So getting it online will allow for far more ship building.
 
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I don't think we need this. Based on hull counts the large ship yard has 36 of 64 build slots in use. So getting it online will allow for far more ship building.

Getting it online needs 3,000 BP. I think it's technically a wash for our purposes whether we reactivate the large shipyard or just build probably 5 tiny ones, and we could build 5 destroyers either way. I think the design will be useful to have anyway. It's bound to be notably less CP intensive to operate and BP intensive to set up, which makes it great for Denva, the Cogitare, and anyone else we try to uplift later. Simplifying and cheapening the path towards even an all destroyer navy can only be a good thing I think.
 
... where does the 1000 come from? Are you using the repair bay on it? And don't forget that because it's a retrofit inside the ship it's x1.5 cost. Angle did the math right in his plan.
We trusted your math:
The psychic lab is completely destroyed. You're going to need to rebuild it from scratch. As a reminder, that will cost 200 base BP for the psychic lab, + 675 for 135 points of shielding, all multiplied by 1.5 becauase you're building it inside a completed ship. So 1215 BP in total to rebuild exactly what you had. You may want to build it with more psychic shielding to avoid worse results. This was a bad roll and 135 psychic HP barely contained it. As Cia continues to level it won't be enough to completely contain a bad roll anymore.

I would appreciate if you did the math here to make sure we're all on the same page. To me it looks like... 520?
@Prime 2.0 That means the repair bay only gives 666BP for the refit.
--[] The Spark: Basic Psychic Experimentation Lab 666/1215 -> 1215 (549 VBP, 50 CP)
(...)
--[] 4854/7040 BP
(...)
--[] Aetherion Shipyard repair (All remaining BP) (186 BP)
 
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I would argue that setting up a global sensor net to detect any congregation of cultists anywhere on Denva, and giving the Denvans the designs so that they can go on to do the same anywhere else they end up expanding, along with psy-shielded bots with tranq-guns to round up any suspected cultists detected by that network is plenty of anti-chaos preparation. In every other area of research Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody falls behind. It doesn't make any progress on warp comms, doesn't resolve the last bits of research for Faith or Void Abaci, and it doesn't close up the last bit of missing capability for OMC usage.

I also like my diplomatic take on the action to actually help Denva with their cultists of course.
Warp comms and Void Abacus research can wait, but again, Hardware Psychic Encryption. That one I refuse to have pushed back again. Because we've been caught off guard way too many times with it. Besides the encounters with the forces of Chaos we've had, the Corsair Eldar too managed to gather some information most likely. Pushing the orginal tech for psy encryption back because we thought we could afford has turned out to be a bad idea before, and I don't want us experiencing that mistake again just because it wasn't efficient.

And also, getting to integrate psychic shielding to important unit designs, even with increased RP costs, is a very powerful ability. Even more so with all the upgrades to the shielding itself. I'd prefer, for example, that we wouldn't have to count on just Cia to pull of miracles the next time some chaos-worshippers pull of a ritual that floods the battlefield with warp.

These have been relatively small battles this far. And as the conflict escalates I'd like our units, as well as those of Denva, to be as solidly armored against chaotic shenanigans as cost-efficiently as feasible.
 
1. I'm considering changing this mechanic because it makes for more complexity. Let's say that yes, you do have to eat the surcharge no matter what. This is meant for you to be able to spend a little extra on important techs, not for you to just keep a spare pool of RP to prevent anything from going badly.
2. 100 RP? That's why that upper limit exists? And that will include helping with some "below abstraction" civilian refits like governmental buildings, mass transit, etc.
1. Makes sense.
2. I wasn't sure if it was 100 RP cap straight, or "it varies depending on how well SSDIPS rolls, because the design costs themselves will".

If it's 100 RP straight and we have to pay the surcharge regardless, I believe I will take the boost back off of SSDIPS, since expected savings from boost is only around 10, while the fixed cost is more like 34.
I would argue that setting up a global sensor net to detect any congregation of cultists anywhere on Denva, and giving the Denvans the designs so that they can go on to do the same anywhere else they end up expanding, along with psy-shielded bots with tranq-guns to round up any suspected cultists detected by that network is plenty of anti-chaos preparation. In every other area of research Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody falls behind. It doesn't make any progress on warp comms, doesn't resolve the last bits of research for Faith or Void Abaci, and it doesn't close up the last bit of missing capability for OMC usage.

I also like my diplomatic take on the action to actually help Denva with their cultists of course.
Now, now - while it was a bit uncharitable of Meianmaru to say you served no long term interests, saying that mine falls behind in every other respect is equally reductive - we both pursue longer term benefits, just in different fields.

As you say, you make progress on warp comms. That's good, it's something we want before we leave even though we only get limited benefit from it before departure - scouting ships can be sent out and report back the old fashioned way just fine, after all, but even the scouting ships need abacuses, which you finish. I gave credit for Faith, likewise, and I'm not unlikely to switch my command action to a diplomacy action on yours, as I've already said.

However, let's not forget what long term benefits I am pursuing in plan G-1st:
  • It tees us up to finish up and bind Bongo immediately next turn, through psy encryption and general psy shield upgrades between SSDIPS (which does say it improves shielding generally) and MS Controlled shielding backed by a boosted MSCR.
  • It knocks out almost every prerequisite for export-ready psychic shielding:
    • SSDIPS directly lets us design trade goods to print in bulk, bringing costs down to match our other economically viable trade goods
    • Machine Spirit Controlled Psy Shields is a prerequisite for self-healing psy shields, a go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go hard requirement for our shielding to be sold to anyone who does not have the spare manufacturing capacity to repair it, much less to people (most, in otherwords) for whom it should stay black-boxed.
    • The RP funneled into Denva for their misceallaneous shielded designs, while below abstraction, are still designs we have, and designs that are all part of the necessary kit to provide an uplifted or reformed world with hardened infrastructure, and the experience of this very deployment will tell us what to consider when deploying that infrastructure to a contested planet.
  • My bot redesign benefits from SSDIPS - it is already psychic shield mass production ready, no redos needed.

Ironically, it's actually the short term where our plans differ in effectiveness. Abacus manufacturing, Faith, partial progress on intelligence coding, large-scale OMC... distinction between Vita using spy sats on denvan orders or denva using them directly from the start aside, we're not actually using any of those things this turn! And while many can contribute to potential next turn plans, most of them can just be gotten at the same time as what they're contributing to.

By contrast, every RP my plan spends is in direct service to our immediate goals, not the least of which is hardware psychic encryption to eliminate all possibility of Bongo feeding info to the cults, while still forwarding our existing "complete on denva" agenda. Without even slowing down our other plans, it just invests more in making sure that no matter the rolls, we're prepared to ace this Ground First Counter-Insurgency. (title drop)

Fulfilling short term goals reliably in a way that does not delay longer term ones by recognizing what can be done immediately and what can be deferred is, ultimately, what good build order planning is all about. When the chips are down, that's why I think mine is bette: it does more, while not doing anything slower, simply by doing things in a different order. Birds and stones, you know the drill.

But really, all of this explains what we mostly already knew: Focusing our research effort squarely on things that knock the cultist problem out first is more effective than diluting our effort across things that we will only use after the counter-insurgency is done.

Hence, my vote remains:

[x] Plan: G-1st Counter-Insurgency featuring shields for literally everybody



That said, I'm out of time - edits such as to fixing the repair bay BP will happen in eh, call it 3-4 hours? I should get around to rejiggering the cleanup action as a diplomacy like Kyle's then too.
 
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If we complete free integration to basically every building on Denva,

Do you have an estimate on how much BP *someone* would have to spend on this?

Personally not confident that mass build/deploy of breakable archaeotech is a good way to deal with cleaning up chaos. It doesn't cover outside of buildings, or help with corruption of those already exposed, or even stop the exchange of chaotic knowledge inside them, so it seems like it depends on the assumption that people are clean to begin with and they won't be exposed outside of equiped buildings. Nice to have, but not something that'll do the job of investigators and a sensor net.
 
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