Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Shard said:
Dismantling Bongo would let us accelerate psytech development. Most of which are Cia-Related. Researching Bongo further.. Sure, more resistance, but we're already resistant enough that the big danger from Bongo was Bongo breaking out. Do we really need to keep this danger around us when we have extracted basically all the easy value we can get from them?

There are fruits everywhere, the Necron corpse, the Chaos people, more, more, more. Opportunity cost is real. More Bongo means less everything else and I'm kind of foreseeing us reading 'you have optimized your anti scrapcode to where it's nigh immune, mind you were already ridiculously resistant before' if we continue down the Bongo track.

The information leak you speak of can be plugged by like, dismantling Bongo. Chaos already knows everything Bongo knows if we actually treat it like that so the loss this turn is super minimal.
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... We explicitly haven't extracted all reasonable value from them. Demonology gets it's price tripled without Bongo for one. Also no. Unless Bongo told other daemons on that ship everything it knew then our secrets are still safe. Additionally, the Chaos Space Marines that attacked up were trying to break Bongo out. This suggests that they want Bongo to be free - and anything Chaos wants I'm inclined to deny them.

Edit: @gale Then we should get Encryption. That blocks that form of communication and seers from just finding us by divining 'Active Uncorrupted DAoT AI in Sector'
 
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Resurrecting baseline humans and even blessed astartes is rare and difficult. Usually their souls are torn apart in a feeding frenzy of daemons the moment they die.

Daemons are not exactly famed for their restraint. It happens, but probably not here.
 
MSH said:
Resurrecting baseline humans and even blessed astartes is rare and difficult. Usually their souls are torn apart in a feeding frenzy of daemons the moment they die.

Daemons are not exactly famed for their restraint. It happens, but probably not here.
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I would be more worried if we had gotten the name of their leader or something, even if he had just declared in his last stand against Cia. But as we didn't... Well, while I'm not 100% that he true-death-dead, I'm actually feeling hopeful when it comes to this.
 
Cookiesndip said:
They know much less than Bongo does, Bongo has been around since the beginning.
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Bongo could have told them everything it learned, full sensory experience, we do not know what daemon to daemon bandwidth looks like. That said the point about it still being a lot safer to learn demonology with him than without him stands and keeping daemons out and maybe summoning saints with a bit of luck just became more important because of that.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
I mean it's still an advantage, and less ships means less Abacuses and smaller fleets potentially being scattered in the warp. Why not do it? It's pretty cheap, relatively speaking.
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It's very expensive in opportunity costs. That's the price. Get cramming but don't get warp comms is a tradeoff I don't want to make.

KyleDaScourge said:
I'm hoping psychic encryption would jam Bongo's communications but it's also possible demonology would just let us either bind and command him to shut the hell up, or go a step further and bind him helplessly into a titanium cube or something.
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It's a hope that it will stop bongo from taking to others, but we didn't know he could do that and don't actually know what will stop him. This is a gamble.

If the whole point of demonology is to safely ditch bongo then we'll have spent an action and a half on ease of mind without further benefits.

Nightlord256 said:
While I agree with your sentiment it's very possible that destroying his physical vessel just releases him back to the Warp, where he can communicate freely.
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Sure, but he was communicating freely with chaos forces in this system. Anthing you are worried about it sharing it already has, anything he didn't share he he probably would not share in the warp either.

I don't think it's a big enough risk to matter.

meianmaru said:
Disrupting daemon summoning rituals, banishing daemons back to the warp, better warding against the powers of Chaos... Which are now a much more feasible problems on Denva.
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Ok...? And you want this instead of sensors that would identify chaos cultists? Because those are in direct condition with eachother for RP.

We've got cog filters. We've got psychic shields. We've got sensors that can spot rituals.

We don't need better options against chaos, we've spent a lot of time and effort building our current options. We need more ability to fight.

meianmaru said:
Also, you know what would have almost certainly actually prevented Bongo from talking? As KyleDaScourge said, Psychic Encryption. Which was in my plan for the last turn.
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I don't see any reason to think it would have stopped it talking. Psychic encryption is to prevent others from scrying on us or predicting our actions; on the face of it that's not going to stop demons taking through the warp except by accident.

meianmaru said:
Anyway, just because you don't want to deal with having to handle daemons doesn't mean that we can completely avoid them.
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We've got cog-filters and nested psychic shields. And plasma weaponry. Just because I don't want to handle them the way you want to handle them doesn't mean i want to avoid them.

We spent a ton on the stuff we've already got. Now can we try to be as protected against more common threats, like boarding?

meianmaru said:
This is the safest we can research this subject, but people keep pushing back on first researching the steps required to do so safely.
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I don't want to research the subject. I don't want to summon demons safely; I don't want to summon demons at all. The subject can be addressed by developing complex wards and intricate rituals, or we can just throw melta charges at it and not get tied up believing we have to play by their rules.

MSH said:
That material basis secured, just do Demonology. Just do it. Stop not doing it. Stop refusing progress and then demanding we dispose of Bongo when he does things, because of the refusal to do Daemonology. Just do it.
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No.

Aura Dragon said:
Right. To 'deal' with Bongo in a semi-permanent manner in order we need:
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Nah. It's a free action to cock him in the sun, for no more risk than we are already at with the dead chaos Marine.

Or destructive analysis, if you want to squeeze that last bit out.


armentho said:
getting rid of bongo without having a way to summon new demons is nothing short of crippling our warp research and protections against chaos
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No, it isn't. It means that our warp research goes among non-demonic paths. Like immaterium understanding, or psytech, or warp comms. Demons are a distraction from those, not a support.

Cookiesndip said:
Throw Bongo into the sun = daemon that knows all our operations and our existence is now loose in the immaterium and has a mountain of a grudge against us. What could possibly go wrong?! It would be foolish to do so.
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Too late. Bongo talked to the chaos marines and the chaos marines died. The horse has already left, no point in building elaborate locks for the barn door now.
 
DragonParadox said:
Bongo could have told them everything it learned, full sensory experience, we do not know what daemon to daemon bandwidth looks like. That said the point about it still being a lot safer to learn demonology with him than without him stands and keeping daemons out and maybe summoning saints with a bit of luck just became more important because of that.
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What Saints? Imperial Saints? Imperial Faith, which most of the Thread hates and didn't want to look into last time it came up? Forgive me if I am cynical in that I don't think that thread would go for that.
 
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Glau said:
It's very expensive in opportunity costs. That's the price. Get cramming but don't get warp comms is a tradeoff I don't want to make.



It's a hope that it will stop bongo from taking to others, but we didn't know he could do that and don't actually know what will stop him. This is a gamble.

If the whole point of demonology is to safely ditch bongo then we'll have spent an action and a half on ease of mind without further benefits.



Sure, but he was communicating freely with chaos forces in this system. Anthing you are worried about it sharing it already has, anything he didn't share he he probably would not share in the warp either.

I don't think it's a big enough risk to matter.




Too late. Bongo talked to the chaos marines and the chaos marines died. The horse has already left, no point in building elaborate locks for the barn door now.
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... There is a difference between knowing that a set of defenses have certain weaknesses and then there is an enemy actually having repeated experience of fighting against those defenses while being able to see exactly how those defenses react.
 
I'm not too worried about Bongo if it gets back to the Warp. Yeah, he will come after us with everything he's got but that won't amount to much really and we're only going to get better. Is he a threat? Of course but he's a threat we are prepared for. We will be ready for Bongo if it comes back, if some other Daemon doesn't get it first.
 
Neablis said:
Psychic Shielding: Outer Hull 100/240 HP, Vita Core 135 HP, Crew Quarters 135 HP, Basic Psychic Experimentation Lab 135 HP, Bongo Oubliette 510/540 HP, Secondary Vault 50 HP, Captive Holding cells 50 HP, (repair for 5 BP/point, can be repaired by repair bay)
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Neablis said:
Suffering from 125 bp of structure damage.
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They damaged us so little our repair bay is just enough to fix that up (except for the psy lab which happened before the battle)
 
[X] Aetherion

At this point Bongo is our mascot, and has paid for the damage and risks he presents many times over. We need to commit a little more RP to demonology and complete his transition to first demon crew member (half joking).

Just look at the difference over time. The first time Bongo broke containment, when we just started studying him, the results were near disaster but still under control. This time we faced a chaos cruiser collaborating with Bongo on the inside for a two pronged massive psychic assault on our ship and we dusted ourselves off as if they had lightly slapped us. Chaos is and always will be our biggest weakness, and we are well on our way to having excellent chaos defenses mostly because of Bongo.
 
As for the cultists we probably can stuff them in cryo pods under a psy shield, they are effectively test subjects to see if one can cure minior chaos corruption.

Wich we are ways away from even starting.
 
[X] Aetherion

Yeah I dunno what they'd pull here, but I'd just as soon not find out. Lets go put a stop to it.

After that, oh boy do we have a mess to clean up. My proposal:

[] Plan cleanup, prep for demonology & warp comms
-[] Diplomacy: Talk to Denva, get them to lend us as much industrial and research capacity as possible, and coordinate with them to get as much done with it as possible.
-[] Construction:
--[] Repair damage and scale industrial capacity, in whatever the optimum balance is
-[] Research x2:
--[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (75 RP)
--[] Alternative Shielding Meanings (150 RP)
--[] Psychic Encryption (150 RP)
--[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP)
--[] Superconductive Shenanigans (50 RP)


Not super happy with this. Really, really, really wish people had listened to me and started on warp comms sooner, and the demonology prep I wanted to do ages ago. I really don't think most of the stuff we did the last few turns was super relevant or important. But okay, no use crying over spilt milk. The point here is to:
  • Get better resistance to chaos and understanding of it. Faith is my Shield is the start of that tree. And if it lets us summon saints, I'm willing to give that a shot. MS Chaos Resistance is another important step forwards there, and is the prereq for MS Controlled Psychic Shields, which I think will be a big deal - and which is dirt cheap, too. Alternative shielding meanings also buys u some ground here - but most important of all is psychic encryption, which we've been putting off for far too long.
  • Prep for warp comms. Alternative Shielding Meanings is the direct prerequisite here, but all of the above are useful supporting techs, especially Pyschic Encryption.
  • Be able to put anyone inconvenient into a coma while we sort out who's who and what's what and decide who needs killing and who doesn't. What the drugs are for, mainly, with Psychic Encryption in a supporting role.
  • Boosting BP so we can rebuild better, faster. What the superconductors are for.
Plan is to do demonology next turn, and progress on warp comms as well. Also MS CPS, and hope for lots and lots of discounts... But, that all will need to wait for next turn. And yes, I am hoping to get like a hundred bonus RP out of Denva. Even with diminishing returns, I think it should be doable.
 
This scenario rather seems to invite things like:
Neablis said:
-[] The Taste of Chaos (300 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you might be able to discern some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors more sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though may unlock further research to screen for cultists who have participated in warp-rituals).
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Formerly they were solving problems we didn't really have, but imagine how useful that would be against the residue here.

(Not cheap though, I do love some superconductive.)
 
Angle said:
[X] Aetherion

Yeah I dunno what they'd pull here, but I'd just as soon not find out. Lets go put a stop to it.

After that, oh boy do we have a mess to clean up. My proposal:

[] Plan cleanup, prep for demonology & warp comms
-[] Diplomacy: Talk to Denva, get them to lend us as much industrial and research capacity as possible, and coordinate with them to get as much done with it as possible.
-[] Construction:
--[] Repair damage and scale industrial capacity, in whatever the optimum balance is
-[] Research x2:
--[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (75 RP)
--[] Alternative Shielding Meanings (150 RP)
--[] Psychic Encryption (150 RP)
--[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP)
--[] Superconductive Shenanigans (50 RP)


Not super happy with this. Really, really, really wish people had listened to me and started on warp comms sooner, and the demonology prep I wanted to do ages ago. I really don't think most of the stuff we did the last few turns was super relevant or important. But okay, no use crying over spilt milk. The point here is to:
  • Get better resistance to chaos and understanding of it. Faith is my Shield is the start of that tree. And if it lets us summon saints, I'm willing to give that a shot. MS Chaos Resistance is another important step forwards there, and is the prereq for MS Controlled Psychic Shields, which I think will be a big deal - and which is dirt cheap, too. Alternative shielding meanings also buys u some ground here - but most important of all is psychic encryption, which we've been putting off for far too long.
  • Prep for warp comms. Alternative Shielding Meanings is the direct prerequisite here, but all of the above are useful supporting techs, especially Pyschic Encryption.
  • Be able to put anyone inconvenient into a coma while we sort out who's who and what's what and decide who needs killing and who doesn't. What the drugs are for, mainly, with Psychic Encryption in a supporting role.
  • Boosting BP so we can rebuild better, faster. What the superconductors are for.
Plan is to do demonology next turn, and progress on warp comms as well. Also MS CPS, and hope for lots and lots of discounts... But, that all will need to wait for next turn. And yes, I am hoping to get like a hundred bonus RP out of Denva. Even with diminishing returns, I think it should be doable.
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It's unlikely we will be able to fully clear out chaos during this combat turn, gotta have at least one command action for further cleaning them out.
 
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