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Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Really, I think the choice here is what do we want to stop more: the Cultists making some ships or bombs with Aetherion, or the Cultists sacrificing a bunch of people on Klyssar's Nest to try summoning Daemons.
Honestly, I think we could take on anything Aetherion could build since it's just a few destroyers, I worry more about potential Daemon Summonings
Honestly, I think we could take on anything Aetherion could build since it's just a few destroyers, I worry more about potential Daemon Summonings
- Location
- Don't know
- Pronouns
- Whats/That
I am torn between the options we have. Securing Denva Secundus means a lot less cultists in the future. Primus I am less worried about as the inhabitants have dealt with hostile invaders before but not like Chaos. Though from what we've seen, it looks like they just bombed it for the most part. Kyssler's nest definitely needs assistance if we want the station mostly intact and a mostly uncorrupted population. Aetheron is a concern long term but the industry can be replaced and they can't leave without Warp Drives. Though it's likely they have way around that with daemons and such.
It's quite the conundrum, however I'll have to go with Kyssler's Nest a they really need our help while Secundus can handle the cultists, albiet to a lesser degree. The Industry can be handled in time as well, however, it will be trickier when those ships are built, but not insurmountable.
[X] Klyssar's Nest
It's quite the conundrum, however I'll have to go with Kyssler's Nest a they really need our help while Secundus can handle the cultists, albiet to a lesser degree. The Industry can be handled in time as well, however, it will be trickier when those ships are built, but not insurmountable.
[X] Klyssar's Nest
Yes, which is why we need to handle Aethon next turn if we do not vote for it. He should move to the Station using our first order and get orbital supremacy. The shipyard does not have void shields, we can just snipe it using lances.
I just dont think they have enough time to do any meaningful damage with their production if we dont ignore it for multiple turns.
- Location
- Boston
Actually, we just did this at the start of the turn. It even has psy shields built in.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] Aetherion
I don't want bingo to come with us when we leave the system. Destructive analysis or burned in the sun, but if it's got the ability to talk to our enemies without us really noticing then it's got to go.
Demonology is looking more and more like late game tech, not useful for a dozen turns. Research penalty is less than the turns of actions we have and will spend cleaning up after the caged demon.
What we need is the cultist sensors, and that's down a different path.
I don't want bingo to come with us when we leave the system. Destructive analysis or burned in the sun, but if it's got the ability to talk to our enemies without us really noticing then it's got to go.
Demonology is looking more and more like late game tech, not useful for a dozen turns. Research penalty is less than the turns of actions we have and will spend cleaning up after the caged demon.
What we need is the cultist sensors, and that's down a different path.
I'm hoping psychic encryption would jam Bongo's communications but it's also possible demonology would just let us either bind and command him to shut the hell up, or go a step further and bind him helplessly into a titanium cube or something.
Say, a question. I'm kind of feeling inspired to wirte some omake from the viewpoint of one of the non-space marines marines that ended up surrendering. But would crew on one of those big Chaos ships most likely be someone who was once an Imperial Marine and turned coat, just a descendant of a long line of people serving on that ship?
- Location
- Boston
While I agree with your sentiment it's very possible that destroying his physical vessel just releases him back to the Warp, where he can communicate freely.
I think the solution is binding him, but I'm not entirely sold on it either.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Those wouldn't be needed if we dismantled Bongo or threw him into the sun. It's a lot of work and a lot of alternate options sacrificed.
That isn't really relevant, honestly. We just killed a lot of Chaos Marines who will tattle to their patron/other daemons. Whether Chaos knows about us is no longer a pertinent factor; They will know about us regardless.
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[X] Notify W that we're going to try and ensure the Chaos worshippers don't get to rush the warships currently being built into service. With any luck, we'll retake the manufactories intact enough to provide more relevant numbers for other ground campaigns going forward.
[X] Aetherion
I love this. Talking to W about our plan negates any chance of a purely negative view of our actions, and I hate the idea of the Aetherion manufactories being used against us. Chaos doesn't need ANY advantages, but we can only negate one. This feels like the biggest one we need to negate.
[X] Ask W for which area she thinks we should deal with first
This also could be awesome. Let an experienced individual help guide or proverbial sword to maximize focus on whatever she believes would be of most benefit.
[X] Aetherion
I love this. Talking to W about our plan negates any chance of a purely negative view of our actions, and I hate the idea of the Aetherion manufactories being used against us. Chaos doesn't need ANY advantages, but we can only negate one. This feels like the biggest one we need to negate.
[X] Ask W for which area she thinks we should deal with first
This also could be awesome. Let an experienced individual help guide or proverbial sword to maximize focus on whatever she believes would be of most benefit.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We picked focus rather than pragmatism, but can I just say it's really neat that Cia's finishing move is to killzone things with conventional weapons? Like, she's done this twice in a row now, it's totally A Thing lmao.
I have lots of thoughts about the battle, but apparently there's no moratorium so I'll keep things brief until I have time to write them all out.
Anyways, our single hardest to clean up after problem right now is chaos cultists going to ground, so I think we should support Secondus.
Everywhere else, the warbanders are fish in a barrel we can isolate to a man, and screening for traitors and the lightly corrupted will be multiple orders of magnitude easier there, on those stations. The technology in reach for anti-cultist stuff can catch warpy things, but traditional sabotage? Not so much.
At any rate - as I discussed with Neablis before the update, we can take the currently unlisted "make stasis pods better" to shit out an expected 1 BP/pod to put POWs and the dangerously corrupted into until treatment or better screening is possible, and Neablis also confirmed Drugs gives us the capability to put folks into medically induced comas as a fallback option if we go over capacity.
Others have explained why chaos cultists are a danger even in an ironfisted prison camp, nevermind the problems with putting that many people into said prison communities. There are no good options for dealing with them before we have better treatment and screening technology, only shades of bad. Statis seems the least bad to me - go to sleep, wake them up when we're ready to help.
But our capacity to do that is going to be limited, and we can only do it if we know they're a cultist or dangerously corrupted, so anything that sharply reduces the number of suspects is worth its weight in gold.
I have lots of thoughts about the battle, but apparently there's no moratorium so I'll keep things brief until I have time to write them all out.
Anyways, our single hardest to clean up after problem right now is chaos cultists going to ground, so I think we should support Secondus.
Everywhere else, the warbanders are fish in a barrel we can isolate to a man, and screening for traitors and the lightly corrupted will be multiple orders of magnitude easier there, on those stations. The technology in reach for anti-cultist stuff can catch warpy things, but traditional sabotage? Not so much.
At any rate - as I discussed with Neablis before the update, we can take the currently unlisted "make stasis pods better" to shit out an expected 1 BP/pod to put POWs and the dangerously corrupted into until treatment or better screening is possible, and Neablis also confirmed Drugs gives us the capability to put folks into medically induced comas as a fallback option if we go over capacity.
Others have explained why chaos cultists are a danger even in an ironfisted prison camp, nevermind the problems with putting that many people into said prison communities. There are no good options for dealing with them before we have better treatment and screening technology, only shades of bad. Statis seems the least bad to me - go to sleep, wake them up when we're ready to help.
But our capacity to do that is going to be limited, and we can only do it if we know they're a cultist or dangerously corrupted, so anything that sharply reduces the number of suspects is worth its weight in gold.
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- Location
- Boston
I agree that catching the cultist before they go to ground is important and it would rate as top priority for me, except ..
We know Chaos has OMC tech now. Which means they can use the factories to their full extent. The level of production they can throw out can rapidly become a very large problem. I don't want to let them leverage that.
They were pulling people off Denva, they could even be a native Denvan. I do not think they would be imperials since the IoM hasn't been in this neck of the woods for something like three hundred years now so I think the options are:
- Denvan Janissary
- Hereditary crew of the Echo of Apotheosis
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JuliusClonkus
Scatterbrained Speculator
- Location
- Federal Reichspublic of Karlsland
W mentioned that they were recalling lots of people from the surface when we showed up, including janissaries. Slave soldiers.
There's an option for someone who's about as deep in the shit as you can get with still being possible to technically save.
Kinda thinking of having someone who just grew up there, but, I mean, obviously some folks aren't total lunatics in that they actually surrender rather than just fight to the death. And I like an opportunity to give a perspective of the Chaosy side of things that isn't some ancient, inhuman murderblender Chaos Marine
[x] Ask W for which area she thinks we should deal with first
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Well. Nice to see space marines being portrayed as scary as they should be. By which I mean that they are fucking terrifying when they are going after you. We are the ones with terminator robots, yet they keep getting shredded. Though having something like grav-weapons would have likely changed this scenario much more in our favor.
Anyway, good update! Still considering my own vote. Meanwhile:
That is a bold claim, saying that demonology is a late-game tech and will be useless for a long time, without knowing exactly what is inside. It could turn out to be useful for things like, oh I don't know. Disrupting daemon summoning rituals, banishing daemons back to the warp, better warding against the powers of Chaos... Which are now a much more feasible problems on Denva.
Also, you know what would have almost certainly actually prevented Bongo from talking? As KyleDaScourge said, Psychic Encryption. Which was in my plan for the last turn. Along with military tech development. But as people wanted to just keep researching uplift techs... Well, it is a choice I can respect if you have different priorities. But as we've just seen, it has its own dangers, even if we fortunately avoided a worst-case scenario on this turn.
Anyway, just saying that our only options are destructive analysis or just destroying Bongo's prison in the Materium is blind distate for daemonology research from my perspective. You say that there are risks involved why we shouldn't keep Bongo around for long enough to research him. And yeah, those dangers do exist. But they would be so much less so, if people would be actually willing to also research proper precautions at some point to keep the containment and future research into the subject as risk-free as feasible.
And as most of precautions are things we should research regardless for other reasons, it doesn't even have the excuse of wasting our RP on just keeping Bongo contained. Like just anti-divination from Psychic Encryption would be so damn useful to have, as we've just witnessed. Even if Bongo wasn't involved, because it is the kind of thing that will let our enemies target us where it hurts.
Anyway, just because you don't want to deal with having to handle daemons doesn't mean that we can completely avoid them. Like with a bad roll from Cia, not even a Nat 1, causing almost a daemonic manifestation if not for our psy lab eating the consequences. This is the safest we can research this subject, but people keep pushing back on first researching the steps required to do so safely.
Anyway, good update! Still considering my own vote. Meanwhile:
(EDIT: Sorry if the following part is somewhat told-you-so. Should've been more constructive when writing it.)
That is a bold claim, saying that demonology is a late-game tech and will be useless for a long time, without knowing exactly what is inside. It could turn out to be useful for things like, oh I don't know. Disrupting daemon summoning rituals, banishing daemons back to the warp, better warding against the powers of Chaos... Which are now a much more feasible problems on Denva.
Also, you know what would have almost certainly actually prevented Bongo from talking? As KyleDaScourge said, Psychic Encryption. Which was in my plan for the last turn. Along with military tech development. But as people wanted to just keep researching uplift techs... Well, it is a choice I can respect if you have different priorities. But as we've just seen, it has its own dangers, even if we fortunately avoided a worst-case scenario on this turn.
Anyway, just saying that our only options are destructive analysis or just destroying Bongo's prison in the Materium is blind distate for daemonology research from my perspective. You say that there are risks involved why we shouldn't keep Bongo around for long enough to research him. And yeah, those dangers do exist. But they would be so much less so, if people would be actually willing to also research proper precautions at some point to keep the containment and future research into the subject as risk-free as feasible.
And as most of precautions are things we should research regardless for other reasons, it doesn't even have the excuse of wasting our RP on just keeping Bongo contained. Like just anti-divination from Psychic Encryption would be so damn useful to have, as we've just witnessed. Even if Bongo wasn't involved, because it is the kind of thing that will let our enemies target us where it hurts.
Anyway, just because you don't want to deal with having to handle daemons doesn't mean that we can completely avoid them. Like with a bad roll from Cia, not even a Nat 1, causing almost a daemonic manifestation if not for our psy lab eating the consequences. This is the safest we can research this subject, but people keep pushing back on first researching the steps required to do so safely.
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My thought is Chaos is not an organised faction, and as far as we know no demon worlds or such have gotten information on us. And I think the station is the most likely place for demon summonings or such things to happen.
Additionally, we don't have the ability to fully purge Denva... hm. I'm also worried about Prime.
But yeah, I think the station is the most immediate danger.
Not that I disagree with you—I do think we need to get daemonology asap—but I don't think the "if we'd done what I'd said" discourse is very helpful. In part because those uplift techs are also useful—they will help rebuild Denva, and they will make it so our other allies will be on a better footing to avoid being similarly taken.
We should deal with Bongo yesterday, yes. Though I fear the need to extirpate Chaos in this system will keep us busy for a bit, we should get at least one of Faith or encryption this turn.
Yeah, the question is, which problem do we want to deal with the LEAST
[] Denva Primus
A possibility of surprises fucking around with the Vellkar
[] Denva Secundus
Chaos influences more enduring on Denva Secundus
[] Klyssar's Nest
Surprise demon summoning?
[] Aetherion
Lose manufacturing capability + whatever the spikies can built
[] Nowhere
Being low on forces and possibly open to a nasty surprise.
[] Denva Primus
A possibility of surprises fucking around with the Vellkar
[] Denva Secundus
Chaos influences more enduring on Denva Secundus
[] Klyssar's Nest
Surprise demon summoning?
[] Aetherion
Lose manufacturing capability + whatever the spikies can built
[] Nowhere
Being low on forces and possibly open to a nasty surprise.
Just. Research. Daemonology.
This isn't that hard. There's nothing standing in the way of doing it. You all have simply repeatedly refused to do it! Just do it! Spirit of Shia LaBeouf descend upon this thread!
Also, there is no unified force of Chaos. Chaos does not "have" anything. This warband has what they stole from Denva, then we killed them. Chaos Astartes rarely if ever come back from the dead.
Most if not all daemons are not going to give a damn about our tech either. It's nothing to them, the alien shadows of another realm. That is flat out not how they think. Even daemon binding isn't going to be interesting, plenty of people do that. The most available thing that they'd actually care about at all is true fire, for obvious reasons.
-[] Research x3 600 + 80
--[] Superconductive Shenanigans (50 RP)
--[] Miniaturized antigrav (50 RP)
--[] Demonology (70 + 80/150 RP)
--[] That's two levels of augmentation too many (150 RP)
--[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP)
--[] A Curio Cabinet of Cultists (100 RP)
--[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP)
--[] Intelligence Coding (5 RP -> 170/400 RP)
Hey, remember how I said that Denva would be incapable of major material research, and you all said not to vote for my plan because it was just doing something Denva was responsible for doing? Man, good times. Antigrav, superconductors, and large scale void are three fairly cheap techs that will establish us into not a decent but at least not bottom of the barrel manufacturing, as we have been continuously living with for a century now. Advanced Materials should follow, but it's expensive.
That material basis secured, just do Demonology. Just do it. Stop not doing it. Stop refusing progress and then demanding we dispose of Bongo when he does things, because of the refusal to do Daemonology. Just do it.
Now the biological/warp corruption section requires some logic explaination. We need Understanding Mutation and Companion Cogitators in order to get Cognitive Intervention. A fuckton of RP for a problem we have literally now. However, we have an in, inadvertantly given to us by the Chaos Astartes. Their autopsy project will discount mutation research, alongside a bevy of other biological research. By obtaining that first, we'll make mutation into a low cost project next turn.
But I hear you objecting already, the cultists! We have to kill everyone to stop the Corruption Point! You didn't research Taste of Chaos so we're going to get a Corruption Point! Worry ye not. Taste of Chaos is too deep of an RP cost for too shallow of a benefit at this juncture. It only lets us home in on full active cults, not the kind of stay-behinds we're going to see on Denva.
Rather, what will give us a path forward is Curio and Drugs. It's cheap and direct sampling rather than the theoretical basis of Taste. And for dealing with those cultists, Drugs will secure the future. Drugs includes truth serum and long-term sedation technologies that will let us keep our current and future cultist prisoners in a fairly safe state of not thinking about anything. And hey, we didn't even have to kill everyone on the planet to get there.
All together, this sets us up for a future docket of Advanced Materials, In Vitro, Mutation Understanding, and Comnpanion Cogitators. That likely will not be one turn or even two, but it's all present for use.
And then we can get Cognitive Intervention implants. And then, blessed be, the thread can stop spiralling about what Chaos Corruption is or is not forever. The greatest gift of Vitamas Past, Present, and Future.
This isn't that hard. There's nothing standing in the way of doing it. You all have simply repeatedly refused to do it! Just do it! Spirit of Shia LaBeouf descend upon this thread!
Also, there is no unified force of Chaos. Chaos does not "have" anything. This warband has what they stole from Denva, then we killed them. Chaos Astartes rarely if ever come back from the dead.
Most if not all daemons are not going to give a damn about our tech either. It's nothing to them, the alien shadows of another realm. That is flat out not how they think. Even daemon binding isn't going to be interesting, plenty of people do that. The most available thing that they'd actually care about at all is true fire, for obvious reasons.
-[] Research x3 600 + 80
--[] Superconductive Shenanigans (50 RP)
--[] Miniaturized antigrav (50 RP)
--[] Demonology (70 + 80/150 RP)
--[] That's two levels of augmentation too many (150 RP)
--[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP)
--[] A Curio Cabinet of Cultists (100 RP)
--[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP)
--[] Intelligence Coding (5 RP -> 170/400 RP)
Hey, remember how I said that Denva would be incapable of major material research, and you all said not to vote for my plan because it was just doing something Denva was responsible for doing? Man, good times. Antigrav, superconductors, and large scale void are three fairly cheap techs that will establish us into not a decent but at least not bottom of the barrel manufacturing, as we have been continuously living with for a century now. Advanced Materials should follow, but it's expensive.
That material basis secured, just do Demonology. Just do it. Stop not doing it. Stop refusing progress and then demanding we dispose of Bongo when he does things, because of the refusal to do Daemonology. Just do it.
Now the biological/warp corruption section requires some logic explaination. We need Understanding Mutation and Companion Cogitators in order to get Cognitive Intervention. A fuckton of RP for a problem we have literally now. However, we have an in, inadvertantly given to us by the Chaos Astartes. Their autopsy project will discount mutation research, alongside a bevy of other biological research. By obtaining that first, we'll make mutation into a low cost project next turn.
But I hear you objecting already, the cultists! We have to kill everyone to stop the Corruption Point! You didn't research Taste of Chaos so we're going to get a Corruption Point! Worry ye not. Taste of Chaos is too deep of an RP cost for too shallow of a benefit at this juncture. It only lets us home in on full active cults, not the kind of stay-behinds we're going to see on Denva.
Rather, what will give us a path forward is Curio and Drugs. It's cheap and direct sampling rather than the theoretical basis of Taste. And for dealing with those cultists, Drugs will secure the future. Drugs includes truth serum and long-term sedation technologies that will let us keep our current and future cultist prisoners in a fairly safe state of not thinking about anything. And hey, we didn't even have to kill everyone on the planet to get there.
All together, this sets us up for a future docket of Advanced Materials, In Vitro, Mutation Understanding, and Comnpanion Cogitators. That likely will not be one turn or even two, but it's all present for use.
And then we can get Cognitive Intervention implants. And then, blessed be, the thread can stop spiralling about what Chaos Corruption is or is not forever. The greatest gift of Vitamas Past, Present, and Future.
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