Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Prime 2.0 said:
I'd say give it a bit more thought, consider language on the degree (if any) to which Jack then lets crit rolls grab new techs from non-specialties, and then make a threadmark to say the vote has been clarified.
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If there are going to be even more changes, we'd also need a time extension on the voting period so that everyone can consider them. And... I'm not sure that's even worth doing? You can't always get vote options for game mechanics that are perfectly equal to each other. Especially not when players will ruthlessly analyze and optimize their numbers for any sliver of advantage they can get. The options could be tweaked even more, but at some point you have to commit to the options you've given. So far the votes have it that neither High Throughput Researcher nor Industrial Planner are in contention. Does that mean they need more buffs, or is it better to just accept that those options just aren't in the running?
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
meianmaru said:
I'm more looking forward to qualitive changes after the clarifications from Neablis. Because I think we can trust an option that is better at specialties when it says it is all about specialties.

On actually getting the specialties besides what she already have... With Vita's +20 to all research giving range of 76-100 for critting for those rolls? I don't think it will be that much of a problem.
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Well, that would be on average 4 rolls before we even get a new speciality all without a bonus... . Also i just feel like it fits Anexas character better she always wanted to learn absolutely everything, vitas entire database. She didnt really feel like someone that obsesses over a few things over everything else.
 
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Neablis said:
I think that was a suggestion I'd made without fully thinking it through. It's probably a good way for it to work, but it would be a nightmare to implement. So instead each option slightly changes how the passive works:
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action, which will only hit her specialties.
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...Okay, this has me sold on MoMT. concentrating passive research on Anexa's specialties? Yes please.
 
Amerigo Vespucci said:
That's good thinking! For me, it came down to two factors. No. 1, we can increase RP by spending building points — building labs and such things. I don't think there's an equivalent way to increase rolls by spending BP.
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I don't think this is true. If we had buildings that would increase RP, we'd have built a hundred of them. None of the current unlocked lab installations do that. They act as prerequisites and might mitigate some side effects.
 
[x] Space Marine: Talk
-[x] "I am Explorer Vita, representing the memory of the Stellar Federation. I am not an enemy of the emperor unless he decrees otherwise. I believe we have much to offer eachother, as I have heard good things about space marines, and would like to negotiate peaceful exchanges of supplies and information if you are willing."

[x] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
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[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes
 
Neablis said:
But you have 4 actions each turn. I was more imagining that most turns would be 1-2 research actions, 1-2 exploration actions, 1-2 diplomacy/looting actions from the last exploration actions.
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40k is a scary place and corruption is a real concern. Once we have the warp tech and guns to not die at the first encounter people might be a bit more adventurous.
 
[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

She shall be our Belisarius Cawl. On top of that, we get two more perks later on at least. If there won't be many more specialities than the 15 or so we can see now, why not have someone who can specialize in almost all of them?

Not to mention it fits her 'learn everything' characterization so much better than Jack. Heck, maybe there'll be an option at 20 to lower the roll needed for obtaining a speciality, or have her active research bonus affect any and all applicable fields she specializes in- meaning researching both Machine Spirit and Warp Tech in the same research turn would get her bonus on both.

There's every chance it'll be better or worse than I've suggested. But still, something to keep in mind.

[X] Cia: Yes

The obvious fact that we can easily get another Psyker bean with one good diplomacy and use him for our commander/generalist needs aside, she wants this. Let her be what she wants to be, and give her the chance to do what she feels she's best at. Encourage, instead of discourage. That feels more like Vita to me.
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes

So, I just spent the entirety of last night unable to sleep because one of the dogs Would not shut up, being me is suffering.
 
ShadeFiende said:
Not to mention it fits her 'learn everything' characterization so much better than Jack.
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Hmmm.... nah?

Just as MoMT is about making specialties better, Jack is about making "do everything" better. MoMT lets you build tall much faster in exchange for having roads you can never take.

In the context of a quest that will realistically have a finite length, even in the best case where this runs for years and years and years, both are choices about what research we ultimately see. We are never meant to run out, after all.

But the characterization is quite clear. MoMT is a narrowing of focus to knowledge for something, jack is a doubling down on seeking all of it - especially in the implication of what Anexa does with her free time. In MoMT, she will be, if not solely working within her specialty (even if that's the current interpretation), then mostly doing so. When left to her own devices, her quest for knowledge unending will be about those things, rather than all knowledge.

It's a significant characterization development.

Mind you, it's not like jack isn't also a significant development either - Anexa has shown a disinterest outside her focus repeatedly as well, and Jack would presumably move away from that move further towards "I want it all".

But those are the sides. Devoting herself to select, if growing, fields - or to spread herself over as much as she can.
 
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[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes
 
ShadeFiende said:
[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

She shall be our Belisarius Cawl. On top of that, we get two more perks later on at least. If there won't be many more specialities than the 15 or so we can see now, why not have someone who can specialize in almost all of them?

Not to mention it fits her 'learn everything' characterization so much better than Jack. Heck, maybe there'll be an option at 20 to lower the roll needed for obtaining a speciality, or have her active research bonus affect any and all applicable fields she specializes in- meaning researching both Machine Spirit and Warp Tech in the same research turn would get her bonus on both.

There's every chance it'll be better or worse than I've suggested. But still, something to keep in mind.

[X] Cia: Yes

The obvious fact that we can easily get another Psyker bean with one good diplomacy and use him for our commander/generalist needs aside, she wants this. Let her be what she wants to be, and give her the chance to do what she feels she's best at. Encourage, instead of discourage. That feels more like Vita to me.
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Jack of All knowledge will also be upgraded at 20/30 with probably equally great upgrades.
But the thing is, the longer i think about Master the worse it gets. Keep in mind we are keeping this without change for the next 8 lvl's.

1. To get a speciality we need to crit with no bonus, other than vitas, on ACTIVE research. Which means most of the time the speciality slots wont even be filled.

2. The main draw of this talent is the PASSIVE because of the extra research opportunities through crits.

3. I dont think there will be many turns were we do 0 research, so we will mostly use our ACTIVE.

4. We have a lot of fundamental research still to go through like Intelligence coding for which it is impossible(or extremly unlikely) to get a speciality before we research it so those wont get ANY bonus.

5. And on the turns where we actually use the ACTIVE for our speciality's to get that +10 its not even better than Jack. At lvl 11-12 we get a +9 from Jack, from 13-15 we get a +10, 16-18 a +11 and lvl 19 a +12.

Also lets be honest its less that the Speciality option fits the "learn everything" theme better than the one that literally buffs everything, its just got the cooler name...
 
I mean, Vita's bonus is actually really high, and makes it a 30% chance? That's not a gimmie but that's also kind of an inevitability?

And most of the rest of those is comparing high level Jack with Master's baseline specialty boost, which doesn't really seem fair. Especially since "Master will also get better at level 20", another doubling might be entirely in the cards, or even something like "If you're focused on a Specialty, double your RP generated"
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher
[X] Cia: Yes
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[X] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[X] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[X] I want to make friends and cooperate against mutual threats.
-[X] I do not claim ownership of Denva, but I have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and I will protect it.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
 
Alectai said:
I mean, Vita's bonus is actually really high, and makes it a 30% chance? That's not a gimmie but that's also kind of an inevitability?

And most of the rest of those is comparing high level Jack with Master's baseline specialty boost, which doesn't really seem fair. Especially since "Master will also get better at level 20", another doubling might be entirely in the cards, or even something like "If you're focused on a Specialty, double your RP generated"
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That 30% means we have to roll like 3-4 times on non-speciality research with no bonus, its just extremly awkward.
I mean yeah, there are many ways neablis could make an upgrade for Jack aswell just +50% the bonus, maybe her being knowledgable in everything lets her combine the bonus of 2 specialities on a research like Machine spirit controlled psychic shielding in exchange for a smaller bonus like only +2 or because everything is in her interest maybe she gets the ability to help others lvl.
About the other thing i wrote that was Jack before lvl20 not "high level" with changes from an upgrade, the +5 from the already aquired specialities stays if we take Jack. And also its not like we stop getting specialities with Jack.
 
OfManyForms said:
That 30% means we have to roll like 3-4 times on non-speciality research with no bonus, its just extremly awkward.
I mean yeah, there are many ways neablis could make an upgrade for Jack aswell just +50% the bonus, maybe her being knowledgable in everything lets her combine the bonus of 2 specialities on a research like Machine spirit controlled psychic shielding in exchange for a smaller bonus like only +2 or because everything is in her interest maybe she gets the ability to help others lvl.
About the other thing i wrote that was Jack before lvl20 not "high level" with changes from an upgrade, the +5 from the already aquired specialities stays if we take Jack. And also its not like we stop getting specialities with Jack.
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MoMT has some boot-up time, yes. It's already on a couple of really high value things
though, and one thing I think is clear is that while it won't be the absolute norm, we're not actually going to lack for situations where we think it would be nice to hurry up a tech. We've been doing it all along so far, after all.
 
Utilizing Master of Many Talents is going to require us to avoid doing any research actions for many turns. That just doesn't feel fun to me. I really enjoy the research we do every turn, and I don't want to only do research on some turns. Plus, we'll effectively be punished for doing too much research, since not putting Anexa on her passive action often enough means we're not benefiting from the trait properly. It feels bad to me either way.
 
Derpmind said:
Utilizing Master of Many Talents is going to require us to avoid doing any research actions for many turns. That just doesn't feel fun to me. I really enjoy the research we do every turn, and I don't want to only do research on some turns. Plus, we'll effectively be punished for doing too much research, since not putting Anexa on her passive action often enough means we're not benefiting from the trait properly. It feels bad to me either way.
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Er... what? We can still do research normally, there is no obligation to min-max the trait.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
MoMT has some boot-up time, yes. It's already on a couple of really high value things
though, and one thing I think is clear is that while it won't be the absolute norm, we're not actually going to lack for situations where we think it would be nice to hurry up a tech. We've been doing it all along so far, after all.
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Thats the thing though for the specialities we have right now Warp and Machine Spirits Jack is most of the time better without any awkwardness. Its worse for the other 2 specialities yes, but for all of the incredibly important foundational research we will have no extra bonus because we will have no speciality for them if we pick Master.
 
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