I think that is generally how people making that mistake think of it.
Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm, an interesting one. Though there may be a reason there wasn't an option like this in the first place, because it's not as though "Counterattack and get the drop on them before they can do their trap thing" is an idea that would be beyond what Usagi can think of.
Probably "invest actions in training Martial." The complication is that the girls' very high Martial scores (enhanced by some of their magical girl abilities) tend to conflate the questions of "how good are they at fighting" and "how good are they at tactics."
Uhhhh.
First, are you sure that "they ask you not to mean directly" means "they ask you not perform an intervention that is direct in its manner" as opposed to "they directly ask you not to intervene?" Because it's fairly clear to me that the intent of Trust Your Allies is "do as MCAT says if they don't want you showing up because it's a trap," not "weasel word their exact phrasing," and for that matter their exact phrasing is not predictable from a high-level abstract vote like this.
...
Think about how you would have to write the vote if the options were combined into a single vote on "Show Up Or Not" AND "Attitude Towards Trap."
You'd need three variants ("Show Up And Spring," "Show Up and Ignore," "Show Up And Evade.") plus a fourth for "Do Not Show Up If MCAT Asks Not To."
(We can infer that it never really occurred to Usagi to not show up if MCAT did ask for help, and that they would have to specifically ask her to stay away for her to even consider doing so, because she's that kind of girl)
The decision of how to react if MCAT says "please do not come near the specific anti-goddess trap" is very much separate from the decision of how to treat the anti-goddess trap if we DO choose to come anywhere near it.
Alternatively, we might just find the effect of the third vote nullified by our obedience to our allies' wishes because of the second vote.
Well, the point here is that Samui may ask the Senshi to stay out, and I think we're getting a vote on how to react to that if it happens.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, there's a difference between saying "I'm going to keep a secret from you because I don't want you to worry and try to send me away" and saying "if you're in danger, I'm going to do my level best to show up and help, and I won't let your assessment of the danger TO ME stop me."
They do both have the net effect of "you don't get to decide to send me away because of the danger," but the exact manner in which it happens is very different.
We have no other areas of interest known as immediately viable areas of attack. Even if we did, it is doubtful whether such an attack would result in a diversion of effort on Onogoro's part. Onogoro probably can't just casually teleport people around the way we do, especially since we captured what is quite possibly the only Skyslip within a 100-mile radius a month ago. Furthermore, they have precious few sites that would be important enough to justify a diversion of effort from something like this, especially when the force hitting them (the Senshi) is one they almost certainly know by now is a lot more mobile than they are.
The way you counter someone who can teleport all over the place hitting you at will but usually chooses not to is NOT to rush your forces around (slowly) while she teleports around stinging you rapidly. It is to build up a powerful force and aim it at a target whose destruction will actually hurt her, such that she is forced to choose between fighting you at a time and place of your choosing, or ignoring you and risking that you will succeed in destroying that target.
Notably, it is not clear from the wording of the vote whether the nature of the trap involves a small team with something specialized, or a wide-scale, coordinated action taken by a large group.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] Plan Proactive
Helping someone who doesn't want to be helped is more in character for Usagi, I'd say.
Also, regardless of how much we trust MCAT, I would rather not lose an ally to overconfidence.
Also also, I kinda want to see what Onogoro's trap was supposed to do and I'm not sure we could do that if we don't at least pretend to walk into it.
Helping someone who doesn't want to be helped is more in character for Usagi, I'd say.
Also, regardless of how much we trust MCAT, I would rather not lose an ally to overconfidence.
Also also, I kinda want to see what Onogoro's trap was supposed to do and I'm not sure we could do that if we don't at least pretend to walk into it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, there's a difference between saying "I'm going to keep a secret from you because I don't want you to worry and try to send me away" and saying "if you're in danger, I'm going to do my level best to show up and help, and I won't let your assessment of the danger TO ME stop me."
They do both have the net effect of "you don't get to decide to send me away because of the danger," but the exact manner in which it happens is very different.
We have no other areas of interest known as immediately viable areas of attack. Even if we did, it is doubtful whether such an attack would result in a diversion of effort on Onogoro's part. Onogoro probably can't just casually teleport people around the way we do, especially since we captured what is quite possibly the only Skyslip within a 100-mile radius a month ago. Furthermore, they have precious few sites that would be important enough to justify a diversion of effort from something like this, especially when the force hitting them (the Senshi) is one they almost certainly know by now is a lot more mobile than they are.
The way you counter someone who can teleport all over the place hitting you at will but usually chooses not to is NOT to rush your forces around (slowly) while she teleports around stinging you rapidly. It is to build up a powerful force and aim it at a target whose destruction will actually hurt her, such that she is forced to choose between fighting you at a time and place of your choosing, or ignoring you and risking that you will succeed in destroying that target.
Notably, it is not clear from the wording of the vote whether the nature of the trap involves a small team with something specialized, or a wide-scale, coordinated action taken by a large group.
Unnati is an Indian archmage who only showed up in sidestories. Her actual 'mission' in Japan is to make contact with Naru, but this is as a sort of tentative "maybe it will help with" her real goal of finding out what the fuck happened back in May when the Indian lunar deity, Chandra, suddenly had an extremely bad trip and started lashing out with weird magics while she was about ten feet away. And, ideally, negotiating an arrangement by which that never happens again.
We can infer from the timing that the event which sparked her to come here is because he got caught up in a feedback loop when Usagi, the avatar of the moon, got high off the magical 'soma' which Chandra, a deity of the moon, invented and/or cultivates. But Chandra doesn't know that, nor does Unnati.
Apparently, Unnati somehow learned of the impending Onogoro attack and decided to warn us. But she showed up at Crystal Millennium on Tuesday, while Sailor Moon was sleeping off resurrecting that guy during the Choshi City raid and the rest of the Senshi were scattered all over the place except for Naru. Naru passed word on to Usagi and, presumably, to MCAT.
You could equally well argue that naming the other option 'Trust Your Allies' makes the first option read as 'Distrust Your Allies' no matter what the text says. And indeed, some people seem to have accepted exactly that.
Perhaps it would be more reasonable for everyone involved to just assume that there are two opposed ideas here that both reflect traits which could reasonably be called virtuous, and that neither of the ideas is inherently vicious. We very rarely if ever get votes where any of the options involve Sailor Moon doing anything that is clearly wrong in an ethical sense when you consider the situation she's in, and even these votes generally do not involve deliberately mistreating a friend or ally.
It seems likely that the exact wording of that vote option is a reference to the 1990s DiC dub of Sailor Moon and the song lyrics it came up with to replace the lyrics to Moonlight Densetsu. The DiC lyrics may be known to you; they begin with the phrase "Fighting evil by moonlight, winning love by daylight..."
Well, if your friend asks you to not show up to a fight, if you then do not do so, it's not really turning your back on them.
On the other hand, we probably shouldn't rationalize some elaborate scenario where if MCAT says "please do not show up to this," it means the Senshi will somehow do some complicated thing somewhere else that ruptures the Onogoro attack plan from a different angle if MCAT didn't ask them to do that instead.
Sometimes, agreeing to not show up to a battle is just plain agreeing to not show up to that battle.
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Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Maybe. What I do know is that if I were in charge of the Ministry, I would take this opportunity to nuke MCAT off the face of the Home Islands. I would make this a decisive battle, because my organization is decrepit and has a remit that extends all across the Home Islands.
For now I have a numerical advantage, but it is rapidly diminishing over time. My pool of potential recruits is insufficient for fighting a war of attrition against a foe that freely recruits from the population of mundane Japan.
Add on to that, the responsibilities of my organization mean that the majority of my troops are spread out across the countryside playing magic police. I cannot afford to muster significant force for an extended period of time without causing civil disruptions. Furthermore it takes significant time for me to muster said force.
Bureaucratic delays and logistical snarls prevent me from being able to concentrate and mobilize the soldiers necessary to counter the opposition, who make use of small formations of elites to conduct lightning strikes, in time. If I take things slow and gather the troop strength necessary it's too late. If I hurry things along with what is there it's not enough. If it's the Senshi, I won't be able to mess with or keep up with them either way.
The enemy enjoys local superiority and they don't suffer the manpower sinks that I do.
I cannot afford to fight a long war and I cannot win on their terms. What I need to do is to force a decisive battle. To earn a decisive victory.
In order to do that I have to strike now, when MCAT is still so few in number that I can outnumber them by stripping patrols and mobilizing my reserves. While they're limited to a single base that they cannot afford to lose and not later when they're scattered across the country in facilities that won't publicly list their addresses.
The longer I take the lesser my advantages become. Later on I won't be able to sweep away MCAT in a single battle. I won't have the strength or the opportunity. I have to go all in because this chance won't come again and because otherwise MCAT won't either. And if I don't make this a battle to decide MCAT's fate, the elusive Senshi won't take the bait and I won't be able to spring the trap that I've been preparing for them.
Then there's getting Little Brother to play ball by killing off the competition.
Yup! Here's the bit from Under a Rainbow Sky - Part 10 that covers the encounter. I particularly like the part where they were looking for Naru only to be told by Sei that they weren't around.
- Location
- United States
[x] [Trap] Let MCAT know
[x] [Partycrashing] Trust Your Allies
[x] [Attitude] Spring
[x] [Partycrashing] Trust Your Allies
[x] [Attitude] Spring
Okay, but these are all considerations MCAT should also be aware of, and that should, if anything, weigh more heavily on them. There's nothing here that gives us a reason to second-guess their judgement.
- Location
- S.E.A
[X] Plan Proactive
-[X][Trap] Let MCAT know
-[X][Partycrashing] Never Turn Your Back On A Friend
-[X][Attitude] Spring
-[X][Trap] Let MCAT know
-[X][Partycrashing] Never Turn Your Back On A Friend
-[X][Attitude] Spring
SuperBigMac
My titles: MacTheEditor; SuperiorPosterior
- Location
- Untitled States of Disarray
- Pronouns
- N/A
For whatever reason, the idea of Fate/Stay Night having some rather big changes to its setting due to everything going on right now popped up in my head. This is the stupidest one:
"I am your Civil Servant, Scepter. I must ask of you, are you my taxpayer?"
"I am your Civil Servant, Scepter. I must ask of you, are you my taxpayer?"
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Well, there's also the alternate reading of "because that's how your back starts sprouting knives," but even my paranoid ass doesn't think that one applies in this case.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean, isn't that basically "Evade"?
- Location
- Louisville, KY
This is my exact reading of "Never Turn Your Back On A Friend."
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
While I probably need to check dates, the framework of the earliest stuff (Old Fate and Mahoyo) should be around because Nasu came up with it in highschool. Alterations on that front are likely on popular appeal(though I imagine Gil's picking up some SM stuff). The thing more likely to get significantly affected* by events is Tsukihime, given the lunar legend** running around.
Alternatively, instead of me taking the question seriously: Medea is now a Precure.
*Kara no Kyoukai's Origin stuff fits somewhat well with the existing element stuff, and Mahoyo already has framework and covers Bullshit Exceptions
**Though technically speaking Arc's qualifications place her as Sailor Earth, not Moon.
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DarkHabit
Soldier of Twilight
- Location
- the border of good and evil
At first I was going to question if a primal goddess would be able to activate a Pretty Cure artifact... then I remembered Cure Armour who is explicitly a robot.
[X][Trap] Let MCAT know
[X][Partycrashing] Never Turn Your Back On A Friend
[X][Attitude] Evade
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well yes. The point is, there's a difference between "vote to not tell MCAT that there's a trap for the Senshi involved in the attack plan" and "vote to tell MCAT, but if MCAT tries to tell you not to come help them, ignore them." They're not the same thing, contra what Silverking said.
"Evade" means "prioritize not getting caught up in the trap." That is different from "try to hit them before they can deploy the trap at all."
The point is that Usagi doesn't seem to have 'Try to hit them first, forestalling the deployment of the trap' as an option, even after she has been given some noteworthy information about the trap's nature. There may be a reason for that. It's not as if Usagi isn't capable of thinking of the idea of "hit them before they hit us," so it's probably not simply just a case of the voters needing to remind her that that's a possibility.
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Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
*Amour. Cure Armour is presumably that time a Precure got turned into a giant robot.
But yes, I'm not sure what can't become a Precure other than what I vaugely recall of Usagi skipping that step, the Senshi just generally outgun that option.
- Location
- Attached to a wall
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X][Trap] Let MCAT know
[X][Partycrashing] Never Turn Your Back On A Friend
[X][Attitude] Evade
[X][Partycrashing] Never Turn Your Back On A Friend
[X][Attitude] Evade
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Shoot first" seems like an example of "prioritize not getting hit"
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I feel like either we've lost sight of what we're talking about, or that you're prioritizing coming up with clever interpretations of the text at the expense of the plain-language reading and interpretation of the text.
The normal understanding of "evade an enemy attack" is not "pre-empt the enemy attack by getting in the first shot." Those are not, in common usage, the same thing. It would be unreasonble to look at a vote option that says something like:
[ ][Attitude] Evade
- Knowing roughly what she expects the trap to do, Usagi can still try to help MCAT, but in a way that, so far as possible, denies Onogoro a good opportunity to use the trap in the first place.
Downside: This will limit what the Senshi can do to take down the Onogoro forces directly attacking MCAT.
Upside: It will be nearly impossible for Onogoro to spring the trap on all the Senshi who are present, and very difficult for them to be sure of getting any,[/b]
and interpret it as "clearly, this is Usagi planning a pre-emptive attack that knocks out the trap entirely before it can be used at all."
Among other things, if the intent were to say "launch a pre-emptive attack," it would be very easy to say so directly.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't follow.
If you shoot themdead before they can activate their trap, then they have been denied a good opportunity to use it.
It's not the only way to do the "evade" option, but it is a way.
Almech_Alfarion
(Unverified Paradox)
- Location
- Roaming the Void of the Space between Spaces
Except you are not "evading" the trap. Evasion means avoiding the situation entirely. Preemptively attacking is preemptively attacking, ergo seeking a confrontation under the hope of removing the target before it can be used against you, but not necessarily depending on whatever stage of their preparations they are at.
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RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Attacking at a time when they don't have the trap available doesn't seem all that different from attacking at a place where they don't have the trap available.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Downside: This will limit what the Senshi can do to take down the Onogoro forces directly attacking MCAT.
Hitting hard right off the bat is the Senshi's plan A. Not much of a limit.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
I think the issue is that you are postulating a scenario where "shooting the godhunters first" is an option that will be explicitly available to us, when there's a very good chance that they will be waiting in the wings under invisibility spells until the Senshi show up to fight whoever's on the front line. Provoking the godhunters into revealing themselves is more of a "Spring" option, while "Evade" leans towards avoiding a situation where the Senshi would be caught by surprise in the first place.