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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Regardless of what we want to do with Hollow Man, giving him to demons empowers them. And they are our enemy. So, no, don't give enemies valuables.

[X] Make it a counter offer it can't refuse: it will give you its name, to be bound for a century and a day, or it will serve as your meal and crafting supplies
-[X] Intimidation excellency
-[X] Use Source Code Compliance Protocol just before it replies, so it's forced to reply in First Tongue, giving you the fullest understanding of its name
--[X] If it refuses, use essence to let wizards speak with no issue, and kill it (use MiM)
-[X] STUNT: A crown of fire blazes upon your brow, the flames cascading down your figure and lapping around the edge of your soul-turned-sword. Your words echo with the winds of deepest winter, the cold at the end of all Creation: "A heir you name me, of the forgotten king. A reminder then, I shall name you, of what happens to those of your kind who oppose such as I. Your name, you will give me, to serve faithfully for a century and a day hence, or your very being I shall take, to forge to an eternal testament of your kind's arrogance. Choose now"

@DragonParadox is it Incarna level or below? Does Demonic Primacy affect it?
 
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Yog said:
Regardless of what we want to do with Hollow Man, giving him to demons empowers them. And they are our enemy. So, no, don't give enemies valuables.
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Your plan is predicated on the belief that this guy can't just run away though. If we start threatening it and burn an essence on intimidation he's probably not going to bother sticking around.

DragonParadox said:
Also there is a good chance it just sends itself back to hell if you attack, its summoner is dead, it has no obligation to stick around
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He straight up can refuse. He can just run.
 
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I don't think the demon's cover story will stand up to the scrutiny Molly has been inviting with her use of the crown. It probably would help delay more questioning and give pause to some of the wizards, but there are so many of the highest level in the council with desperate cause to investigate, that I don't see this working.

I think the demon is just an opportunist trying to get what it can while it's free, maybe make innroads with the powerful newcomer Molly, maybe stick it to the outsiders. It may be a fair deal, can't say, but that doesn't mean it is worth Molly's time or essence.

I favor attacking, to get it out of the way and continue the raid and rescue mission in progress. Let it run, or make it a meal.

[X] Let the wizards speak... they look like they are about to 'speak' evocations
 
[X] Ask the wizards to prevent the Demon from escaping back to whatever Hell spawned it for as long as they are able, then kill it.
[X] Let the wizards speak... they look like they are about to 'speak' evocations

Iron Roby said:
[X] Let the wizards speak... they look like they are about to 'speak' evocations

[X] Goldfish

Not only no, hell no (pun fully intended). This would be such a bad idea. I'm not even a Christian myself, yet even I know that selling someone's soul to a demon, because "they will end up in hell anyway" is not even a slippery slope anymore, you have slid right off!

1) We know other afterlives exist, we can't say with total certainty where they would end up.

2) Even if we knew with absolute certainty they are going to hell, "helping" somebody to go there faster is probably the most unchristian thing to do (as opposed to trying to save people from hell until to the last possible minute on deathbed).

3) From pagan/secular perspective, we are a ruler of a proper Constructive Hell. Torture Hells should offend us not only on a moral, but professional level. We should never give them the validation of any trade, especially not soul trade.

4) If you want a pragmatic reason, the wizards we want to trust us would be looking at as engaging in soul trade right in front of them.
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Yeah, there are only three kinds of soul trade I think are acceptable.

1) Buying souls from bad actors for the purpose of freeing them as quickly as possible when we don't otherwise have the ability to break their chains by force. Feeding the slavers money instead of bullets is bad, but sometimes it's the best option you have for saving their victims.

2) In the case of people who've sold parts of their souls but haven't lost their lives or free will it's a dark grey but not fully evil act to buy those soul shards from their patrons and sell them back to the original owner for a reasonable price.

In order to stay grey you can't sell them to anyone else or horrifically extort them. The part that keeps it grey instead of black is keeping the pricing low enough that any objective actor would call us going to the trouble doing the soul in question a favor. A "retrieved this from hell for you fee" instead of holding their spiritual autonomy over their head. Even then I'd generally feel gross doing this.

3) Renting. The rules for doing things like giving investments and providing certain services as hell Queen require us to have possession of people's souls in whole or part, but they don't require us to do evil things to them or keep them.

We'd have to be creative with our income stream for this to work since we'd never keep the souls to torture for power*. However, as long as original agreement magically enforces an absolute right of return of "possession" to the person themselves at any time, for any reason, and automatically at death** I don't think it'd be wrong to do.


* I do wonder if we could set up something closer to the true purpose of the hells in place of this. Moderns hells get power from torture, but the design intent was for them to be a medical service for the soul.

Purifying sin and achieving enlightenment is evidently a painful process. It'd be really neat if we could trade the dead trials in Sanctuary for the pain they leave behind. No deliberate torture, more like trading time under a heat lamp to a snake for the skin in sheds while molting.

When they're ready for the afterlife they take a train out of the Amethyst city to meet see what's next. Arguably it's even a Christian way to run a pagan afterlife because you're helping people find salvation before their final judgment.

** Assuming they don't want to go to our hell. Soul contracts would be a useful way to keep our people safe on Earth, and as an insurance product to other mortals. Either to enter the process from the aside above, or to just leave and resume their lives.
Yog said:
Regardless of what we want to do with Hollow Man, giving him to demons empowers them. And they are our enemy. So, no, don't give enemies valuables.

[X] Make it a counter offer it can't refuse: it will give you its name, to be bound for a century and a day, or it will serve as your meal and crafting supplies
-[X] Intimidation excellency
-[X] Use Source Code Compliance Protocol just before it replies, so it's forced to reply in First Tongue, giving you the fullest understanding of its name
--[X] If it refuses, use essence to let wizards speak with no issue, and kill it (use MiM)
-[X] STUNT: A crown of fire blazes upon your brow, the flames cascading down your figure and lapping around the edge of your soul-turned-sword. Your words echo with the winds of deepest winter, the cold at the end of all Creation: "A heir you name me, of the forgotten king. A reminder then, I shall name you, of what happens to those of your kind who oppose such as I. Your name, you will give me, to serve faithfully for a century and a day hence, or your very being I shall take, to forge to an eternal testament of your kind's arrogance. Choose now"

@DragonParadox is it Incarna level or below? Does Demonic Primacy affect it?
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Wouldn't it basically be a spy for hell embedded in any task we set it to? It's also of limited use in a lot of ways because being seen to associate with it would confirm people's worst biases against Molly.

I don't think it's wise to keep it around longer than this event at most. Might be better to just point blank tell him he's going to need a better bribe if he doesn't want to be snack food and see what he offers.

Also, there's another opportunity to cover our ass here without bargaining with this guy for pants.

It's not as solid as having a demon launder the names, but the reason we give for denying him can set part of an explanation for why we know what we know. We need to be careful about the implications and in any case they won't buy it wholesale, but people love narratives and comforting enough ones will make people lie to themselves to keep them.
 
Iron Roby said:
Even if we knew with absolute certainty they are going to hell, "helping" somebody to go there faster is probably the most unchristian thing to do (as opposed to trying to save people from hell until to the last possible minute on deathbed).
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Not saying I agree or disagree but Molly is Catholic not Christian and described the Hollow man as the "furthest thing from God you can possibly be". She more than likely does not see it this way as DP said.

Bottom line it wouldn't be out of character in this instance.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
Wouldn't it basically be a spy for hell embedded in any task we set it to? It's also of limited use in a lot of ways because being seen to associate with it would confirm people's worst biases against Molly.

I don't think it's wise to keep it around longer than this event at most. Might be better to just point blank tell him he's going to need a better bribe if he doesn't want to be snack food and see what he offers.

Also, there's another opportunity to cover our ass here without bargaining with this guy for pants.

It's not as solid as having a demon launder the names, but the reason we give for denying him can set part of an explanation for why we know what we know. We need to be careful about the implications and in any case they won't buy it wholesale, but people love narratives and comforting enough ones will make people lie to themselves to keep them.
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We don't actually need to use it. Having it bound for a century and a day gets it out of circulation, as it was, allows us to study it, and in principles allows us to keep talking to it. A century of exalted grade socialization? We might redeem it yet.

Mainly, I want it bound so it cannot cause trouble elsewhere, and to study it.


BoredMan said:
Your plan is predicated on the belief that this guy can't just run away though. If we start threatening it and burn an essence on intimidation he's probably not going to bother sticking around.
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And I would absolutely count this as a success of my plan.
 
Yog said:
And I would absolutely count this as a success of my plan.
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What? Why?? The wizards can more than likely take care of it. Why would you have us burn essence if he just runs away and we don't get to MiM him? Just let the wizards do their thing at that point.

Edit: Your plan has us burn essence on intimidation excellency and then even more so the wizards can speak without their ears bleeding. Rather than use essence like water why not just let them handle it like they already are?
 
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As far as I am concerned this is a boss encounter that solved itself when the enemy botched. I am just about done going "sorry, no deal. Head on home before we have problems."

Spend no resources here because this situation has more or less already been solved.
 
To expand on what I meant with the redirect, I'm talking about doing something like pretending to slip up during a bit of demonic boasting and giving a false lead on the crown. For example, implying that Molly can see his influence because the sins he's committed gave her a claim on his soul, or that she has a particular advantage over outsiders.

They won't just buy it outright, but hints can help shape perception.

frozenchicken said:
[X] Say you will take the bargain

If a Prince of Malfeas can't take a Devil's Bargain, who can?
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Nobody, because devils other than ours earned their reputation.


Yog said:
We don't actually need to use it. Having it bound for a century and a day gets it out of circulation, as it was, allows us to study it, and in principles allows us to keep talking to it. A century of exalted grade socialization? We might redeem it yet.

Mainly, I want it bound so it cannot cause trouble elsewhere, and to study it.
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I'm not sure about that. Exalted socials are amazing, but remember that DF spirits of all kinds are rigid in a lot of weird ways. In some respects they can be convinced of things, but in others trying to argue them around is like trying to reprogram a mechanical watch.

Tiffany was an exception because she was bound to a mortal soul and had to agree to be changed in order to be allowed to change him.

This is an aside, but I also think the language of your stunt could use a little changing:

Yog said:
, I shall name you, of what happens to those of your kind who oppose such as I
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Remind or something instead of name, currently this sentence doesn't make sense.
 
[X] Let the wizards speak... they look like they are about to 'speak' evocations

[X] Ask the wizards to prevent the Demon from escaping back to whatever Hell spawned it for as long as they are able, then kill it.
 
It wouldn't be out of character to make this specific deal as DP directly states and as indicated by Molly's description of the Hollow man before but I don't like the optics of being a Hell Queen making a deal with a literal demon right in front of these guys.

It'd be different if it was of the Five Courts.

[X] Let the wizards speak... they look like they are about to 'speak' evocations
 
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DragonParadox said:
Of Stone and Bone
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COMMENTARY
After all the fucking effort to keep it secret *sigh*
Remember how wizards are nosey as shit?
Y'all better start putting together a plausible explanation for the names we just spilled over the PA to all and sundry.

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Tiffany is cursing at a botched summoning.
Given as she has some of the best senses here as well as the most complete rolodex of the legions of Hell? Thats a bad sign.
A very bad sign.

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Remember when I said every wizard has the equivalent of a suicide vest?

Witness one of the reasons why I said it was a bad idea to give your enemies warning when we werent there on the scene to prevent them escalating. Because desperate wizards tend to do shit like this, with a blast radius that encompasses everyone around them.

Botched summonings can kill the perpetrator, but even they remain a danger to everyone around.
If there hadnt been overwhelming force in this location, with two Senior Council members and Molly right here, this demon would have happily attacked all these baby wizards and eaten everyone it could find.

And this is a big daddy demon.
Given as Chaunzaggaroth was probably a Tempter? If I had to guess, we're looking at either a Minor Lord, or a Lord of Hell. Maybe even a Duke, though I kinda doubt that.
Sorcerer's Crusade p118 said:
Not even Infernalists agree about the ranks
of Hell's minions. By even the most conservative
Christian estimates, the Darkness shelters over half
a million Fallen angels, ranging from crude fiends
to the arch-enemy of God. For simplicity, assume
that demonic creatures fall into the following rough
classifications:
• The Absolute (who may be God, Satan, or
greater than either)
• The Primal Emanations (which may include
Gaia, the Wyrm and the Wyld)
• The Deep Lords of Misrule
• The Gods of this World (possibly including
Lucifer and Jehovah?)
• Arch-dukes and Dukes (also Urge-Wyrms)
• Lords (also totem avatars of evil werewolves)
• Minor Lords (also greater Banes and Spectres)
• Tempters (sometimes classified as greater
servitors)
• Servitors (also elementals, djinn and most
Banes)
War-demons (also many Spectres)
Servelings
Infernal Hosts
Human cultists​

For specifically medieval demonological ranks
and distinctions, see the Dark Ages Companion,
Chapter Seven. Be aware, though, that these clas-
sifications are by no means universal, even among
scholars of Christian demonology. By the Renais-
sance, many occult scholars have assembled new
hierarchies, or discarded them altogether.
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Something like this showing up by surprise would have eaten everyone in the War Room not a Senior Council member.


And its not like this is gated by power; demon summoning is something literally every wizard can do.
Harry did it back in Book 2, and he was a baby wizard getting bullied by street thugs.
Fuck, Victor fucking Sells did it in Storm Front, and he was a goddamn scrub of a sorcerer.

Madge summoned a fucking Walker in Blood Rites, and she wasnt even a wizard, just a lesser sorceress with a blood sacrifice.
The Hidden Halls are a major leyline nexus; you wont even need the blood sacrifice.

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Also note that this dude intentionally outed Tiffany here as the daughter of a Fallen Angel.
Because demons are dicks who will hurt you if they can get away with it.
It also does confirm that Hell is very aware of everything thats happened since Molly gave her a body.


I think its safe to assume that a demon that recognizes Molly's origins has a good idea about what she can do. Including the Crown. It might not be allowed to share that information with mortals, though.
It certainly wont give it away for free.

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Im guessing the Hollow Man has outstanding debts. Assholes like that usually do, and I think a demon has to have a claim on a soul to have a chance of taking it with them.

Nevertheless, Im very much against doing deals with demons on the fly.
Demons are not your friends, and are invariably portrayed as malevolent. Demons explicitly do deals primarily in order to lure you further into their power, as Dresden will tell you. Even when they are polite and courteous, they are just biding their time.

Smart people do not cut deals with demons unless absolutely necessary. And this isnt necessary.


And IC, Molly is a Catholic girl who still goes to confession, whose father is a Knight of the Cross and has had a sitdown with the Archangel Uriel in her family home. It is very OOC to suggest that she'd do a deal to trade someone else's soul, or whats left of it, for her own advantage. Her every Intimacy pushes against this.
DragonParadox said:
DPE does not apply.
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Oh dear. Is that a Duke?
*checks DPE*
Thats a Duke. A Duke of Hell. Maybe even an Arch-Duke.
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Thats.....bad. Very bad.
I wonder if we can just politely decline and if he'll go away. Because if he throws down here a lot of people are gonna die and we might be one of them.
 
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