Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

Revlid said:

Okay, I'll happily argue the toss on questions of responsibility, but we see Rin's thought process in going to Kirei laid out very clearly in the "Rin's Deal" sidestory. BB might have suggested Rin ask Kirei for lodging (as opposed to sanctuary), but her own logic for doing so was fully coherent and internal. It was her decision to go to Kirei, and entirely her decision to dunk Saber into the Grail Mud for a power-up, and to unleash the destruction and death that followed.

Rin was motivated by fear, mistrust, panic, and a desire not to lose the Grail War that she regards as her family's birthright. These are understandable motives, which drove her to do some frankly unforgiveable things. Please don't try to brush that under the rug by exaggerating to the point of claiming she was mind controlled into doing all of it. She wasn't. BB might have laid out the red carpet, but Rin power walked down that slippery slope of her own volition.

The fact that she's now crying about it doesn't change that! Or the fact that our sister is literally dangling on the end of a noose right now, with our Servants under an executioner's blade, and I am not about to choose the life of someone we came here prepared to kill for the shit she did (and has still done!) over them.

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Yeah but we're playing Shiro not fucking Terminator. She did do those things she does deserve to be punished I just have a real difficulty in swallowing it yeah. you think I'm trying to downplay it but I'm not but BB literally says that she was in her fucking dreams manipulating her to go to the church

Erien said:

"BB," the Sakura-look-alike replies. "Or your phone… oh, what did you call it? Ah yes. 'Artificial Assistant' was what you called me. You were much too stupid to realize you were talking to a servant I suppose."

Rin recoils, taking several steps back. "You were…"

"Yes." BB replies, teleporting behind Rin and leaning close to her ear.

Rin yelps and leaps forward, spinning around to face the grinning BB.

"You asked me so many questions when you found I could respond, but you never questioned that. Too stupid to realize that little niggling voice suggesting you seek the aid of that Church NPC wasn't your own in your dreams, too stupid to realize that Shirou hasn't been hunting you." BB laughs, and she laughs hard and ugly, hands wrapping around her stomach as pure joy erupts from her. "You thought I was some form of 'assistant'! You're stupid in every universe."

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it's fucking too much for me to like say yeah we should kill Rin right now despite the fact she's not actually responsible for BB and not actually planning on fighting us.

Shiro does cold blooded murder two times that I'm aware of one is goodbye Shinji who by the way committed a far greater crimes and was in the process of committing those crimes and he gave him a chance to stop and the other is killing Sakura who is so broken that she doesn't even fight back.

This also doesn't get past the smell test of the fact that BB is a fucking asshole who is very obviously a fucking liar. Just another bully who breaks her toys when she gets done with them. And she wants us to kill someone for her amusement she can fuck off.

Erien said:

Sorry if I made voting difficult for this one.

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Don't apologize. It's supposed to be tough.

Always Late said:

According to BB. Who intentionally set Rin up with the priest who backstabbed her father and manipulated Rin ever since the last Grail War. The priest who controls the Greater Grail and its Grail Mud.

There is such a thing as "unreliable narrator".

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...no, Rin tells us that.

Erien said:

"So that attack on the edge of town was just how you say hello then? An innocent person died Rin."

"You think I wanted to!? I was trying to deal with your servant, and it's your servant that destroyed my house!" Rin screeches. "I can't help people getting in the way of all this!"

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People are mispresenting Rin as being far more ignorant, innocent, and remorseful in this than she actually is.

Rin sent the mind-broken Saber after us knowing that it would endanger people, and when we tell her that someone died as a result she responds by yelling that it's all collateral damage, it's not her fault they got in the way, it's our fault anyway for being so threatening.

Is she firmly entrenched in the denial, anger, and bargaining stages of how badly and repeatedly she's fucked up? Yes. Has she said or done literally anything to express remorse or try to make up for her actions? No, she's still very intent on glossing over all this and justifying herself with victory.

Revlid said:

...no, Rin tells us that.

People are mispresenting Rin as being far more ignorant, innocent, and remorseful in this than she actually is.

Rin sent the mind-broken Saber after us knowing that it would endanger people, and when we tell her that someone died as a result she responds by yelling that it's all collateral damage, it's not her fault they got in the way, it's our fault anyway for being so threatening.

Is she firmly entrenched in the denial, anger, and bargaining stages of how badly and repeatedly she's fucked up? Yes. Has she said or done literally anything to express remorse or try to make up for her actions? No, she's still very intent on glossing over all this and justifying herself with victory.

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You know we did by proxy blow up her house before that happened, right. Destroying hundreds of years of her family's history and any magical resources she independently possessed and for some reason she might think we were hunting her and partially puts the death of Innocence at our feet as well because holy shit a Servant blew up her fucking house and it was our Servant. Thanks Mordred you're hilarious.

Revlid said:

...no, Rin tells us that.

People are mispresenting Rin as being far more ignorant, innocent, and remorseful in this than she actually is.

Rin sent the mind-broken Saber after us knowing that it would endanger people, and when we tell her that someone died as a result she responds by yelling that it's all collateral damage, it's not her fault they got in the way, it's our fault anyway for being so threatening.

Is she firmly entrenched in the denial, anger, and bargaining stages of how badly and repeatedly she's fucked up? Yes. Has she said or done literally anything to express remorse or try to make up for her actions? No, she's still very intent on glossing over all this and justifying herself with victory.

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I mean, Rin apparently thought Shirou was trying to kill her here; she was wrong, but having your ancestral home obliterated, knowing the one who did it has multiple Servants, and her Magus "support" network being BB (who she didn't realize is a person and is actively working to make her miserable) and the Fake Priest (who's doing the same, pretty much just for lols) doesn't tend to leave a person with a clear head.

Degorium said:

This also doesn't get past the smell test of the fact that BB is a fucking asshole who is very obviously a fucking liar. Just another bully who breaks her toys when she gets done with them. And she wants us to kill someone for her amusement she can fuck off.

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BB adhering to the rules of her own "games" is actually a pretty consistent character trait, as far as I recall from CCC (and her GO events). She's a rampant AI who got to change the rules of her "world", so she respects the rules she established as a point of pride.

I'm less concerned with BB breaking her word in this specific instance, and more concerned with finding out why she's now regarding Ritsuka with such disgust, or her "real" motives for everything. This kind of petty psychological torment, with no greater motive than sadism, honestly feels a bit out of character for her. Kazuradrop might do it, sure, but why would she even care in the first place?

Degorium said:

You know we did by proxy blow up her house before that happened, right. Destroying hundreds of years of her family's history and any magical resources she independently possessed and for some reason she might think we were hunting her and partially puts the death of Innocence at our feet as well because holy shit a Servant blew up her fucking house and it was our Servant. Thanks Mordred you're hilarious.

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A: "Rin didn't do bad things, she was mind controlled!"

B: "Rin did do bad things, and she wasn't mind controlled."

A: "Yeah, well, she was very upset when she did bad things."

Come on, man.

Revlid said:

BB adhering to the rules of her own "games" is actually a pretty consistent character trait, as far as I recall from CCC (and her GO events). She's a rampant AI who got to change the rules of her "world", so she respects the rules she established as a point of pride.

I'm less concerned with BB breaking her word in this specific instance, and more concerned with finding out why she's now regarding Ritsuka with such disgust, or her "real" motives for all this - this kind of petty, sadistic psychological torment honestly feels a bit out of character for her. Kazuradrop might do it, or Meltlilith, but why would they even care?


A: "Rin didn't do bad things, she was mind controlled!"

B: "Rin did do bad things, and she wasn't mind controlled."

A: "Yeah, well, she was very upset when she did bad things."

Come on, man.

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Come on man what the fuck do you want me to say. There are various easily visible extenuating circumstances what the fuck do you want me to say that we should just listen to this rampant AI asshole and just hope for the best. It comes down to the fact I don't believe that Shirou would kill her in this situation or should. I've given my reasons Rin is very obviously being pulled around by shit that we can only partially see in character and what we already see is horrific.

Never did I say that she didn't get those people killed that through her negligence multiple people ended up dead I never said that I said that there are extenuating circumstances and Shirou has overlooked more than that in Canon from less obviously remorseful people.

None of those reasons are fucking contradictory they just Compound on each other. The only thing you've given me for why we should kill her is that a rampant AI asshole has gotten bored with her and she has a hostage with no guarantees that will get the hostage back at the end. I trust BB about as far as I can throw Moon cell.

[X] Command seal to summon Mordred
-[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are

[X] [Kill Rin]

I really don't have anything else to say about this that hasn't been said before. I'm judt going to vote this and see what happens.

[X] [Kill Rin]
I vote for this not because I like it, but because I think that this is the only option proposed so far that has a chance of doing anything other than getting us killed again.

[] Grab Ruby and command it mentally to put you into the the most audacious costume possible. use BB's momentary distraction and shock to grab Taiga. summon Mordred with a command seal and use your temporary powers of flight to snag Rin and Ayako and put a good dozen yards between you and the fighting servants, trusting fujimaru to get herself clear.

it's fan service, so it has to work.

Locking in 24. Thank you all for reading up to this point!

Degorium said:

Come on man what the fuck do you want me to say.

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I wanted you to be honest, instead of making up nonsense about Rin being mind controlled or crying for forgiveness. You don't feel good about pulling the trigger on Rin under these circumstances, and that's fine, but you can just say that instead of spreading misinformation online to try to persuade people.

It's what I find annoying about the BB thing, too. You say she'll probably kill Taiga anyway, I point out that she's not known for breaking the rules to her own "games", and instead of finding a counterexample, you just repeat that she's evil and will probably kill Taiga anyway. What evidence do you have for that?

And as far as "I don't think Shirou would do this in the VN" goes, yes, he absolutely would. When Caster takes Taiga hostage in the UBW route, he clearly states in his inner monologue that he'll kill Rin if she endangers his sister - and that's when the two of them are dating, as opposed to being locked in a death battle where Rin has already pressed all of his buttons. Your take is simply incorrect.

Degorium said:

The only thing you've given me for why we should kill her is that a rampant AI asshole has gotten bored with her and she has a hostage with no guarantees that will get the hostage back at the end. I trust BB about as far as I can throw Moon cell.

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I think I've been pretty clear with my reasons, but I'll lay them out again.

1. I value Taiga's life more highly than Rin's, and so does Shirou. I absolutely 100% refuse to actively gamble our sister's life on the off-chance that we might be able to pull an inexplicable miracle and save both her and a deeply unpleasant person who we frankly barely know except through Ayako.
2. I also value Circe and Medea's lives far more than Rin's, both individually and as a collective, and at this point so should Shirou. Saber Alter is a horrendously lethal opponent for our witches, but is also a total mana-hog, so killing Rin should remove her from the board extremely quickly, and save them both from being murdered. This is the only way we can help either of them right now.
3. Rin has done more than enough bad shit to warrant being taken out, and we came here fully prepared to do that. Nothing we've learned since then has actually changed the shit she's done, just made her reasons for doing so more obviously desperate.
4. I actually do genuinely expect BB to hold up her end of this bargain, even if her game isn't "done" after this. It would be even more out of character for her to simply kill Taiga after we killed (or tried to kill) Rin, in my view, and no-one's convinced me otherwise.
5. Last time we tried to fight BB, we were totally ineffectual and achieved absolutely nothing. Nothing has changed this time, and the write-in plan is obnoxiously optimistic. BB has all the cards here, and I don't have any idea what we're expecting to get out of asking Fujimaru "what her weaknesses are" like we're lining up elemental materia in FFVII. That was something to ask before showing up here without a plan.
6. This frankly feels like the arc this Shirou's been following for a while now, especially since killing Shinji. The conversations with Ayako and Raiga lose all of their bite if he swivels 180-degrees and gets Taiga killed out of a sudden unwillingness to Do Unto Magi As They Do Unto Civilians. Killing someone the audience actually finds sympathetic (or at least, attractive) is a tragic step, but it feels like the right one for this story.
7. If this was Shinji and he'd done the exact same shit for the exact same reason, y'all would be voting "Bye, Shinji" in a landslide. I know this, you know this, let's not pretend otherwise.

And lastly, this cast is getting too fucking big already, and even in the most ludicrous best case scenario where everyone lives I am not going to stand for dedicating even more update space on, I dunno, talking Raiga out of killing Rin, talking Rin out of being a bitch, etc. That's space which could be spent on Medea instead.

Revlid said:

And lastly, this cast is getting too fucking big already, and even in the most ludicrous best case scenario where everyone lives I am not going to stand for dedicating even more update space on, I dunno, talking Raiga out of killing Rin, talking Rin out of being a bitch, etc. That's space which could be spent on Medea instead.

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Hey now. I'm doing my best with this.

[X] [Kill Rin]
I'm just here to watch things go off the rails, honestly. Also this feels like the kind of thing that trips one of Sakura's "bad end flags" and that's...not desirable, per se, but interesting nontheless.

The difference between Rin and shinji, is the choice.

BB here is saying that we have the choice of choosing to/not to kill rin, knowing that we care far more about taiga than we do do about Rin.

It's not really much of a choice when your hostage taker has your loved one with a knife to the throat

Plus, shinji was a dick to the end. Considering how rin is now, I don't think killing her would be the greatest to our mental health.

And taiga wouldn't be all that jazzed, since BB seems the type to announce to taiga that we killed a kid to save her life

Revlid said:

I think I've been pretty clear with my reasons, but I'll lay them out again.

1. I value Taiga's life more highly than Rin's, and so does Shirou. I absolutely 100% refuse to actively gamble our sister's life on the off-chance that we might be able to pull an inexplicable miracle and save both her and a deeply unpleasant person who we frankly barely know except through Ayako.
2. I also value Circe and Medea's lives far more than Rin's, both individually and as a collective, and at this point so should Shirou. Saber Alter is a horrendously lethal opponent for our witches, but is also a total mana-hog, so killing Rin should remove her from the board extremely quickly, and save them both from being murdered. This is the only way we can help either of them right now.
3. Rin has done more than enough bad shit to warrant being taken out, and we came here fully prepared to do that. Nothing we've learned since then has actually changed the shit she's done, just made her reasons for doing so more obviously desperate.
4. I actually do genuinely expect BB to hold up her end of this bargain, even if her game isn't "done" after this. It would be even more out of character for her to simply kill Taiga after we killed (or tried to kill) Rin, in my view, and no-one's convinced me otherwise.
5. Last time we tried to fight BB, we were totally ineffectual and achieved absolutely nothing. Nothing has changed this time, and the write-in plan is obnoxiously optimistic. BB has all the cards here, and I don't have any idea what we're expecting to get out of asking Fujimaru "what her weaknesses are" like we're lining up elemental materia in FFVII. That was something to ask before showing up here without a plan.
6. This frankly feels like the arc this Shirou's been following for a while now, especially since killing Shinji. The conversations with Ayako and Raiga lose all of their bite if he swivels 180-degrees and gets Taiga killed out of a sudden unwillingness to Do Unto Magi As They Do Unto Civilians. Killing someone the audience actually finds sympathetic (or at least, attractive) is a tragic step, but it feels like the right one for this story.
7. If this was Shinji and he'd done the exact same shit for the exact same reason, y'all would be voting "Bye, Shinji" in a landslide. I know this, you know this, let's not pretend otherwise.

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Erien said:

This war, these people.

They are toys.

A broken doll, a shattered mirror looking offering a reflection that isn't there, and a burned toy soldier attempting to save the day. How very…

Pitiful.

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A bully who breaks her toys when she's done with them I don't know what game that you're expecting her to be playing but I expect that she's playing I play with you until I get bored then I break you apart which it very much seems like it's been alluded to.

1. To be honest I completely agree I just don't think killing Rin is the right move to save Taiga
2. Saber will not disappear instantly and will keep fighting until she does disappear and if she doesn't use Excalibur Morgan that can be anywhere from a couple of minutes to a couple of hours not to mention there are people that could be her master or could take her up on being her master nearby.
3. No she hasn't I'm sorry she does deserve to be punished but extenuating circumstances do exist and we both out of character and in character know them to ignore them feels unjust for no reason and from my perspective a very real lack of benefit to appease a psycho bully for no reason.
4. I don't we're not playing a game she's giving us commands and jerking us around by having a hostage and I don't expect her to change that position as long as it amuses her to be in it. And when it no longer amuses her I expect her to attempt to kill us either via fake priest or her own hand.
5. You mean the last time we tried to fight her without a servant present yeah I imagine a human who isn't ready for Magical combat not going to do great against a servant deity.
6. Okay that is completely fair enough but I also think it kind of takes all of the bite out of talking about do unto Magus as magus does then not meeting someone who is obviously separated themselves from both remorse and concern for normal people like say an actual magus. It feels completely out of character and kind of shit to kill someone without a fight. At the behest of an obvious super villain.
7. If this was Shinji okay this hypothetical you're putting forward doesn't really work because if it was Shinji in this situation it would just be not Shinji Shinji only ends up in the by Shinji situation because he is unabashedly an asshole who is not remorseful and so arrogant as to just believe he's immune from the consequences of having someone who is telling him to fucking stop on top of him about to stop his neck. If it was Shinji in this situation and it's the same situation I would still be arguing for leniency because that means it's a Shinji who 1) isn't actively in the process of murdering people. 2) is not actively abating a kidnapping of a loved one) and 3) this is a big one not attempting to fight back.
7-1. Again it does not matter that Rin is a girl the fact that there is textual evidence that has been presented of remorse there are deep extenuating circumstances and the fact that I just do not trust obviously super villain BB means I'm not going to be in favor of callous murder.

Erien said:

"Tohsaka Rin~," BB says. "Correct, and a hundred points to you. I came here as I only wished to meet Sakura. But Rin, silly little Rin feels so bad about her part in all of this, oh she stays up every night crying." BB moves a fist to the corner of her eye, twisting it to mimic wiping away a tear. "So, I thought I would complete two goals at once, aren't I kind?"

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There is nothing I've seen from obviously fucking evil shit head BB that wouldn't make fun of a teenage girl for crying for accidentally having killed people nothing at all she's a sadistic fucking bully and guess what she's not going to give a shit she deserves a fucking sword at the fucking forehead is what she deserves.

Revlid said:

I also value Circe and Medea's lives far more than Rin's, both individually and as a collective, and at this point so should Shirou. Saber Alter is a horrendously lethal opponent for our witches, but is also a total mana-hog, so killing Rin should remove her from the board extremely quickly, and save them both from being murdered. This is the only way we can help either of them right now.

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The Saber bit is what has my concern. As you've pointed out, this doesn't quite feel like a thing BB would do. It is, however, a great way for someone to eliminate Rin and take direct control of Saber, who at the moment is down for basically anything. Short term, killing Rin probably does get us out of this situation. Long term, this probably goes a long way to helping Dark Lord Sauron complete his plans, and that's probably worse then death.

As a side, I've also realized that Assassin has also disappeared. It could just be BB is also holding her hostage... but maybe that's a hint. Something about this situation isn't adding up.

Alright, I'll bite. Probably not going to change burning a seal on Mordred at this point since it looks like votes are skewing towards it, but what the hell

[X]Kill Rin
[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are

Erien said:

Hey now. I'm doing my best with this.

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To be clear, I'm (mostly...) joking, and it's not meant as a criticism of your writing. A lot of good stuff in this story is, regrettably, also space that could be spent on Medea. And if I have to go room to room with a scythe in the Emiya household just to score Medea a moment more screentime, well, them's the breaks...

• Shirou: "This has gone far enough, Ayako."
• Ayako: "She's sorry now, just... leave her alone!"
• Shirou: "I can't do that! She's taken too much screentime from Medea. You both have..."
• Ayako: "It doesn't have to be this way!"
• Shirou: "I have no choice! The cast has expanded! Group scenes aren't enough anymore."
• Ayako: "But killing off canon love interests?!"
• Shirou: "I'll kill off a thousand love interests before I let Medea lose! And I'll silence anyone who gets in my way!"

[X] Command seal to summon Mordred
-[X] Ask Fujimaru what BB's weaknesses are

[X] Look up at BB then look back to Rin walk up to Rin and lean to her ear.
-[X] Tell Rin to use her Command seals to get BB to return Taiga from she took her from whole and unharmed.

[X] [Refuse]

I really don't see how the other write-in works. She didn't even know BB was a Servant, much less how to operate a phone, so what kind of weaknesses would she know about? What she has declared is she is a servant of Rin's, and therefore she should have at least one seal we can work with.

And the other is just plain because I don't trust her to keep her word if we kill Rin. I'm not against it if push comes to shove, but I don't want us to kill someone just for this digibitch to move the goal posts. Especially since that'd leave us with a very angry Saber deciding to just swing for the fences out of spite.