Yeah I will say giving the Velaryons a double match of Laena and Laenor(get more creative with ur names corlys and rhaenys) but im very down for marrying Laenor, im not ll too cocerned about having a loveless marriage, Laenor's very chill about the whole ting, comes with an alliance and if w yaknow, dont murder Laenor we've got the velaryons firmly on board. the issue with fertility seems to be a mostly, they stopped trying type of issue and not a biological thing, id also find it weird if laenor being infertile was just something added randomly? ad while its not love, Laenor and Rhaenyra didn't seem to dislike each other before Criston killed the fuck out of Joffrey. its a compromise sure but it nets us the Velaryons, gives us the go-ahead to look for someone we're actually into w/o marriage pressure.the biggest issue i could see is Alicent misliking adultery, which would suck but we can always hit up that Vypren lady. actually, I want to hit up the vypren lady no matter what she seems like she rules.
[X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise
 
I'm personally against any commitment to marry Laenor until we at least get to meet him and get a feel for whether he he'll be willing to have children with us or not. No children, or bastards like in canon, mean we'll be hit with a legitimacy crisis, and in the case of the former, no new dragon riders to defend our line. No Silverwing, Dreamfyre, Vermithor etc,etc. It's an important enough issue that it's worth at least waiting enough time for us to meet him to see how much of an issue this is going to be before committing IMO. What are we going to do if after we marry he just leaves to live somewhere else and decides to just never consumate our marriage?
 
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To marry Laenor you have to have a conversation like: "Listen Laenor, I know you don't like women, let's get out of each other's way and do what we want on one condition: I need at least two children(a Heir and a Spare) with your blood to guarantee my lineage, if necessary get drunk but I need this to accept marrying you", let's avoid the bastards this time.
 
I see two viable paths here. The key is that the Velaryons control too many dragons. Without Daemon we must have them as allies. That means either we marry Laenor, or our father marries Laena. Viserys marrying Laena option is very similar to the Plan Not Great Not Terrible, but with more optimized selections.

[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
-[X] Matters of Law and Coin
-[X] Try to convince him to support a marriage alliance with the Velaryons, but delayed. We need their dragons as a hedge against Daemon. Considering Laena's age, a betrothal while delaying the actual marriage for four years is reasonable. It will give your father time to grieve, and it will ensure that you will be 19 years older than any siblings, allowing you to marry your children to them if Laena has children, avoiding any future dynastic conflicts.
-[X] Agree to support their efforts in exchange for favors (Select as many as you want but they will likely refuse if too much is demanded)
--[X] They agree to delay any marriage for four years. This is far safer for Laena than trying to have children too young. It also allows Viserys time to grieve, making him more likely to agree.
--[X] They agree to support your inheritance to the throne, and you agree to wed your heir to a child of either Laena or Laenor's. (If you have no children, of course you will name a sibling heir).
--[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council

[X] Plan: Political Marriage is our Duty
-[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[X] Try to convince him to help delay your father's decision on who he should marry.
-[X] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
--[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council


The first plan leverages our primary emotional connection we made with Otto. It's too soon, let a man grieve. While recognizing that we need the Velaryon dragons. While at the same time presenting a plan to avoid future dynastic disputes. As 19 years older we will functionally be a full generation ahead of any siblings, and can arrange matches as needed. Taking such an approach means we have much less need for diplomacy, and we can instead look at things like Stewardship, improving our chances for a Small Council seat.

I like it much better than the current version, which does not delay the marriage, and as such I think greatly endangers our inheritance. Being 19 years ahead of any children will make a huge difference, and already suggesting a marriage alliance of our children means that the Velaryons will be fully on board as our supporters. I think the current plan is too naive about what will happen if Laena marries young and produces a son. In that case it's the Velaryons that will become our enemy, Blues vs Blacks, and unless we marry Daemon (or Laenor) it means we will be the one with the disadvantage in dragons. Far worse than the one that the Greens faced in canon.

The second is a much more straightforward action. We gain our fathers support by accepting the duty instead of him. It means we will still need to take action in the future about our father's marriage, but it secures the Valeryon dragons behind our inheritance. Yes we end up with stress, but that's the cost of being an heir.

I suppose there is also the third option:

[X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties
-[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
--[X] If your father is going to marry for the good of the realm, then it should bring the realm something: Propose Deria Martell as a match.
-[X] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
--[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council


This would be going for the full option to make sure there are no threats to our inheritance. Dance is cancelled, and we can focus on the rest of our interests. While accepting that our father must remarry sooner rather than later, at least Deria Martell will require a long time to negotiate, giving father at least more time than he has now. (Plus it also means no threat to our inheritance, and opens the door to securing the Stepstones permanently, and perhaps eventually folding Dorne into the realm).

EDIT: I guess this plan is close to the third one of mine, so I'll approval vote it for now:

EDIT2: Since my plan caught up in votes, no longer any reason to approval vote.
 
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-[X] Try to convince him to support a marriage alliance with the Velaryons, but delayed. We need their dragons as a hedge against Daemon. Considering Laena's age, delaying the actual marriage for four years is reasonable. It will give your father time to grieve, and it will ensure that you will be 20 years older than any siblings, allowing you to marry your children to them if Laena has children. Avoiding any future dynastic conflicts.
I like your plan, but I would like to point out that Nyra is still 14, so we could technically have half siblings which could be 19 years of junior instead of 20...

[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
 
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I like your plan, but I would like to point out that Nyra is still 14, so we could technically have half siblings which could be 19 years of junior instead of 20...

I thought I saw a reference last turn to us being 16. But even so that just increases the importance of delaying the marriage so that we don't have to start having kids at 16 to stay within marrying range.

EDIT: Information sheet still says 14, so I'll fix that.
 
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oh i much prefer that plan. it pushes i bck andlets us explore marrying for love ad pursuing our romantic interests while putting the Velaryons reasonably in our camp changing my vote
[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
 
[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings

Does give us an advantage of age plus ability to marry children closer as necessary to help secure the dynasty.
 
A betrothal is not easily broken, not even by a King. Especially if the bride is the rider of Vhagar.

This is sort of true, but then again the King is the ultimate arbiter and he can override it, even if it would be a huge scandal. And you're underestimating Vizzy's sheer potential to fuck things up because he thinks it'll make more people happy. This is how Otto played him like a violin in canon, and I can see some Lannister or Baratheon doing something similar. They'll convince Vizzy to break the betrothal in favor of one of their own daughters, but it'll be "fine" because he'll promise to marry one of sons with his new wife off to Laena instead. It goes without saying that that would absolutely not be fine.
 
[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings

[X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties

[X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise

[X] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible

[X] Plan Commit To Your Choices

I think having an actual contract is still useful since having "if then" on a piece of paper tends to work better than working it in a vow, having it as precedent for a decade plus creates inertia (paper and laws can be referenced, oaths less so) and spreadable. Also for all the general reasons why most civilizations switched from pure oral record keeping to writing stuff down. Like Westeros hardly has universal literacy but come on, I'm pretty sure the legal code is something written vs individual spoken oaths.
 
Like Westeros hardly has universal literacy but come on, I'm pretty sure the legal code is something written vs individual spoken oaths.
Pretty sure Westeros works on customary, common, and chancery law, with only some judgments being recorded and these buttressing custom rather than acting as a civil law code.
 
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Going to endorse the whole new slate of plans too.

[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
[X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties
[X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise
[X] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible
[X] Plan Commit To Your Choices
 
[X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties
[X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise

Approval voting for "Political Marriage is Both our Duties"
 
We are kinda having a massive issue with vote-splitting.

Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Aug 12, 2024 at 6:24 PM, finished with 176 posts and 41 votes.

  • [X] Plan The Conciliator
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
    -[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil
    [X] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince Otto that the match is advantageous, given that Daemon has been all but committing treason already, and that you need to focus on checking the Sea Snakes power more directly. Promise Otto to support his cause, once you sit on the Small Council.
    -[X] Agree to support their efforts in exchange for favors (Select as many as you want but they will likely refuse if too much is demanded)
    --[X] Set up a treaty concerning the succession, clearly stating that you are the heiress to the Iron Throne ahead of all children from a second marriage, and those in turn are ahead of Daemon and any other claimants.
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan Commit To Your Choices
    -[X] Matters of Law and Coin
    -[X] Otto: Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride.
    -[X] Corlys: [Defiant] None, instead decry both of them for using their daughter in such an abhorrent manner. They are her parents, they should not be selling her like a piece of meat.
    [X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
    -[X] Matters of Law and Coin
    -[X] Try to convince him to support a marriage alliance with the Velaryons, but delayed. We need their dragons as a hedge against Daemon. Considering Laena's age, a betrothal while delaying the actual marriage for four years is reasonable. It will give your father time to grieve, and it will ensure that you will be 19 years older than any siblings, allowing you to marry your children to them if Laena has children, avoiding any future dynastic conflicts.
    -[X] Agree to support their efforts in exchange for favors (Select as many as you want but they will likely refuse if too much is demanded)
    --[X] They agree to delay any marriage for four years. This is far safer for Laena than trying to have children too young. It also allows Viserys time to grieve, making him more likely to agree.
    --[X] They agree to support your inheritance to the throne, and you agree to wed your heir to a child of either Laena or Laenor's. (If you have no children, of course you will name a sibling heir).
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Write-In: Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose Johanna Westerling, Sabitha Vypren, or Deria Martell.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    [X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
    --[X] If your father is going to marry for the good of the realm, then it should bring the realm something: Propose Deria Martell as a match.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan Chaos is a Ladder
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    [X] Plan Take Your Time
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help delay your father's decision on who he should marry.
    -[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil
    [X] Plan Continuing To Ruin Alicent's Life
    -[X] The Seven Pointed Star (Improves Relationship with Alicent)
    -[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
    -[X] [Defiant] None, instead decry both of them for using their daughter in such an abhorrent manner. They are her parents, they should not be selling her like a piece of meat.
    [X] Plan: Political Marriage is our Duty
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help delay your father's decision on who he should marry.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
 
We are kinda having a massive issue with vote-splitting.
TBH, the thing is that Elder Haman's plan came up just a couple of hours ago, and many of the people who voted for the first batch of plans are probably offline...

Seeing the progression that we got in these last few hours, I am guessing that a lot of the people who voted for [] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible would either switch votes or add them as approval votes, especially since [] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings is (no offense) an improved version of your original plan
 
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