Even that doesn't work, though? The existence of pigeons and lack of mental corruption from breaking the laws doesn't necessitate Council to change their policies at all. Yes, it puts political pressure on them from their members who want to kill less people, and from wardens who want to be able to use lethal magic, but they don't need to change anything in how they operate. We aren't passing any moral judgment, or forcing any changes.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
It doesn't seem like they're going to get less occupied any time soon, now or in canon. It also remains to be seen if they can feasibly keep a system like this afloat with lower stakes spirit commerce.
Especially because the explosion's consequences are being felt already. By the time they're free again things could be hopelessly out of control.
I think it's an emotional reaction to the apparent removal of consequences; the same way people will accuse politicians for being soft on crime if they propose a policy that's legitimately better at decreasing criminal activity but that doesn't overtly punish the criminals doing it as harshly.
Black magic is evil and doing it makes you an evil person. Reality currently confirms this belief to them by literally imposing it.
Getting away "for free" could easily feel like unpunished sin to them. Doesn't help that it brings to mind the unfortunate human face of their warlock problem. It's much more comforting for people who violate your beliefs to be evil monsters than it is for them to be people.
People are getting into cars without realizing that traffic law even exists as a concept or that people might live near the roads. How many people who know better will be tempted to sin a little who wouldn't otherwise do so? If it isn't a larger number than the first group than this is an upgrade.
The laws are not a deterrent to a vast majority of new warlocks because they don't know what they are and won't learn till after they've broken them.
If someone really does want to hunt down rules free lawbreaking for some reason the pigeons are the perfect trap too, like if someone shows up to a hardware store and starts buying hundreds of pounds of fertilizer.
As long as we don't do something stupid like just letting them fly off to do whatever involvement with the birds would make people detectable to us.
That might even be a good argument for the council. Good little sorcerers use them for harmless stuff and warlocks looking to start a spree have to come out where we can see them to get one.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Untraining a centuries old ick/kill response is likely to be difficult. People tend to be bad at changing their minds in response to new information.
Why Is It That Even Proven Facts Can't Change Some People's Minds?
Explore why facts alone may not be enough to change someone's mind and gain insights into the psychology behind it.
www.discovermagazine.com
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Do you have any suggestion of how to word this position into an argument to be made IC? Because I think I want to add this IC. Start with emotional push, I like what I wrote, but then pivot to the actual argument of how mental corruption being prevented doesn't actually make it easier to violate the Laws or changes anything in White Council's policies that they themselves don't agree to change?
Agreed, but Doom of Damocles already exists, we see it used in canon. It's as much a traditional cornerstone as anything else.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
I'm aware that it's value also extends to such things. You don't need to be a potential wizard to make deals with demons and the like yes. The fact that it has other uses doesn't detract from my point though.
If the Masquerade falls the workload increases exponentially. The way they currently handle potential magic users and those who might abuse it will no longer be applicable with their numbers and methods.
With things as they are I expect the WC death rate to increase after the Masquerade falls and they increase global policing actions on humans who abuse magic. Then I expect their enemies to take note and for human magic organizations who aren't White Council friendly to spring up in greater number. The WC has a huge advantage and have undoubtedly handled such things over the years but it would be much worse now and their workload is already vast.
I could see them getting overwhelmed.
In a scenario where the Masquerade falls. I doubt that such a thing alone would "cover most of this". I'd be one step to take.
Honestly, I really don't see this efficiently stemming the tide of humans who would misuse magic. I think there would have to be a lot more than this due to the population boom and the fact that the WC will always be contested and occupied by enemies. If they aren't doing these things already I don't believe they'll get a grip on the situation when the Masquerade falls either.
Edit: When I said "Warlock" and "wizard level talents and the like" I really meant humans who misuse magic in general. My bad.
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There is at least some scientific evidence that the so-called backfire effect is a myth, though. It's a contentious topic, as far as I know.Untraining a centuries old ick/kill response is likely to be difficult. People tend to be bad at changing their minds in response to new information.
Why Is It That Even Proven Facts Can't Change Some People's Minds?
Explore why facts alone may not be enough to change someone's mind and gain insights into the psychology behind it.
Anyway, before going to sleep:
[X] Harry, I believe in the Ten Commandments, I've also killed people, the Knights of the Cross kill people when they have no other choice, what you are describing is a hurdle ot cross, not a reason to never set off on the road, not when it could save lives
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
-[X] "Emotions aside", you pause, taking a breath, both to calm down and to punctuate the change in your argument, "this doesn't make Law violations easier, or force the Council to change their policies at all. If anything, such a separation would make it harder for people to turn into full-on mad cackling warlocks. It just removes one victim from the equation."
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
I dont believe that is accurate.
The White Council was established in the 1st millenium AD at a time when the Masquerade did not exist. It took over for precursor organizations.Gods and spirits were a lot freer to interfere on Earth.
It thrived nonetheless, and acquired important allies who have a vested interest in its survival.
The Masquerade's existence or failure is not a threat to the White Council.
Its a threat to human society, stability and the White Council's centuries' long investment in societal uplift.
But the Council itself isnt under threat due to the Masquerade falling.
Independent organizations will either get crushed by the White Council for Lawbreaking, or other players who have no interest in seeing competition, and who would happily enslave a bunch of johnny come latelys who have no backup.
There's a reason why Nemesis and the Black Council's attacks on the White Council have concentrated on trying to destroy it from the outside and inside.
Not on disrupting the Masquerade.
Do remember that Harry advertises in the Yellow Pages under W for Wizard, and noone actually stopped him.
They are irritated, because wizards customarily keep a lower profile.
But its not considered actionable.
Why? The fall of the Masquerade does not increase the population of the seriously magically talented.
And human population growth levels are already crashing; max human historic population is only supposed to go up 40% from 2000 to 2100, as opposed to how it went up 300% from 1930 to 2000.
Like I said, the threats from a major Masquerade breach are primarily sociopolitical and in the empowerment of gullible people with little or no talents to seek patrons and sponsors to do magic, most of whom are self-interested at best or Bad at worst.
Its not going to endanger the White Council itself.
At least, not on its own.
For example.
Divination spirits can notice black magic on a person decades into the future; Ulsharavas IC called Harry out for its use fifteen years after he killed Justin DuMorne because she could still smell it on him.
Like I said, they have multiple options they can employ that they havent actually rolled out.
Its not perfect, but it will be sufficient. As long as society doesnt outright collapse, at which point there's suddenly a much smaller human population in the first place.
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This doesn't follow, because the laws now, and the society now, are not conductive to White Council existing. Current White Council consists of different people than the White Council when it was just founded.
I am communicating it badly. Let's try it like this: White Council consisting of its founding members could almost certainly (we can't be sure if there was no masquerade at all in some form) exist in a Masquerade-less society of 1st millennium AD. This is not at all evidence that current White Council can exist in current society sans masquerade.
VOTE
[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
RATIONALE
If the reaction of Harry, who knows us, to this suggestion is "I think this is a Bad Idea on principle" as opposed to "I dont think you should risk yourself", then its a safe bet that the reaction of the general White Council who have no experience with us at all is likely to be much worse.
I dont think any of this is worth risking our budding relationship with the White Council over.
Losing their trust in our intentions or judgement would make a lot of our efforts in the Twilight World much, much harder. And their active opposition would be a disaster.
And Im certainly not willing to assume that Molly knows more and better about the potential risks than the people who have been dealing with this for the last thousand years plus.
[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
RATIONALE
If the reaction of Harry, who knows us, to this suggestion is "I think this is a Bad Idea on principle" as opposed to "I dont think you should risk yourself", then its a safe bet that the reaction of the general White Council who have no experience with us at all is likely to be much worse.
I dont think any of this is worth risking our budding relationship with the White Council over.
Losing their trust in our intentions or judgement would make a lot of our efforts in the Twilight World much, much harder. And their active opposition would be a disaster.
And Im certainly not willing to assume that Molly knows more and better about the potential risks than the people who have been dealing with this for the last thousand years plus.
Neither side is explaining well I will give it a go. The issue is that magic works on intent Yog.
To the wizards black magic is always damming because you have to want to preform black magic at all, to do it in the first place. Your idea fundamentally does not work, because their really isn't any corruption apart being the kind of person willing to do the act itself in the first place. That the real issue if your willing to do black magic, your willing to do black magic.
Magic explicitly does not work unless the person preforming it truly believes they have the RIGHT to do something. Your tool doesn't solve the fundamental problem that you already want to use black magic, and are willing to do so.
And frankly their is a reason the wizards don't like black magic, it fueled by hate, envy, lust, pride. Kind of like Star Wars darkside corruption, it a quick path to power not a path to enlightenment.
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The corruption is magically enforced feedback loop. You believe something strongly enough to do magic with it, and the magic affects you, making it easier next time. That's an established fact of the setting, both in canon, and in this quest. It's not just belief. It's an active, observable magical effect. Here, directly from Lash's mouth, and she wasn't lying in this case:
The proposed familiar scheme (or, initially, a bound spirit wand scheme) solves this issue. Because it's not wizard who does magic. It's the spirit / familiar, who are not subject to the same corruption. Through Synergy Psychic Phenomena they borrow wizard's magic for the moment, and use it. The wizard asks / commands / directs, but the magic is not directly done by them.
My tool isn't intended to solve the issue of people wanting to do dark magic. If that is an impression I gave, I apologize. It's intended to solve the feedback loop of black magic. It's intended to stop people from turning into stark raving madmen.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
There are those who know of the laws and the consequences for breaking them and have been temped to do so. Some of them may keep away from it because of the mental corruption aspect moreso than the other factors. The magic reinforcement would make you more likely to do it again but without that factor some could look at black magic as less of a gateway drug to evil acts and to an extent ego death and moreso as a 'necessary' tool to be applied if required.
In that specific instance they could make it more "available". I'm not sure if that's what the others mean though.
This worked. Before the population boom. Now without a Masquerade they'd have to stretch themselves thinner as the number of threats and potential ticking time bombs of many forms increases dramatically. They can only delegate so much.
...I'm pretty damn sure that Nemesis's plans to bring down the Masquerade is at least partially in aid of keeping the WC and their assets more occupied so it can pursue its goals with greater ease.
If the Masquerade came down humans might react to wizards in a negative way which means governments could be encouraged to take action. With orgs like the Black Council especially they likely wouldn't go through the effort when it could backfire on them too. They benefit from the environment a Masquerade produces. It's described as the nuclear option by Dresden in canon for a reason.
One Wizard putting his info in the phone book is not a threat to the Masquerade. Especially not with organizations like the Library of Congress existing and humans being willfully ignorant of such topics. Notice that most people don't take Dresden's claim to being a wizards seriously. They certainly aren't going to look at a page in a phone-book and think differently.
The White Council doesn't just concern themselves with the seriously magically talented. They go through some effort to police/handle humans who abuse magic if things get out of hand and make attempts to stop that from happening. Increased deployments for such matters means increased casualties.
We also have to factor in how their enemies will react to their attention being split even further. Outsiders and demons for example would have an easier time getting people to summon them if the public was aware that summoning is possible with the knowhow. You don't have to be particularly powerful to try summoning something.
Considering the current spy issue, along with their war, I'm not seeing how they could effectively handle the much greater workload and avoid creating openings that their enemies would take advantage of with a great degree of success. Unless they completely cut themselves off the movements of humanity will always effect them greatly, as the Salem witch trails would attest to.
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[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
-[X] "Emotions aside", you pause, taking a breath, both to calm down and to punctuate the change in your argument, "this doesn't make Law violations easier, or force the Council to change their policies at all. If anything, such a separation would make it harder for people to turn into full-on mad cackling warlocks. It just removes one victim from the equation."
[X] It's not means to circumvent the Laws. It's means against the corruption brought by breaking the Laws. Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. All should be punished accordingly. But if this allows more leeway in punishment? If at least one in ten of those who kill in self-defense will be spared the sword? If just one more law-breaker feels genuine regret? It's worth it.
-[X] "Emotions aside", you pause, taking a breath, both to calm down and to punctuate the change in your argument, "this doesn't make Law violations easier, or force the Council to change their policies at all. If anything, such a separation would make it harder for people to turn into full-on mad cackling warlocks. It just removes one victim from the equation."
- Location
- Japan, The Big Town
[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
I can appreciate the problem to solve here. But I think the issue is far too emotionally and idealisticly charged on all sides.
Prove judiciousness -> develop good relationship with white council -> bring up issues as pertinent -> propose solutions -> develop solution.
This is the order to get the outcome where we don't aggro the white council I think.
I can appreciate the problem to solve here. But I think the issue is far too emotionally and idealisticly charged on all sides.
Prove judiciousness -> develop good relationship with white council -> bring up issues as pertinent -> propose solutions -> develop solution.
This is the order to get the outcome where we don't aggro the white council I think.
Dresden was born during the population boom, and is coming to maturity as it begins to taper off.
The White Council would have seen it coming in the first place and lived through it. That we didnt see them do anything doesnt mean that they didnt do anything.
Always remember that Harry Dresden has a limited PoV.
Some of it is plot contrivance, some of it is ignorance, some of it is his being deliberately kept in the dark for IC reasons.
And Chicago is not necessarily representative of the rest of the setting.
Its definitely a stressor. I dont think anyone in authority has ever characterized it as a critical stressor.
Im not.
We get that entire speech in Battle Grounds about why it engineered the Invasion of Chicago, and the Masquerade didnt crop up once as a target or a goal. The Accords are mentioned as a target, and stoking mortal fear as a goal, but the Masquerade in and of itself doesnt get a mention.
Now it could be lying, because Nemesis, but we have no way of knowing one way or the other.
What we know: Nemesis goals are to bring down the Outer Gates and wipe out everything. Empty Night.
And Nemesis itself dates back to before there was a Masquerade; it knows damn well that the existence of a Masquerade has little bearing on the Gates themselves.
Sociopolitical instability will help its goals, and its something it appears to actively pursue when it can, but the Masquerade, or the absence thereof? Not really.
Similarly, it bears pointing out that the Outsider-backed coup attempt in the White Court was based around an intent to go after lesser human magic users and their mothers/potential mothers.
Whatever Nemesis' plans are, the use of mortal magic-users is not one of them.
1) Yes. But the progressive nature of black magic appears to be that most users cant but make themselves obvious.
Note that we havent seen any of the elder wizards talk about this as a concern. Just Harry, who lives in one city in one part of the world, and who doesnt even have a fragment of the full picture. I have to wonder if its actually the issue he thinks elsewhere, in other parts of the world where belief in the supernatural is much closer to the surface.
RL? I knew places in Southeast and Southwest Nigeria where you could allegedly go to find witch doctors and shaman who could make you magically bulletproof, or spells for fortune, or magically attractive to the opposite sex.
And in Swaziland/Eswatini, there are air traffic regulations for flying wizards.
In the Dresdenverse, a fair number of these wont be charlatans.
===
2) Its worth remembering that a lot of evil factions dont want mortal magic users either, and arent going to tolerate startups or independents around them.
Duke Paolo Ortega of the Outsider-aligned Red Court, Arianna's husband was a Brazilian professor who spent a lot of his time explicitly going around trying to debunk the existence of magic; Harry met him on Not!Jerry Springer when he was debunking the existence of magic. Again.
The Fomor would simply chuck them into a vat to make more magical supersoldiers or constructs.
And even evil human factions will happily fuck each other over.
See Storm Front, where the black mage who trained Victor Sells deliberately trained him incompletely, without basic lessons. Or Fool Moon, where the FBI hexenwulfen summarily murdered the biker lycanthropes as soon as they got the opportunity.
Destro often doesnt cooperate very well. Or tolerate competition.
===
3) *shrug*
Have they suffered losses? Sure. Serious losses, even; the Wardens were devastated.
Have they suffered existential losses? No.
I think you are very much underestimating their capabilities. Or the reach of the network of allies they have cultivated for centuries, most of whom we never see onscreen. The Venator Umborum, the Church, the temple networks out in Asia, the kenku....they only get brief asides in the books, but they do exist. As do the heavy hitters like Odin.
The Salem witch trials didnt do anything to the wizarding community. It killed at least 41 people, at least 28 of them women.
Its an example of the sociopolitical instability I was talking about, because almost nobody in that community would have been a serious magic-user, assuming there were any magic-users among them.
Thats why they were vulnerable enough to be hung by yokels.
Its not that wizards are immune, mind; Etienne the Enchanter died at the stake in Paris.
But when persecution is going on, the people who can shield, go invisible and step out into the NeverNever are very hard targets for any sort of bullshit, even without their breaking out offensive magic.
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Maybe reshuffle it a bit:
-[][Stunt] matching Harry's gaze Molly reached not just for her own certainty, but for beliefs sparked in what felt like another age. "is it more important to punish sinners or to save them? To avenge victims or protect them?" she asked, blunt as her mother's hammer and steady as her father's faith. "The point isn't to make breaking the laws easy, it's to make it harder"
—[] "In this world of imperfection and compromise we make decisions in ignorance that even with the best intentions can be impossible to understand the consequences of beforehand. I of all people know how easy it can be for that to go wrong". The look on Nelson face when she was done with him flashed across her mind's eye for a moment.
—[] "Even if we could tell everyone it's the nature of people to stumble sometimes. To a healthy person even a justified killing is a terrible thing, and an unhealthy one wouldn't be bothered either way. Our friends here wouldn't be an Indulgence, they'd be preserving the soundness of mind needed to understand the consequences of one's actions and the sanctity of will necessary to choose to be better"
Not directly making the argument about punishment reduction so much as framing it as a different sort of consequence. Also I think this neatly ties together Molly's traumas, which I'm sure would be really fun for him.
- Location
- Right Where I Am
Would this work, DragonParadox?
That's good. Pigeons are like a tutorial level on your Jurassic Park style work, and it'd be a shame for him to already be objecting.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
I think you missed my point. I'm saying that the methods they've been using won't work if the Masquerade falls because of the much greater number of people and enemies they'd have to deal with. This has not happened yet. Going on about their track record when they haven't had to deal with a modern Masquerade absent humanity after the population boom is pointless.
What are you talking about??? The Crown showed us that bringing down the Masquerade is a goal of his. We already know that Nemesis wants that. It's not up for debate.
Point made then. They are suffering significant losses as is. It'll get worse if the Masquerade falls. Problematic for the lifeblood of an organization with many enemies waiting in the wings.
Your mentioning the increased chaos and bringing up that monsters may use the new mortal magic users as fuel. That isn't a good thing for the White Council. It makes their struggle worse.
The Masquerade is still up. If it goes down their looses will get much worse.
One thing I do feel the need to bring up is when the Masquerade Falls the white council is going to get named an extra judicial murder cult. How many minor talents are going to come forward about these people that are leveraging threats on people's lives and that they've seen actively hunting and killing people. Because the council cannot be bothered to explain the rules to anyone or Barely considers itself accountable to minor practitioners anyone who is like Olivia is going to try and shit down their neck at the first opportunity. The fact that they are an extra judicial murder cult isn't going to help that. No one's going to want to hear their pseudo religious magic bullshit about why they killed that 17 year old. Never mind the people that definitely knew their Brother, sister, cousin, friend, other friend, ex, relation had some abilities that let them do something outside the normal then that relation disappeared even if it wasn't the Council that did it they're going to think it was the extra judicial murder cult.
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I'm not sure I'd call 2006 'beginning to tapper off' at least not in terms of world population. It is expected to hit 9.7 billion in 2050 up from 6.6 billion presently, that may be 'only' 50%, but it is still over three billion people more.
The problem that Harry is pointing out is that it will be perceived as a mechanism for safe Black Magic because it can be used as such. Morality aside this is a political concern. 'Do you think you can convince either enough wizards in general or enough senior wizards that this is worth it not to break relations'.
[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
[X] Passenger Pigeon Incarna Plan Go!
I am surprisingly ok with going to war with the White Council, I always thought them to be pricks, even the not corrupted ones, but do we really want that and are we ready to do it now?
Because I see it developing in exactly this direction. The laws may have started out of necessity, but in this day and age for nearly all wizards they became literal religion. Not unlike how not eating pork made actually a lot of sense back then when this commandment was added to certain religions but does not make much sense now with current age food preparation and refrigeration methods. Despite that it still is not disappearing from that religions.
I want Molly to be a far more powerful and influential figure before we go against the White Council this openly.
[X] Passenger Pigeon Incarna Plan Go!
I am surprisingly ok with going to war with the White Council, I always thought them to be pricks, even the not corrupted ones, but do we really want that and are we ready to do it now?
Because I see it developing in exactly this direction. The laws may have started out of necessity, but in this day and age for nearly all wizards they became literal religion. Not unlike how not eating pork made actually a lot of sense back then when this commandment was added to certain religions but does not make much sense now with current age food preparation and refrigeration methods. Despite that it still is not disappearing from that religions.
I want Molly to be a far more powerful and influential figure before we go against the White Council this openly.
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