Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Alratan · Jul 16, 2024

My feeling is that from the perspective of Harry and the White Council, this is Molly:

Ironically, in this, she's the wizard.

Doing this would make them very concerned indeed about the threat that Molly is. We've tried to keep them on side. Doing this seems precisely tailored to alienate them as much as possible without actually attacking them.

DragonParadox · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Just to be clear, which part is Harry objecting to?
Im assuming its not the de-extinction itself, which can be done as an entirely biological thing with mundane science.

The part where you would be making a means to dodge the effects of more than half the Laws of Magic, and it should be noted that he is not objecting in his own name, he is saying it would be a political issue when it comes to the White Council. In a way you could take this as encouragement that he is growing more aware of politics.

No issues on just bringing the birds back.

Alratan · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
More seriously? Taking them back to Sanctuary is easy; just build a Splendor with the My Private Dakota feature.
Thing is, still an Incarna-class.
I wouldnt bring something like that into a domain linked to Molly's soul.

Infernal charms are designed to do exactly that to Incarna class enemies. This is how Infernals are meant to deal with such opponents, to suck them down into their Hell for later processing.

It's almost literally what her Hell is for, as a holding pen for powerful enemy spirits so she can use them as raw material to make new ~~horrors~~ wonders from.

DragonParadox said:
The part where you would be making a means to dodge the effects of more than half the Laws of Magic, and it should be noted that he is not objecting in his own name, he is saying it would be a political issue when it comes to the White Council. In a way you could take this as encouragement that he is growing more aware of politics.

No issues on just bringing the birds back.

Given he cut his grandfather dead for years for using something similar, this is a big deal for Harry.

DragonParadox · Jul 16, 2024

Alratan said:
Infernal charms are designed to do exactly that to Incarna class enemies. This is how Infernals are meant to deal with such opponents, to suck them down into their Hell for later processing.

It's almost literally what her Hell is for, as a holding pen for powerful enemy spirits so she can use them as raw material to make new ~~horrors~~ wonders from.

That was partly for lying about it while Harry himself was under the Doom of Damocles, while he was teaching Harry that it was right for him to be under the Doom. The hypocrisy makes it hit a lot larder, but you are right it would matter to Harry as well.

BoredMan · Jul 16, 2024

Lasombran said:
Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong but don't they already circumvent their own laws with the Blackstaff thing?

Yes they most certainly do...

@DragonParadox Errors.

DragonParadox said:
Those riding inside the dragon are free of minor curses and malecictions,

I don't normally highlight errors in 'system text' since it isn't 'in story' but after I noticed this one it kept triggering my OCD so here it is anyway.

DragonParadox said:
It's probably not groundhogs at all out in the Neverenever, some kind of giant bug with bear-trap jaws would by by guess

DragonParadox said:
But the grey hound is barking and he's not looking at the Harry

DragonParadox said:
Yet none of the pieces fall anywhere near you and through the cries grow and grow until you can barely hear yourself think it is not actively harmful, just aimless and lost.

DragonParadox said:
The words are no less ominous for Harry having to almost shout himself horse to get them across.

Unless Molly is doing a funny in her head here this should be "hoarse".

Sesparra · Jul 16, 2024

[X] Maybe... maybe you're right, this might take too long to roll out
[X] Passenger Pigeon Incarna Plan Go!

BoredMan · Jul 16, 2024

This votes pretty serious I'm definitely gonna have to think on it till tomorrow(I'm sweating my ass off). Alratan makes a good point but BronzeTongue draws attention to how screwed the WC is in the long run with the way they currently handle things. When the Masquerade inevitably falls they're fucked. Without a system in place to manage wizard level talents and the like warlocks will be coming out of the woodwork. As far as we know they have no viable plans to address that without being overwhelmed.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

Alratan said:
My view is that the Council doesn't want to expand the range of people who aren't punished for their sacrilege against magic. They view death as a far and just punishment for defiling something sacred. They only reluctantly spare politically connected people who are too important to receive what they consider just punishment for their sins out of expediency now, and this will continue afterwards.

It's like how rich people in some societies can pay off their victims, or their relatives, something like diya in Islam.

The Blackstaff is an example of them being willing to have one and only one of their trusted leaders do evil (defile magic) in order to prevent a greater amount of defilement. It's the exception that proves the rule, in the proper meaning of the term, given how they keep it secret and how Harry reacted to it He thought it was appalling that it existed and that a wizard used it and ostracised his Grandfather for years over the matter.

You now want to make more Blackstaffs, an hand them out, not to a carefully vetted and experienced wizard with centuries of learning how and developing (magically reinforced) habits of using magic in Law-Abiding ways, to all and sundry, who haven't any education and haven't built up those magic feedback induced habits., with no controls at all.

I am sorry, I am going to be rude: please point out to me where I am saying "should not be punished", or stop beating up a strawman.

uju32 said:
No, Lore of Flesh allows you to alter human beings in fantastical ways
You can make a mortal dude into a griffon, you cant just alter a cat or a pigeon or a dog.

If you're fucking with animals, you're gonna need Lore of Beasts 5.

If you are trying to put a spirit into a body, you need Lore of Spirit 5.

If your plan is to do this with Lash's powers, you need those.
There really is only so far you should be able to bend Lash's powers.
The QM is generous, but it behooves us not to abuse it.

@DragonParadox I would like a ruling here. Previously Lore of Flesh in this quest extended to non-humans, such as Lash offering to boost any dog Lydia got to human intelligence, and by your quotes on her ability to use the forge. From these I assumed that at least to some extent Lore of Flesh covered fleshcrafting beasts and fleshcrafting in general. Is that correct?

uju32 said:
Thats an either an error, or a misunderstanding.
I dont believe the QM means to give us access to two Lores for the price of one.
And I dont think its reasonable to assume so.

You are very disingenuous here. Lore of the the Beast (not of Beasts) has a very different functionality than Lore of Flesh. Here is what Lore of the Beast does:
Summon Animals
Command Animals
Posssess Animals
Animal Form
Create Chimera

Only Create Chimera is similar to Lore of Flesh. And a number of Lores have overlapping functionality. Like, Lore of Awakenings is close to Lore of Flesh.

So, no, I disagree strongly here, and established text in the quest also does. Lore of Flesh is not limited to humans.

uju32 said:
If you are trying to make biological Arcana, those are the rules.

And there's nothing stopping us from making a gadget, in a homunculi style, or Lash handling this with Lore of Flesh.

uju32 said:
This was more or less predictable reaction to someone trying to line-step a fundamental .
If Harry, the family friend who has known us since we were a kid, is objecting this strongly, we can expect other wizards to have a much less polite reaction.

Harry is not at all rational about this, due to his life experiences and over-protectiveness. I actually expect Merlin to take this better.

uju32 · Jul 16, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
He's not wrong about the politics of it. This is something I'd want to do slowly and use the birds to do outreach with. Just releasing them is basically setting loose pistols with wings to find new homes for themselves. Instead they should be the basis of a network that helps the community police itself.

Initially we hand them out very selectively until we have a network going where the birds communicate and try to guide their humans to each other. Once it's big enough to be partially self correcting then we'd do limited releases where the birds would search for unrealized talents and play Hogwarts acceptance letter. Ideally they'd get normalized by people getting them so early they don't realize they're strange.

In a way they'd be like magical cellphones; an immensely useful tool that largely serves its user, but exposes them to being observed in new ways.

So the sell to the council the play would be pointing out that nobody currently has a practical plan for managing the rising human population and associated talents. If there aren't more unrealized practitioners waiting to stumble into warlock hood than there are active ones today there will be in their lifetimes. They cannot police a population that large; something will have to give.

The purpose of the spirits then isn't to let lawbreakers escape punishment, it's to reach the unnoticed and arrest spirals into madness before they happen. Once the system is in place for flocks to track their members they can find people early and get them moving towards a healthy community instead of accidentally driving themselves crazy and festering somewhere out of sight until they've made too many victims to avoid notice.

That could potentially be done without the extra insulation, but practically speaking people are going to stumble. Without a safety net they're all but cursed into recidivism. The only sort of person who'd "benefit" in the manner they fear is someone who'd almost certainly fall to black magic anyway.

A serial killer who found magic would violate the first law repeatedly even without the mental effects. A dentists killing somebody in self defense with shadow magic, to name an example we almost saw in the quest*, isn't likely to start spree killing unless the act itself compels her to.

Or some argument to that effect.

* Yeah the guy was a whamp, but that could have happened with a mortal gunman just as easily.

In a world with literally supernatural temptation, its not really all that hard to get nudged at a time of vulnerability.
Risk-free necromancy for a grieving wizard, of whom there are many at the moment. Risk-free mind-control/memory alteration for some wizard who gets seen doing something he shouldnt.

Even wilfull wizards like Dresden have had situations where they have contemplated premeditated Lawbreaking.
Remember that its canon that Harry considered performing his own Darkhallow during Changes.
There are very real risks to reducing the threshold to the use of Lawbreaking magic or normalizing it.

And the Council has acute memories of what one good wizard gone bad can accomplish.
For most wizards, Kemmler was in living memory.

Lasombran said:
Well, they are wrong. Their beliefs are used to murder innocents and there is no reason for us to tolerate it just to please their more conservative members, who probably do not hold favorable opinions of Molly anyway if we have an alternative. I don't think killing people becomes a good thing because killers attach some traditional/religious meaning to it, if the council wants to be the law then they should punish people according to facts, not vibes.

Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong but don't they already circumvent their own laws with the Blackstaff thing?

1) They arent wrong.Their beliefs are grounded in observed effects over centuries of recorded history.
They arent used to murder innocents; pretty much everyone who warrants a sword to the neck kinda has a trail of dead and ruined lives behind them.

Lawbreaking is a progressive thing for most perps that come to the Council's notice; thats why its viewed so dimly.

2) One wizard is allowed to do this. His role is secret from most of the Council, he wields an Artifact NA that allows him to do ,

AND it isnt consequence free for him.
See where he reflexively murdered Harry's doppleganger in Peace Talks, despite the fact that he wasnt carrying the Blackstaff at the time, because thats what he defaults to in fights.

And Butcher has suggested IC and OOC that there are other, deleterious side-effects for using an elder prehistoric artefact in this manner.

Ebenezar turned toward the walls from which the soldiers were firing. Hits thumped into his robes, but seemed to do little but stir the fabric and then fall at his feet. The old man said, mostly to himself, "You took the wrong contract, boys."
Then he swept the Blackstaff from left to right, murmured a word, and ripped the life from a hundred men.
They just . . . died.
There was absolutely nothing to mark their deaths. No sign of pain. No struggle. No convulsion of muscles. No reaction at all. One moment they were firing wildly down at us—and the next, they simply—
Dropped.
Dead.
The old man turned to the other wall, and I saw two or three of the brighter soldiers throw their guns down and run. I don't know if they made it, but the old man swept the Blackstaff through the air again, and the gunmen on that side of the field dropped dead where they stood.
My godmother watched it happen, and bounced and clapped her hands some more, as delighted as a child at the circus.
I stared for a second, shocked. Ebenezar had just shattered the First Law of Magic: Thou shalt not kill. He had used magic to directly end the life of another human being—nearly two hundred times. I mean, yes, I had known what his office allowed him to do. . . . But there was a big difference between appreciating a fact and seeing that terrible truth in motion.
The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.
I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man's hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, "All right!"

DragonParadox said:
The part where you would be making a means to dodge the effects of more than half the Laws of Magic, and it should be noted that he is not objecting in his own name, he is saying it would be a political issue when it comes to the White Council. In a way you could take this as encouragement that he is growing more aware of politics.

No issues on just bringing the birds back.

Yeah, that seems fair.
If we want the White Council and its many allies to see us as allies, we actually need to consider their own viewpoints, and how our actions play to them. And avoid giving enemies and skeptics cheap openings to smear us with.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
He's not wrong about the politics of it. This is something I'd want to do slowly and use the birds to do outreach with. Just releasing them is basically setting loose pistols with wings to find new homes for themselves. Instead they should be the basis of a network that helps the community police itself.

Initially we hand them out very selectively until we have a network going where the birds communicate and try to guide their humans to each other. Once it's big enough to be partially self correcting then we'd do limited releases where the birds would search for unrealized talents and play Hogwarts acceptance letter. Ideally they'd get normalized by people getting them so early they don't realize they're strange.

In a way they'd be like magical cellphones; an immensely useful tool that largely serves its user, but exposes them to being observed in new ways.

So the sell to the council the play would be pointing out that nobody currently has a practical plan for managing the rising human population and associated talents. If there aren't more unrealized practitioners waiting to stumble into warlock hood than there are active ones today there will be in their lifetimes. They cannot police a population that large; something will have to give.

The purpose of the spirits then isn't to let lawbreakers escape punishment, it's to reach the unnoticed and arrest spirals into madness before they happen. Once the system is in place for flocks to track their members they can find people early and get them moving towards a healthy community instead of accidentally driving themselves crazy and festering somewhere out of sight until they've made too many victims to avoid notice.

That could potentially be done without the extra insulation, but practically speaking people are going to stumble. Without a safety net they're all but cursed into recidivism. The only sort of person who'd "benefit" in the manner they fear is someone who'd almost certainly fall to black magic anyway.

A serial killer who found magic would violate the first law repeatedly even without the mental effects. A dentists killing somebody in self defense with shadow magic, to name an example we almost saw in the quest*, isn't likely to start spree killing unless the act itself compels her to.

Or some argument to that effect.

* Yeah the guy was a whamp, but that could have happened with a mortal gunman just as easily.

Yeah, these are good points. I don't think Harry is going to listen to those at the moment. But I am open to changes and additions to an argument to make to him now. I just want to do this, a lot, because the situation is really screwed up, and it isn't going to get better.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
Yeah, that seems fair.
If we want the White Council and its many allies to see us as allies, we actually need to consider their own viewpoints, and how our actions play to them. And avoid giving enemies and skeptics cheap openings to smear us with.

Considering their options =/= not pushing our own agenda, and this is pushing our agenda of improving humanity's standing, and of looking out for minor talents. Because the ones violating the laws are going to be overwhelmingly those who do it unknowingly. Ie those who discover magic on their own.

We need to navigate this carefully, to handle the rollout, coordinate it with WC, yes, but the juice here is very much "worth the squeeze". Unless you are content with the current status quo and its inevitable deterioration, of course.

Alratan · Jul 16, 2024

Yog said:
I am sorry, I am going to be rude: please point out to me where I am saying "should not be punished", or stop beating up a strawman.

When you choose to make something easier and literally release that thing into the wild, you are implicitly advocating doing it

I quote the Wizards cartoon for a reason. If we make a tool for Law Breaking, people are going to think we want to encourage Law Breaking, or are indifferent to the consequences.

Very rarely is the cartoon so exactly on point. 'Molly. No sense of right or wrong.' is exactly how it will come across.

Particularly as the write-in you're voting for directly says that Law Breaking is not itself a crime, 'Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. ' You're pretty clearly implying that Law breaking is only bad because of it's consequences. Implicitly only killing that is murder is punished, killings that would be justified if done with a bullet are not punished, so should not be punished if done with a fireball.

The White Council disagrees. Killing with a fireball is always evil, no ifs , no buts. Sometimes you have to look the away from evil and not punish it, becase of expediency of one kind or another, but your write-in is directly contradicting their views about the morality of magic.

DragonParadox · Jul 16, 2024

Alratan said:
When you choose to make something easier and literally release that thing into the wild, you are implicitly advocating doing it

I quote the Wizards cartoon for a reason. If we make a tool for Law Breaking, people are going to think we want to encourage Law Breaking, or are indifferent to the consequences.

Very rarely is the cartoon so exactly on point. 'Molly. No sense of right or wrong.' is exactly how it will come across.

Particularly as the write-in you're voting for directly says that Law Breaking is not itself a crime, 'Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. ' You're pretty clearly implying that Law breaking is only bad because of it's consequences. Implicitly only killing that is murder is punished, killings that would be justified if done with a bullet are not punished, so should not be punished if done with a fireball.

The White Council disagrees. Killing with a fireball is always evil, no ifs , no buts. Sometimes you have to look the away from evil and not punish it, becase of expediency of one kind or another, but your write-in is directly contradicting their views about the morality of magic.

I think the way this would go is less 'no sense of right and wrong' and more 'my sense of right and wrong.' Note that Lydia is not in the least bit shocked by the proposal because she too has a bit of an imperial sense of morality that comes with being an Exalt. You can go talk to those nice knights over in Caer Sindi and they would recognize the sentiment on sight. They'd say 'Just like Arthur, just like Camelot'.

uju32 · Jul 16, 2024

BoredMan said:
This votes pretty serious I'm definitely gonna have to think on it till tomorrow(I'm sweating my ass off). Alratan makes a good point but BronzeTongue draws attention to how screwed the WC is in the long run with the way they currently handle things. When the Masquerade inevitably falls they're fucked. Without a system in place to manage wizard level talents and the like warlocks will be coming out of the woodwork. As far as we know they have no viable plans to address that without being overwhelmed.

I dont really think thats true.
Remember that the Masquerade is a pretty recent occurrence. For most of the 2nd millenium AD and before, wizards, witches and magic were acknowledged parts of nature, as were spirits. In large parts of the world outside the West, they still are.

Is there a need for change? Yes.
Are they fucked in the long run, even as they currently do things? Not really.
And they do have options that dont involve anything here.

They are just currently fighting a war and internal infiltration, and thus arent really equipped to address this.
Remember that all Harry did in canon was establish the Paranet, and that proved largely enough in his area of responsibility.

Yog said:
@DragonParadox I would like a ruling here. Previously Lore of Flesh in this quest extended to non-humans, such as Lash offering to boost any dog Lydia got to human intelligence, and by your quotes on her ability to use the forge. From these I assumed that at least to some extent Lore of Flesh covered fleshcrafting beasts and fleshcrafting in general. Is that correct?

The Hounds of Annwyn are sapient spirits as much as they are dogs.
We got a pass on those, because some Lore of Flesh shit applies to Fallen, who are sapient spirits.

Thats not the same thing as both reviving a pigeon species, then engineering at least some of them to have supernatural characteristics.
That falls squarely into Lore of Beasts narrative space.

Yog said:
You are very disingenuous here. Lore of the the Beast (not of Beasts) has a very different functionality than Lore of Flesh. Here is what Lore of the Beast does:
Summon Animals
Command Animals
Posssess Animals
Animal Form
Create Chimera

Only Create Chimera is similar to Lore of Flesh. And a number of Lores have overlapping functionality. Like, Lore of Awakenings is close to Lore of Flesh.

So, no, I disagree strongly here, and established text in the quest also does. Lore of Flesh is not limited to humans.

Respectfully, you are mistaken.
This is Lore of Flesh:

Body Control
This evocation allows the Devourer to alter the body chemistry of her host body and others. She can purge poisons (both natural and manmade) and increase or reduce metabolism.

•• Manipulate Nerves
Like Body Control, this evocation allows the demon to manipulate a subject's nervous system. Strength and reflexes can be enhanced, senses can be dulled or sharpened, or the person can be subjected to waves of intense pleasure or pain.

••• Manipulate Flesh
This evocation allows the demon to manipulate a subject's physical form (be it her own or another's), adding muscle mass, increasing bone density or expanding mental faculties.

•••• Restore Flesh
The demon is capable of restoring an animal or person's body to its original form, no matter how torn or mutilated it has become.

••••• Shape Flesh
The demon is capable of transforming human flesh into any shape desired. Mortals or fallen can become monstrous creatures straight out of legend.

There is some mechanical overlap with Lore of Awakening in healing, and narrative with both Lore of the Wild and Lore of Beasts. But there is very little with Spirit.

You might be able to use it for temporary buffs on animals.
And its explicit applicability to Fallen at least provides a narrative justification to use it on some types of spirits.
But nothing there is supposed to make Tiffany a freeform, trans-species Magos Biologis. Certainly not on its own.

You are really trying to push that well outside what its supposed to be doing.
My opinion.
====

Yog said:
And there's nothing stopping us from making a gadget, in a homunculi style, or Lash handling this with Lore of Flesh.

Lash cant do this.
Those holes in the Demon charmset are deliberate; else a Demon with Lore of Flesh would simply make themselves a substitute body and keep it as a backup for if/when they get killed, or an ally gets killed.

Gadgets are Computer, Science or Technology.
She has no dots in any of them. She has no Excellencies in any of them. None of which are Key.
And it will still require Resources 5 outlay in funds to build a laboratory for biowork.

We have avoided it for a reason.

Yog said:
Harry is not at all rational about this, due to his life experiences and over-protectiveness. I actually expect Merlin to take this better.

You think Harry isnt rational?
Wait till you meet the wizards who actually fought and lived through the Kemmler War(s). Kemmler was only sixty years ago for them; the equivalent of maybe a decade for most normal mortals.

The White Council is a lot more doctrinaire about this sort of thing than Harry is.
Dont mistake the Merlin's courtesy for lack of depth of feeling.

OctarineShrike · Jul 16, 2024

It's a utilitarianism vs Deontology thing where Molly's the utilitarian?

DragonParadox · Jul 16, 2024

Just noticed this, sorry for missing the ping.

Yog said:
@DragonParadox I would like a ruling here. Previously Lore of Flesh in this quest extended to non-humans, such as Lash offering to boost any dog Lydia got to human intelligence, and by your quotes on her ability to use the forge. From these I assumed that at least to some extent Lore of Flesh covered fleshcrafting beasts and fleshcrafting in general. Is that correct?

Lash can still help because Lash is a highly experienced magical doctor,. but she would not be the one doing the actual flesh shaping on ordinary birds. The more magical you make something the more she can help though you would have to go all the way to the level of the Hounds before she could do the action herself with no help from Molly.

BoredMan · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
I dont really think thats true.
Remember that the Masquerade is a pretty recent occurrence. For most of the 2nd millenium AD and before, wizards, witches and magic were acknowledged parts of nature, as were spirits. In large parts of the world outside the West, they still are.

That's true but the population has boomed in recent years the way things were handled back then in this area is rapidly becoming inapplicable. The Masquerade is the only reason why their current methods still work at all.

uju32 said:
And they do have options that dont involve anything here.

Can you enlighten me? In regards to how they could go about stemming the tide of Warlocks when the Masquerade falls. The Paranet isn't enough as the Masquerade hasn't fallen in canon.

DragonParadox · Jul 16, 2024

Good night guys.

BronzeTongue · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
In a world with literally supernatural temptation, its not really all that hard to get nudged at a time of vulnerability.
Risk-free necromancy for a grieving wizard, of whom there are many at the moment. Risk-free mind-control/memory alteration for some wizard who gets seen doing something he shouldnt.

Even wilfull wizards like Dresden have had situations where they have contemplated premeditated Lawbreaking.
Remember that its canon that Harry considered performing his own Darkhallow during Changes.
There are very real risks to reducing the threshold to the use of Lawbreaking magic or normalizing it.

And the Council has acute memories of what one good wizard gone bad can accomplish.
For most wizards, Kemmler was in living memory.

These are people falling right now though; it's an interesting thought experiment to consider if whatever Kemmler's inciting incident was would have lead to his spiral into largest mass murder in recent history had he not gotten hooked on it from the first hit.

To my mind this is a pure numbers game. If increased exposure to the community for new talents and insulation against slip ups saves more people than the lower barrier to entry for temptation allows to fall then that's a victory.

You're not wrong about the politics though. Maybe we could do this in more phases? Incarnating the birds is going to take a splendor and Arcana design, but that means we can potentially use more than one template by making more than one item. The birds agreed to part of their population being familiars, but that can take a lot of forms.

Yog said:
Considering their options =/= not pushing our own agenda, and this is pushing our agenda of improving humanity's standing, and of looking out for minor talents. Because the ones violating the laws are going to be overwhelmingly those who do it unknowingly. Ie those who discover magic on their own.

We need to navigate this carefully, to handle the rollout, coordinate it with WC, yes, but the juice here is very much "worth the squeeze". Unless you are content with the current status quo and its inevitable deterioration, of course.

How would you feel about phasing it in? Maybe start by giving them Gaeas against black magic outside of dire cases of self defense, 3 dots in occult, and dream magic to let them act like Council Approved mini-Bobs.

The principle advantage to these over cyber devils being that they can fly around and use supernatural senses to pick people out in the physical world instead of needing to guess online.

Then we work our way up to the real deal once we have numbers to back up our point and can demonstrate the ability to keep a handle on our birds. Doing that would probably be best served by very public (in so far as the supernatural goes) involvement in the vampire war. The more luarals we collect saving them the more influence and credibility we'll have with them.

I still think this whole idea is on to something, but if the established mortal magical institutions fight us then we're likely to see dramatically worse outcomes for the project.

uju32 · Jul 16, 2024

BoredMan said:
That's true but the population has boomed in recent years the way things were handled back then in this area is rapidly becoming inapplicable. The Masquerade is the only reason why their current methods still work at all.

No, quite the opposite.
The Masquerade exists for other reasons; to avoid political upheaval, to deprive old gods of potential worshippers, to prevent scrubs and the desperate from doing deals.

The wizard community isnt personally at risk
The risks to mortal society are much greater.

BoredMan said:
Can you enlighten me? In regards to how they could go about stemming the tide of Warlocks when the Masquerade falls. The Paranet isn't enough as the Masquerade hasn't fallen in canon.

The Paranet was enough for Harry and much of North America. Active outreach through minor talents and sorcerers would cover most of this.

But they could do everything from contracting with a minor Court of fae or spirits(see the kenku army that Ebenezar brought to Chitchen Itza, or Dresden's Za Guard. And they know confident fae cant lie) for surveillance, to increased scrying, to putting agents in the school systems to look for children entering their teenage years, which is when magic usually manifests.

Remember that the Gatekeeper detected Molly using black magic in Chicago without ever entering the city.

The issue with the explosion of the world's population is that its recent,

Wikipedia said:
one billion in 1804

two billion in 1927

three billion in 1960

four billion in 1974

five billion in 1987

six billion in 1999

seven billion in 2011

eight billion in 2023

The world has tripled in population between 1927 and 1999.
While the White Council are not immortals, they do seem to react to change relatively slowly.
And they have been actively distracted.

First the Kemmler War(s) and their aftermath broke out in WW1 and WW2, not ending until the 1960s
And then the Vampire War started in 2001. Not to mention that the Senior Council and a bunch of senior wizards have been eyeing the stars nervously, because they know the stars will come right relatively soon.

They have been kinda occupied.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

Alratan said:
When you choose to make something easier and literally release that thing into the wild, you are implicitly advocating doing it

I quote the Wizards cartoon for a reason. If we make a tool for Law Breaking, people are going to think we want to encourage Law Breaking, or are indifferent to the consequences.

Very rarely is the cartoon so exactly on point. 'Molly. No sense of right or wrong.' is exactly how it will come across.

Particularly as the write-in you're voting for directly says that Law Breaking is not itself a crime, 'Murder is murder, no matter if done with a bullet or a fireball. Rape is rape, no matter if done with drugs or mind altering magic. ' You're pretty clearly implying that Law breaking is only bad because of it's consequences. Implicitly only killing that is murder is punished, killings that would be justified if done with a bullet are not punished, so should not be punished if done with a fireball.

The White Council disagrees. Killing with a fireball is always evil, no ifs , no buts. Sometimes you have to look the away from evil and not punish it, becase of expediency of one kind or another, but your write-in is directly contradicting their views about the morality of magic.

Ok, there is some clear disconnect here, because I don't understand what you are saying. Your words make no sense to me. Specifically this part:

You're pretty clearly implying that Law breaking is only bad because of it's consequences

Murder is not consequence of an act of murder. It's the act itself. You can't separate "use magic to kill someone" from "kill someone". Because if you do, you are not using magic to kill someone. All violations of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" are killings. There's no separation here, it's literally impossible.

This part is a strawman:

Implicitly only killing that is murder is punished, killings that would be justified if done with a bullet are not punished, so should not be punished if done with a fireball.

I will not be responding to it further.

Now, the important parts: currently, the status quo is that there are only two possible outcomes of breaking the Law: death or Doom of Damocles. And Doom of Damocles is nepotism. Like, full stop, it's nepotism only. If there is someone willing to stick their neck out for you, you may live. If not, you die. I am not satisfied with this status quo. I want a broader range of punishments, alternatives. Restorative justice, ideally, long term, but that's not for now.

uju32 said:
The Hounds of Annwyn are sapient spirits as much as they are dogs.
We got a pass on those, because some Lore of Flesh shit applies to Fallen, who are sapient spirits.

Thats not the same thing as both reviving a pigeon species, then engineering at least some of them to have supernatural characteristics.
That falls squarely into Lore of Beasts narrative space.

Lash offered uplift before we decided to go for Arawn's hounds. Thus, she expected mortal dogs to be affected by her power. Further, currently pigeons are, in fact, spirits. Well, one spirit, but still.

uju32 said:
You think Harry isnt rational?
Wait till you meet the wizards who actually fought and lived through the Kemmler War(s). Kemmler was only sixty years ago for them; the equivalent of maybe a decade for most normal mortals.

The White Council is a lot more doctrinaire about this sort of thing than Harry is.
Dont mistake the Merlin's courtesy for lack of depth of feeling.

I don't think the Council enjoys killing people. Even many Law violators. Tools to reduce deaths would, at worst, be controversial. Yes, release would need to be handled correctly, but the issue is: becoming immune to corruptive influence of the Law breaking doesn't make it easier to break the Laws. It makes it harder. Because you don't get the feedback of "this is right, I should keep doing this" from your magic. You don't start finding it easier to bewitch people or to kill them. If we take a warlock who killed ten people, and a warlock with a familiar like I am proposing that killed ten people, it would be easier for the one without a familiar to kill eleventh person. They would be better at it than the person with a familiar.

In fact - how does becoming immune to corruptive effects of the Laws circumvent said Laws? In what way? Does it make harder to detect that you broke the Law? I don't think so. Does it make easier to cast Law-violating magic? No, it's the exact opposite, in fact. So, against, how does it circumvent or help circumvent the Laws?

DragonParadox said:
Just noticed this, sorry for missing the ping.

Lash can still help because Lash is a highly experienced magical doctor,. but she would not be the one doing the actual flesh shaping on ordinary birds. The more magical you make something the more she can help though you would have to go all the way to the level of the Hounds before she could do the action herself with no help from Molly.

Thank you for clarification. Interesting limitation, thank you, that's informative.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

I think I am either onto something as an argument, or I am seriously, seriously not understanding what's going on, or what Harry is objecting to. The familiars as presented do not require any change in how White Council operates at all. As far as I can recall, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, White Council does not rely on soul / mind corruption as evidence of Law breaking during trials. They have other means to check - in this quest, Merlin use one such spell on us. The wardens collect evidence, investigate and then take action.

The pigeons don't make it easier to hide the Law violations - the people would still be murdered, their minds would still be mutilated, all discoverable things.

The pigeons won't make it easier for a wizard to violate the Law in any practical sense. "Breaking the Laws corrupts your mind / soul" is not common piece of knowledge and doesn't figure in the initial Law violation calculus of most new Law violators, as far as I can tell, especially when the Laws are broken out of ignorance.

The pigeons might paradoxically decrease the rate of repeat offenses. Someone with a weak will might get addicted to magical murder after their first time. If equipped with a pigeon, they won't get addicted, at least magically. Moreover, magic being practiced gets strengthened over time in a positive feedback loop - this at least partially stops such effect.

So, serious question - what the hell is Dresden, and we as voters are talking about? After I stopped to think for a moment, I don't get it.

The only effect this results in is that it removes one of the political justifications for White Council to use executions-only policy. It is politically inconvenient for them that way. It may lead to higher rate of people agreeing to stick out their neck and propose Doom of Damocles to new offenders, but that's a negligible effect, due to low statistics of this practice. It is likely to cause young wizards to push for a wider range of punishments. But by itself it doesn't force White Council to do anything, and doesn't make their practical lives any harder. Political lives yes, but only due to existing internal pressures.

uju32 · Jul 16, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
These are people falling right now though; it's an interesting thought experiment to consider if whatever Kemmler's inciting incident was would have lead to his spiral into largest mass murder in recent history had he not gotten hooked on it from the first hit.

To my mind this is a pure numbers game. If increased exposure to the community for new talents and insulation against slip ups saves more people than the lower barrier to entry for temptation allows to fall then that's a victory.

You're not wrong about the politics though. Maybe we could do this in more phases? Incarnating the birds is going to take a splendor and Arcana design, but that means we can potentially use more than one template by making more than one item. The birds agreed to part of their population being familiars, but that can take a lot of forms.

There are always people falling.
You also have to consider that making something more available means it will be used more often.
Like how the availability of more powerful cars at cheaper price points makes for more incidents of speeding on the autobahn.

Yog said:
Lash offered uplift before we decided to go for Arawn's hounds. Thus, she expected mortal dogs to be affected by her power. Further, currently pigeons are, in fact, spirits. Well, one spirit, but still.

Maybe she was wrong IC; she's hardly infallible.
Maybe the QM missed a detail in that update and we didnt notice. But uplift of animals is not in the capability of any of the Lores she currently has, and cant be narratively justified without high-tier Lore of Beasts.

The pigeons here are immaterial spirits.
The ones they want us to revive are mundane mortal animals.
The Hounds of Annwyn are mostly not. I expect that makes a difference.

Similarly,I would expect Lash to be able to upgrade shapeshifters in animal form, or Fae who have material bodies, or those of the Leanansidhe's hounds who are transformed humans.
But not ghosts. Or Bob.

Yog · Jul 16, 2024

uju32 said:
Maybe she was wrong IC; she's hardly infallible.
Maybe the QM missed a detail in that update and we didnt notice. But uplift of animals is not in the capability of any of the Lores she currently has, and cant be narratively justified without high-tier Lore of Beasts.

Lore of Flesh 3 allows one to increase mental abilities of "subjects", not necessarily humans or fallen (that's only specified for Lore of Flesh 5). I think it's fairly reasonable that making the changes permanent with Lore of Flesh 5 (or extending the use of Lore of Flesh 5 to non-humans within the scope of Lore of Flesh 3 effects).

uju32 said:
You also have to consider that making something more available means it will be used more often.

How do pigeons make it more available? Serious question. I don't get it.

OctarineShrike · Jul 16, 2024

@Yog it's a deontology vs utilitarianism thing I think where Molly is in the role of the Utilitarian to the Council's Deontology.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

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Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

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