Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Arc 13 Post 2: A Tale of Two
A Tale of Two

1st of February 2007 A.D.

"Pursuer of Dutiful Scholarship," other-you says at once surprising and not, already getting used to, getting comfortable even with that half focused insight that were you to describe to another soul would likely feel bewildering.

"Pods, seriously? You look like a clone of me that showed up out of nowhere and you called yourself 'pods'?" you sigh.

"Hey, Invasion of the Body Snatchers is a classic for a reason," she smiles, an expression the mirror never quite caught, it is hard to be that smug without someone to aim it at. "But also that is literally my designation, that is what you were thinking when you screamed, frustration at school, at making time, but at the same time an unwillingness to let go of that part of your life so I'm the you that finishes high school and wears the cap at the end..."

You nod, the gesture turning into looking her up and down. "Well first you are the we-as-all that has to get dressed. Wait here."

Moving now with renewed purpose you get up to your room pick up the clothes required including your favorite jeans with belt and skull clasp, a red hair tie and a red blouse and green sweater, kind of Christmas-y but you think appropriate for the moment.

"Mom, Dad, you know how I just figure out I can do new things..." you walk into the living room.

In the process of getting the scribbles off the wall your mother turns.

And then you walk into the room again. "So I both really didn't wanna go to school today, but I knew it was the right thing to do so..."

"Woah, Molly, you have a secret twin?" Hank had entirely forgotten all worries of punishment.

"Very secret," Pods speaks first. "You can't tell anyone about this you hear?"

Mom looks at Dad, Dad looks at the stand in the corner where the Sword is, doing nothing out of the ordinary.

"I think we should get everyone going and then we can talk to Molly... both of Molly."

Pods rolls her eyes dramatically. "Pursuer of Dutiful Scholarship, does not pursue scholarship on her first day of incarnation, is not dutiful, yay me , zero of ten."

"Hey, we have a duty to our parents, you can pursue that." Arguing with yourself outside your head is every bit as odd as arguing with someone else inside of it.

"Even in this lesser form your are wondrous to behold Majesty," Usum remarks, the attention jolting him into action, or at least into his usual flattery.

***​

The house is quieter, the curtains had been drawn so none of the neighbors would have reason to question why there's more than one Molly around and Pursuer of Dutiful Scholarship is munching on a granola bar, sitting on the corner of the couch, looking furtively between Mom and Dad, wondering if they would accept her-and-you.

"Both of you know I'm not entirely here, you've seen the other side, Dad's been there, to Sanctuary, at least to the palace, the hologlyphs don't really do the rest of it justice..." Is that vain for me to say? You shake off the question, small insignificant thing. Once before and to a very different audience you had made this point. "I'm like an elephant behind a curtain, poking her trunk through, I just learned how to make another hole."

"We are not made of the same atoms nor do we share the same consciousness," other you continues. "Atoms and consciousness are names for things of this universe half-understood. We are the same, woven of the saga-in-endless telling, shadows on the wall cast from different angles."

Despite the gravity of the situation you smile. "We're kind of like an onion, though we really sincerely hope neither of you cry."

"I can go away if you don't want to deal with all this weirdness, you'll never have to see me again..." Pods starts

"No!" both of them shout, your dad's physically out of his chair before she can finish.

"I don't mean die," she hurries to add. "I can't die unless we die... argh stupid words, misleading with all the numeric separation. Well what if someone is both singular and plural, huh?" she deploys a pout that is as much tactical as sincere having used it a time or ten yourself. "OK so think about it like this, does a page die when a book isn't opened to it?"

Dad seems to get it, it's not an easy thing to wrap his head around, no matter how well it's explained. Mom though goes... you've never seen that expression on her face before, there is sadness there and maybe ever rage, but all of it bricked over with a numbness that leaves her face looking almost lifeless as she asks.

"I can never see my daughter again can I, not all of you, not really. Puppets, shadows on the wall.... What did he do? What did he DO?"

She blames Uriel for this, maybe she's always blamed him a little for all the things you've done since last summer that she's struggled to accept and just never admitted it even to herself, much less to anyone else and now here he is blaming an angel of the Lord for her woes and hating herself for it.

How do (both of) you respond?

[] Let Dad try to handle this

[] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[] Write in stunt

[] Call Uriel thrice by the name he gave from his own lips, he will hear you, he will come you are sure of it, he can explain himself.

[] Write in


OOC: Subsouls are one of the most alien things about being a baby Primordial having that explained in detail called for a willpower from both Michael and Charity DC 8, would have been DC 9 if you ended up having to shove cosmic insight into their heads. Still even at an 8 and with their willpower +intimacies low rolls are going to low roll. Michael got 1 success, Charity got 0. At least neither botched.
 
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I think this is a spot where DP should apply some sanity checks to the build rules. Letting our clones be powerful is one thing, but taking it too far right out of the gate could be a problem.

That said, the only way custom charms can work in this context is with death of the author in full force so that's just my opinion and not a post facto "this is what I meant it to mean".
 
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[X] Call Uriel thrice by the name he gave from his own lips, he will hear you, he will come you are sure of it, he can explain himself.
 
Apply hug. Apply giga-hug. Eleven-dimensional mom hug deploy. Within this reality there exist spaces where mom is not being hugged: Excise those spaces.
 
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This charm was never supposed to be a free-form build thing. We're several major rule changes in to the charm becoming something that allows that with little definition on the details.

I'm not trying to be uncompromising here, but I don't see the benefit of being vaguer on this. TTON doesn't nail everything down, but it does set terms. This budget to spend in that power system, this risk type of risk for that type of action. It can otherwise fill the same rolls.

What would you even want to do with SGI + IDU that involves more than essence level * 10 dots of additional merits/gifts on top of passive charms? That's already crazy enough.
I do not agree with you.
For a very good reason; there were hard limits to how much work one could expect Holden to do to balance one charm.

The point of being vaguer is that we are drawing from multiple splats here.
Exalted 2E, Werewolf, Vampire/Kindred of the East, Demon The Fallen AND Mage/Sorcerer are all different game lines, with dozens of books across the splats, even if you only pick one edition apiece.

The combinatorial issues increase exponentially with each addition, and you cant forsee them. Holden certainly didnt try, and I dont blame himt. The only thing he mentioned was avoiding Homogeneity in Fomor breeds.

Its generally gonna be easier to work with the QM to establish a target spec and build towards it.
Than to write a homebrew charm that establishes a hard mechanical target and invites the player to maximize. Especially when you are dealing with a system whose workings you arent particularly familiar with.


For example, Gifts are not Exalted charms or Vampire Disciplines, and are not measured in dots. Neither are Fomor powers.
Your charm variant gives us 10*Essence dots of powers.By the rules of your charm as stated I could load up a clone with 40x Gifts and Fomor Powers at E4, going up to 50 at E5, and it would be legal.

Given as you've rejected thematic and narrative justifications we end up with QM adjudication anyway, which is where we started in the first place with the original charm.
And this is just the most obvious stuff, not going into subtler interactions, because while Ive done my research, Im not a Werewolf expert.


This is precisely why I am generally disinclined to deal with homebrew unless its from someone with a proven track record.
Not that many people have the system mastery to know what they are actually doing, and to forsee the interactions involved, especially in a cross-splat game.

So here is what our Clones have, regardless of which Clone Charm wins.
*squints*
Arent you conflating the base version of the charm with the Signature Charm version?
Because thats how it looks to me.
 
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I do not agree with you.
For a very good reason; there were hard limits to how much work one could expect Holden to do to balance one charm.

All the Fomor charms are pretty obviously made to create regular fomor, horrific atrocities meant as disposable cannon fodder to throw at enemeis, or as a terrible curse that you can inflict on people in abeyance if they serve you.

You're very explicitly not allowed to have any control of how most of them manifest, with one of the fomor charms being the exception that proves the rule by granting very limited protection from how badly screwed the fomor is in one aspect while making it clear that they're still screwed in all the other ways.

Being a fomor is mostly meant as a way of cursing people, not empowering them, or as a chain to force people with you curse with random freak-show 'powers' to be your slave.
 
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[X] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[X] Mom, you can see me just fine. Unless you mean to say I've never seen you, I don't know the young woman who fell into the wrong crowd and got kidnapped by a dragon does that mean I've never seen you? I don't know who dad was before he picked up the sword does that mean I've never seen him? Everyone shows a different face in different situations this is I will admit considerably more magical than that but it's the same phenomenon the face you show to me is different from the one you show to leech, the face you show to Harry is different from the one you show to Harry and that's okay. To say you cannot see me now is to say you've never seen me. Even if some of the features that you cannot see as before are now geographical rather then just emotional.

Yeah I don't know if this clicks with anybody but this is the first thing that came to mind when I heard her say I cannot see you.
 
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[x] Call Uriel thrice by the name he gave from his own lips, he will hear you, he will come you are sure of it, he can explain himself.

I think it may be better to give her both a target and him a chance to explain at the same time.

At least neither botched.

Hmm, makes me want to write a snippet of Charity botching, but don't have the time... too bad.
 
  1. They can learn both yes, they do have to learn then since if they try to cast the way Molly does i.e. just shove essence at the problem they would die
  2. They do yes, though not excellencies
  3. Yes, the greater form of Molly is a Creature of Darkness, thus all iterations of her are
  4. You lose access to the clone and cannot reform them, but you are not otherwise harmed
  5. Yep, all of them are CoD, they are part of a Primordial being reborn, an alien leviathan from the dawn of ages able to reshape reality in defiance of the laws of nature or the free will of mankind. If you somehow figured out how to break the connection (for the non-akuma obviously) they would not be CoD. Also if you were to use the other function of the charm to give birth to a physical clone that one is just human, not a CoD

That is a fair point, I did make that ruling before I gave you guys those passives and it is not like steel skin on its own is going to unbalance the game.

Clones can keep mortal magics, including alchemy, though without excellencies they would find it more dangerous to use it

Really? I think there must have been a miscommunication somewhere.
No miscommunications at all. I asked and got strait answers.
 
Well, it could have gone worse. But overall, I'm not sure that calling Uriel will help, he already explained the reasons for his actions. I think here, unfortunately, Molly have to explain all by herself, but how is another question. Perhaps the wrong analogies were the problem...
 
All the Fomor charms are pretty obviously made to create regular fomor, horrific atrocities meant as disposable cannon fodder to throw at enemeis, or as a terrible curse that you can inflict on people in abeyance if they serve you.

You're very explicitly not allowed to have any control of how most of them manifest, with one of the fomor charms being the exception that proves the rule by granting very limited protection from how badly screwed the fomor is in one aspect while making it clear that they're still screwed in all the other ways.

Being a fomor is meant as a way of cursing people, not empowering them.
Thats untrue. Or at least, only true for vanilla Werewolf the Apocalypse games.
Fomori, Kami and Gorgons were all built the same in Possessed IIRC. And you build Kami and Fomor with most of the same powers in W20; they just get some extra powers as well.

Well, it could have gone worse. But overall, I'm not sure that calling Uriel will help, he already explained the reasons for his actions. I think here, unfortunately, Molly have to explain all by herself, but how is another question. Perhaps the wrong analogies were the problem...
No, its just that radical honesty is not always the best option for everyone.
You dont have to lie, you just dont have to describe the details of the surgery you are about to undergo/have undergone to people who love you but are squeamish about doctors.
 
Well I like this but I think it needs a little more so…

[x] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[x] Mom, you can see me just fine. Unless you mean to say I've never seen you, I don't know the young woman who fell into the wrong crowd and got kidnapped by a dragon does that mean I've never seen you? I don't know who dad was before he picked up the sword does that mean I've never seen him? Everyone shows a different face in different situations this is I will admit considerably more magical than that but it's the same phenomenon the face you show it to me is different from the one you show to leech, the face you show to Harry is different from the one you show to Harry and that's okay. To say you cannot see me now is to say you've never seen me. Even if some of the features that you cannot see as before are now geographical rather then just emotional.
—[x] And if that still does not help you… there are ways, places, treasures, feats, and bargains that would let you see all of me, but… all of them cost something, and most would require becoming… more than mortal, if not more than human.
—-[x] I could call Uriel here if answers from their lips are what you require, but I'm not sure that's what I really want, is it mother?
 
I do not agree with you.
For a very good reason; there were hard limits to how much work one could expect Holden to do to balance one charm.
This I don't agree with.


For example, Gifts are not Exalted charms or Vampire Disciplines, and are not measured in dots. Neither are Fomor powers.
Your charm variant gives us 10*Essence dots of powers.By the rules of your charm as stated I could load up a clone with 40x Gifts and Fomor Powers at E4, going up to 50 at E5, and it would be legal.
That's a fair criticism though; I used that rule based on the approval of the feature in the akuma variant and meant it in the sense of the build rules we used for Olivia. I could have been more diligent about pursuing that.

I do feel that the number of rule changes involved in the "base" charm made it so radically different that it is functionally a new thing itself going by the old name though. The IDU interaction doesn't give any rules at all and you were already talking about adding multiple top tier gifts too, so it's not even an explicitly better alternative.

I'm not sure how you expect any of the custom charm stuff to work without us actually trying to make them and working out the details together. I wasn't available in the thread much yesterday, but it would have been good if that was brought up and rectified then since 2/3rds of all competing options used that phrasing.

I didn't like the charm and we had an option to homebrew something for it. I still like what I wrote better, and think we're better off with it.

Edit:

Simplest patch for this; make the pool of points shared and/or available for spending in attribute/ability improvements.
 
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Fair enough.

I have to go do RL stuff right now.
But I dont think thats the intent for the base clones.
But I'll discuss later when Im back.
Uju, sometimes you need to stop discussing points you don't agree with, every time one of these appears you spend several pages discussing it, the GM has already decided, can we leave it aside and focus on the best vote to help our mom?
 
[X] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[X] Mom, you can see me just fine. Unless you mean to say I've never seen you, I don't know the young woman who fell into the wrong crowd and got kidnapped by a dragon does that mean I've never seen you? I don't know who dad was before he picked up the sword does that mean I've never seen him? Everyone shows a different face in different situations this is I will admit considerably more magical than that but it's the same phenomenon the face you show to me is different from the one you show to leech, the face you show to Harry is different from the one you show to Harry and that's okay. To say you cannot see me now is to say you've never seen me. Even if some of the features that you cannot see as before are now geographical rather then just emotional.
Well I like this but I think it needs a little more so…

[x] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[x] Mom, you can see me just fine. Unless you mean to say I've never seen you, I don't know the young woman who fell into the wrong crowd and got kidnapped by a dragon does that mean I've never seen you? I don't know who dad was before he picked up the sword does that mean I've never seen him? Everyone shows a different face in different situations this is I will admit considerably more magical than that but it's the same phenomenon the face you show it to me is different from the one you show to leech, the face you show to Harry is different from the one you show to Harry and that's okay. To say you cannot see me now is to say you've never seen me. Even if some of the features that you cannot see as before are now geographical rather then just emotional.
—[x] And if that still does not help you… there are ways, places, treasures, feats, and bargains that would let you see all of me, but… all of them cost something, and most would require becoming… more than mortal, if not more than human.
—-[x] I could call Uriel here if answers from their lips are what you require, but I'm not sure that's what I really want, is it mother?

The second part seems something a demon might tell you kid, down the tone a little bit
 
Thats untrue. Or at least, only true for vanilla Werewolf the Apocalypse games.
Fomori, Kami and Gorgons were all built the same in Possessed IIRC. And you build Kami and Fomor with most of the same powers in W20; they just get some extra powers as well.

The charms don't allow you to create Kami or Gorgons (or Drones) though. They only allow you to create Fomor.

And the Kimbery charm is very instructive in the way it allows you to mitigate one and only one aspect of the horror of being a fomor. As I say, it's very much the exception that proves the rule, showing that the other charms that don't have such a clause deliberately don't.

And then there's the FAQ saying that Infernals have neither IC nor OOC control of what a fomor ends up like.
 
[x] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
 
Personally I'd say if its hard to decide how you additionally could augment the clones - just don't.
They are Molly. They have her skills and passive abilities, but can't use Essence. And be done with it.

If they need to be stronger Lash and Molly can enhance them through magic items or biological manipulations.

[X] Try to reassure her that she can see you just fine, there is just more of you to go around
-[X] Mom, you can see me just fine. Unless you mean to say I've never seen you, I don't know the young woman who fell into the wrong crowd and got kidnapped by a dragon does that mean I've never seen you? I don't know who dad was before he picked up the sword does that mean I've never seen him? Everyone shows a different face in different situations this is I will admit considerably more magical than that but it's the same phenomenon the face you show to me is different from the one you show to leech, the face you show to Harry is different from the one you show to Harry and that's okay. To say you cannot see me now is to say you've never seen me. Even if some of the features that you cannot see as before are now geographical rather then just emotional.
 
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