Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Yes, exactly. I know that Exalts usually get to flip flop between counting as mortal and immortal, human and divine, counting as whatever is the most advantageous in any given situation, but I can see where having a vanilla-ish mortal who is not a CoD, and who we can trust perfectly, absolutely, and always, might become important. There's also probably magic that cannot be done via CoDs. And places they can't access.
Not to mention that, as far as I can tell, there's really nothing stopping the clone from exalting as a Lunar. Solar exaltation would be more discerning, but a Lunar one won't. Also alchemical, if we find one. Very long odds, yeah, but it might be possible too. Keeping one clone in reserve, working on slowly learning Sanctuary martial arts as a human, maybe igniting her Essence has potential.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Drat the wrong option is winning. How is it possible for an option Uju32 Yog and me agree on to be losing we barely agree on anything.
There's a line to this kind of thing. Not every little detail needs to be pinned down, but charms like IDU not giving a gift budget where actual training charms do is nonsense. They clearly aren't supposed to be used to make free murder gods.
In some places softer mechanics are nice, but implicit in that are the issues of everyone reading it differently and being shocked when it doesn't do what they want. That has happened more than once in this thread already due to minor differences in phrasing. Green Sun Nimbus Flare, for example, got rolled multiple times right out in the open under the exact opposite assumption most of the thread made for it and we were still shocked when the details were explicitly laid out later. At which point we basically made such an issue of it that a buff got added in.
For something with as many fiddly details as this sort of effect it should be as clear as reasonably possible what you're getting, what you're risking, and how you interact with the effect. Otherwise we're going to inevitably end up making stupid mistakes and getting surprised when our direct interpretation doesn't conform to how it'll actually be used in the quest.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
That is because we don't see combat rolls generally.
Cause we all get one vote a piece? "Damn it, the idiots are voting again" is more annoying than persuasive.
They're not separate people here, that was never on the table. A clone exalting would be Molly becoming a double exalt. It's ridiculous.
I don't think they should avoid being CoD anymore than the humans in the FCF do, but even if they did the justification for the clones being safe is that we'd buff them to something powerful. I don't see any reasonable return worth that risk.
Edit:
We've seen most rolls we used it on because it only came up during major fights.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Yes. But I can't really muster arguments. This entire vote is mostly based on feels and how people feel about souls and the nature of personhood. I just seem to disagree with a lot more people than I expected.
I dont agree. Actual training charms make a discrete number of choices.
For something like this? The choices are more thematic than mechanical, because you cannot mechanize this kind of freeform build, and for once Holden knew better than to try.
IDU is not balanced that way, as an apparently deliberate design choice.
Same with the Solar "Make a wizard" charm or the Sidereal "Make a dragon" charm. Even the Abyssal "make a vampire" charm's only restriction is on the vampire's generation.
Furthermore, it bears pointing out that Holden appears to have picked fomor deliberately, for thematic or narrative reasons.
He could have made dhampirs instead, who have a lower power cap/
Also, your charm variant makes free murder gods just fine.
Which is why I'd rather stick to good faith and QM adjudication.
You are misremembering. GSNF was rolled out in the open correctly. The QM decided it was too effective too early in the story, so we could either have it nerfed, get the XP refunded or rolled back until we were a higher level Exalt. We chose the latter.
That was also a narrative choice, not a mechanical one.
This is the same shit behind the five billion person multispecies population of Sanctuary.
Which has major spirits sleeping under the earth. There is no way to reasonable mechanize the choices there, so noone has bothered to try and we have relied on common-sense rulings and restraint.
That's because v3 has a mechanic for the clones to self destruct that v4 don't, it covers the *what if they're kidnapped* part at least partially.
Edit:
Also, while individually, the votes are very close, globally, there are around 4 to 8 more votes for not taking the canon version. (5 for akuma and 4 for akuma version 2, with 2 voting for both at once in that, and some that may be voting for Bronze too but not most)
Depends on how Dragon counts it, but that's important to note, I feel.
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[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v4
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v3
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v3
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
@DragonParadox a few questions.
1. What boosts, I'd any do the canon charm clones have? Do they get the quio and Sorcery? These are Mortal magics.
2. You said earlier that they get Passive charms. Is this still true?
3. Are they CoDs?
4 What happens to Molly if a clone is Spirit killed?
5. Same as 4 but with custom charm v3 and v4 and the Akuma charm.
1. What boosts, I'd any do the canon charm clones have? Do they get the quio and Sorcery? These are Mortal magics.
2. You said earlier that they get Passive charms. Is this still true?
3. Are they CoDs?
4 What happens to Molly if a clone is Spirit killed?
5. Same as 4 but with custom charm v3 and v4 and the Akuma charm.
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- They can learn both yes, they do have to learn then since if they try to cast the way Molly does i.e. just shove essence at the problem they would die
- They do yes, though not excellencies
- Yes, the greater form of Molly is a Creature of Darkness, thus all iterations of her are
- You lose access to the clone and cannot reform them, but you are not otherwise harmed
- Yep, all of them are CoD, they are part of a Primordial being reborn, an alien leviathan from the dawn of ages able to reshape reality in defiance of the laws of nature or the free will of mankind. If you somehow figured out how to break the connection (for the non-akuma obviously) they would not be CoD. Also if you were to use the other function of the charm to give birth to a physical clone that one is just human, not a CoD
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Same with ghd custom charms?
That doesn't make as much sense for quio out of chracter. We spent actual AP to train them, which is a very rare resources. Having to spend it again to retrain then would feel bad, sorcery we just bought with exp then so that makes sense.
But i would argue that we already did the actions for learning martial arts. It would suck to do then again, and the existing ones aren't particularly strong so I don't seee them being balance issue. She doesn't have the excellencies to cheat with the clones.
This is not an OOC thing for balance, it is baked into the mechanics of the setting. Learning the Bridges is dangerous for humans since they have to use their chi or which they have precisely seven and they can never use more than 4 without dying.
Yes
Thats the dangers of using it. The clones will face that danger regardless so having to spend ap or exp again doesn't make any sense. Since that won't actually reduce the danger.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
For humans yes. But the clones are not strictly humans, what with them getting Passive like ox body, burning sinner rental, Mother Sea Mastery and Transcendent Desert Creature etc.
I would argue that they are FAR from human.
That is a fair point, I did make that ruling before I gave you guys those passives and it is not like steel skin on its own is going to unbalance the game.
Clones can keep mortal magics, including alchemy, though without excellencies they would find it more dangerous to use it
Escellencies seem to be the main contributor to ExWoD problems. Holden should have made them Roll'n'Keep instead of doubling the number of dice directly.
- Location
- Germany
That and key-abilities where you don't drop successes on a 1. That really unbalances the who D10-Success gathering a bit, since it lets you basically ignore bad luck.
Speaking of mortal magics, haven't we been spending XP and AP on Qiao of the Meng? The only Qiao I see on the character sheet is Mo Kung 1 (Steel Skin).
That gave you the ability to make Chi balancing Tea, you have not trained enough in the next level to buy it.
I thought the Chi-balancing tea was "the use of herbs to alter the body's Chi" from Meng 1 (Balance of the Spirit). Did we just sort of half-ass it and treat the tea itself as minor alchemy, instead?