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So what, exactly, are you actually proposing be done?

I guess I'm having trouble following through to what conclusion or action plan you are advocating for here?

What are you seeing as "necessary", based on these opinions/observations?
Just that we should be fully prepared to have to conquer and occupy Victoria in its entirety and also that effective counter insurgency against truly fanatical opposition is extremely ugly and we should also be prepared for that.


Anyone expecting to build a coheret local goverment out of whatever woman and liberated slaves we can get to side with us will likely be sorely disappointed. Non martial local rule will likely not return to the region of Victoria until after a lengthy occupation, deprogramming and reconstruction.
 
Just that we should be fully prepared to have to conquer and occupy Victoria in its entirety and also that effective counter insurgency against truly fanatical opposition is extremely ugly and we should also be prepared for that.


Anyone expecting to build a coheret local goverment out of whatever woman and liberated slaves we can get to side with us will likely be sorely disappointed. Non martial local rule will likely not return to the region of Victoria until after a lengthy occupation, deprogramming and reconstruction.

The funny thing about your use of Imperial Japan as an example earlier is that Japan turned into a functional democracy pretty quickly and without the allies having to fight an insurgency.
 
The funny thing about your use of Imperial Japan as an example earlier is that Japan turned into a functional democracy pretty quickly and without the allies having to fight an insurgency.
Japan's Fanatism was fanatical loyalty to the Japanese goverment. A goverment that was comprised of primarily of people older than Imperial Japans descent into fascism many of whom had not drunk the coolaid. If Emperor Herihito had instead ordered japan to fight to the last alot of the Japanese military would have continued fighting intil no longer phsycally capable of doing so. We know this not as some alternate histroival speculation but as a observed fact because some thier soldiers that did not get the surrender notification literally did.

We saw into Blackthornes mind. We know he's a coolaide drinker who legitimately believes at least a signicant amount of Victoria's bullshit. There is no one to order a early surrender cause the inmates have long since taken over the asylum. No cool heads exist TO prevail.
 
Except it's not just an image Victoria is projecting. It's not just propaganda. It's objective observable fact. We have literally observed divisions of the Victorian charge themselves into machine gun nests TO THE LAST MAN. They climbed over hills of thier own corpeses to try desperately to kill just one of us. We have seen hundreds of Victorian soldiers and sailors choose to drown or freeze ro death rather than allow themselves to be captured.
Yes, strong military discipline is present. And the Victorians prefer death to capture, presumably because they were told the enemy army would torture them to death if they were captured. And? That doesn't necessarily mean the broad population ideologically supports the state, it could just as easily that the state apparatus is very good at coercing people.
Old men agreed to slaughter there own fellow townsfolk and to die to the last to kill just a small number more of us. You cannot sit there and tell me that Victoria is just another unpopular authoritarian regime trying to pretend thier soldiers are dogmatic and fanatical when we have seen countless examples of dogmatism and fanaticism. Thier support amongst at the very least the male white population is objectviely strong and fanatical. Its not just us that have physically observed these phenomenon.
No, we have observed people acting as suicide bombers. Why do you think those are representive of the general population? If I were to pick people for a suicide attack, I would pick the most fanatical or people I'm most able to coerce, rather than average people. You're conflating the behaviour of people living in a coercive state with a willingness to die for the ideology of the state.
Let's even assume that is true, that every town has a certain number of people willing to act as suicide bombers. So what? We will loose people to the insurgency, but the problem of insurgents will fix itself soon enough if you are guaranteed to loose a strong supporter with every attack.
We are not talking Francoist Spain were talking Imperial Japan on steroids. Even isolated and cut off Imperial Japansese Island Garrison frequently fought to the last man. For most authoritarian regimes the image of near universal fanatism is just a trick
Funny thing about that comparison: Once the Japanese state surrendered, that was it. Despite all their fascist fanaticism and their propaganda, their ideology did not outlive the surrendering state. No great insurgency, no great culling of the adult male population, nothing. Just another liberal-ish state rising from the ashes of a worse one. Same thing with the Nazis, they put up a desperate last resistance, but once they capitulated their fabled "Werewolf" insurgency faded out. A lot of the fanatical support requires coercion and propaganda, which are difficult to come buy once the state you're fighting for collapses. If people notice "Hey, we aren't all killed like the old military propaganda said", the willingness to martyr themselves for a dead state quickly vanishes.
The Victorians can try to put up a desperate resistance, it will not fundamentally alter the balance of force. Military fanaticism stands can delay a defeat, but it isn't a replacement for guns and butter.
Not to mention we literally already killed low double digits percentages of the adult working age male population between our war and the Civil War that followed. Round two is almost certainly gonna be even bloodied. I genuinely don't see how its physically possible for Victoria to be crushed without thier adult male population taking a very very noticeable demographic hit.
Of course a war with large-scale mobilization is going to involve a demographic hit. But there is a lot of room between "demographic hit due to the war" and "Paraguay after the war of the triple alliance." That is a far different discussion than your near fantastical story about the victorian population "supporting retroculture so much we can't ideologically win until they are all dead". Honestly, I didn't think this internal propaganda would work on outsiders.
 
One big advantage that especially FCNY and the NCR have is that they have modern educational system. Alot of people have been saying that the Vics will have fully modern tanks and will be able to use them effectively in round 2. I'm not sure that will be true.
Given that the Vicks will have Russian trainers who do know how to operate the tanks, the most likely consequence of this problem is that the trainers keep telling Blackwell "no, the training is not finished because your people are dumbasses, your new tank corps is not ready."

Unless some outside force compels Blackwell to start the second Commonwealth-Victorian War early, before his new model army is ready, this just delays his readiness.

And while you suggest the idea of starting the war early, that's going to work out even worse for us than it is for them. Most of our twentysomething military-age population has little or no better formal education than the Vicks do, and unlike the Vicks we don't even have suppliers lined up for the weapons we need. Attacking them in 3-4 years may very well result in their half-prepared modern army being a lot more dangerous than our half-prepared modern army.

I think you tend to conflate "this breaks rules and is ruthless" with "this is a good idea." It is 'ruthless' and 'breaks rules' to ignore the ceasefire, but that doesn't mean we actually profit from doing so.

Everything you stated about military procurement only counts if FCNY is only willing to buy top of the line and brand new. If FCNY is willing to settle for gear a generation old that's been sitting in a storage warehouse for a decade thier options are much much more signicant.
By your own argument, those highly militarized countries will be reluctant to give up all their outdated last-generation military equipment, as they may need it soon to equip their own reserve troops. Buying it for cash is going to be difficult, unless the foreign powers in question decide to do so as an outgrowth of their foreign policy.

Given that New York has no reason to expect immediate Victorian invasion, paying large sums to get foreign arms manufacturers to make new equipment and stick it in a warehouse for them may actually work better than trying to hastily purchase older equipment on short notice and finding out that the owners don't actually want to sell.

Short version is that everyone is remilitarizing right now, which means there's a LOT of demand and relatively little offer, because each country will obviously prioritize their own armed forces.

Now, FCNY was paying for keeping stuff ready for them, so they're probably in a better situation than us, as they already had deals established. But NORMALLY it would be complicated to buy equipment on a large scale right now... At least for a year or so
Well, it seems likely that New York has been laying groundwork in this area for many years, and they've had vast sums of money, unthinkably large compared to what we have to throw around. We're a complete unknown, by relative standards.

But you're not wrong.

Just that we should be fully prepared to have to conquer and occupy Victoria in its entirety and also that effective counter insurgency against truly fanatical opposition is extremely ugly and we should also be prepared for that.
So far as I can tell, everyone else has already accepted that, so it seems pointless to write at length on the subject of urging us to accept it.

...

However, it should be noted that all the "very killy fanatic" people we've so far come across are in the Victorian military, primarily their army units and the CMC-Crusader units, or veterans of same. The Victorian Army is a long-service force whose recruits remain under the colors for easily 20-30 years if not killed in action before mustering out. They are, yes, heavily indoctrinated.

That doesn't mean the underlying mainstream society is nearly as indoctrinated.

During the Pacific War the US military saw constant suicidal resistance from Imperial Japanese Army and Navy units, and fully expected that they would have to occupy Japan in the face of decades of violent counterinsurgency and probably kill a double digit percentage of the entire Japanese population. In practice, after the surrender in Tokyo Bay, this fanatical resistance did not materialize. Putting together a new and much, much, much less warlike Japanese government turned out to be eminently possible. Life went on.

It turned out that the fanatical indoctrination was relatively thinly spread across the top of Japanese society, and was mainly the province of the military. The civilian population was nowhere near as interested in dying for Yamato spirit, and even the conscripted military rank and file had to be aggressively pressured into doing it.

Japan's Fanatism was fanatical loyalty to the Japanese goverment. A goverment that was comprised of primarily of people older than Imperial Japans descent into fascism many of whom had not drunk the coolaid. If Emperor Herihito had instead ordered japan to fight to the last alot of the Japanese military would have continued fighting intil no longer phsycally capable of doing so. We know this not as some alternate histroival speculation but as a observed fact because some thier soldiers that did not get the surrender notification literally did.

We saw into Blackthornes mind. We know he's a coolaide drinker who legitimately believes at least a signicant amount of Victoria's bullshit. There is no one to order a early surrender cause the inmates have long since taken over the asylum. No cool heads exist TO prevail.
Spelling aside, the question then becomes "what percentage of the population is actually indoctrinated into violence." We've found that this is oddly complex and nuanced. For instance, captured Vicks (not unlike captured IJA soldiers) often become surprisingly docile in captivity because the same indoctrination that tells them to resist captivity also tells them to defer to the authorities of whatever location they're stationed at.

Ironically, much of the same obedience training that allows Victoria to maintain tyranny will work against any attempt by its survivors to play "Werewolf" fantasies and live among its population as a resistance movement against Commonwealth occupation. The same people who spent their lives being terrorized into convincing themselves it was proper to sell out dissidents to the Inquisition for food will have little trouble convincing themselves to locate renegade inquisitors 'gone to ground' as guerillas and sell them out to the Commonwealth for more and better food.

Of course a war with large-scale mobilization is going to involve a demographic hit. But there is a lot of room between "demographic hit due to the war" and "Paraguay after the war of the triple alliance." That is a far different discussion than your near fantastical story about the victorian population "supporting retroculture so much we can't ideologically win until they are all dead". Honestly, I didn't think this internal propaganda would work on outsiders.
Some people just find the idea of a war of annihilation resonant and will project its inevitability onto situations where it is very much evitable.
 
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During the Pacific War the US military saw constant suicidal resistance from Imperial Japanese Army and Navy units, and fully expected that they would have to occupy Japan in the face of decades of violent counterinsurgency and probably kill a double digit percentage of the entire Japanese population. In practice, after the surrender in Tokyo Bay, this fanatical resistance did not materialize. Putting together a new and much, much, much less warlike Japanese government turned out to be eminently possible. Life went on.
Since the general topic came up in discussion: Insurgencies aren't just won by their individually being fanatically devoted to a cause. That can help (or harm, in cases where the insurgency doesn't get the average person), but a lot of insurgency depends on support by the population. Friendly people to feed you and shelter you in their home, the yhepard who is willing to slip information on enemy convoys in exchange for payment and the youth willing to sign up for your cause. A lot of the effectiveness in operations comes from the population taking on auxiliary roles for the insurgency, plus recruiting people.
Could an insurgency inside the Victorian territory demand a high blood toll and be expensive? Yeah, that's possible. Could they maintain long-term support over an actual government? I doubt it. We don't have the best capabilities, but I'm going to assume we can build a state that's generally better than "Nazi rapists who hate pacemakers being in charge of everyvbody". Ideology doesn't turn people into automatons that support a cause no matter what, they're loyalties are also influenced by their material conditions. And we can certainly improve the material conditions for vast swaths of society by being a sane state interested in stabilizing the region.
Ironically, much of the same obedience training that allows Victoria to maintain tyranny will work against any attempt by its survivors to play "Werewolf" fantasies and live among its population as a resistance movement against Commonwealth occupation. The same people who spent their lives being terrorized into convincing themselves it was proper to sell out dissidents to the Inquisition for food will have little trouble convincing themselves to locate renegade inquisitors 'gone to ground' as guerillas and sell them out to the Commonwealth for more and better food.
Yeah, brutalizing the average population for decades is going to lead to a number of enemies there. Which isn't great for an insurgency trying to operate out of rural areas and that also needs a claim to legitimacy. Provided we actually start with a clean slate rather than co-opting old elites, we can buy a decent amount of goodwill by simply putting a bunch of local bastards on trial and providing actual medicine, plus some food aid. There is a lot of free lunch in terms of support open in these areas if you're not an insane ideologue concerned with social stratification.
Some people just find the idea of a war of annihilation resonant and will project its inevitability onto situations where it is very much evitable.
I'm more of a bloodless victory enby myself. Generally authoritarian systems are morally complicated in that you turn a lot of people on the lower parts into the dual role of being both victim and victimizer. The people in those structures are obviously still guilty in cases of their crimes, but the ones very low face a considerable amount of coercion to commit heinous actions. I can understand resentment or little compassion towards them, but I don't like unnecessary cruelty towards people with limited options.
 
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Since the general topic came up in discussion: Insurgencies aren't just won by their individually being fanatically devoted to a cause. That can help (or harm, in cases where the insurgency doesn't get the average person), but a lot of insurgency depends on support by the population. Friendly people to feed you and shelter you in their home, the yhepard who is willing to slip information on enemy convoys in exchange for payment and the youth willing to sign up for your cause. A lot of the effectiveness in operations comes from the population taking on auxiliary roles for the insurgency, plus recruiting people.
Could an insurgency inside the Victorian territory demand a high blood toll and be expensive? Yeah, that's possible. Could they maintain long-term support over an actual government? I doubt it. We don't have the best capabilities, but I'm going to assume we can build a state that's generally better than "Nazi rapists who hate pacemakers being in charge of everyvbody". Ideology doesn't turn people into automatons that support a cause no matter what, they're loyalties are also influenced by their material conditions. And we can certainly improve the material conditions for vast swaths of society by being a sane state interested in stabilizing the region.

Yeah, brutalizing the average population for decades is going to lead to a number of enemies there. Which isn't great for an insurgency trying to operate out of rural areas and that also needs a claim to legitimacy. Provided we actually start with a clean slate rather than co-opting old elites, we can buy a decent amount of goodwill by simply putting a bunch of local bastards on trial and providing actual medicine, plus some food aid. There is a lot of free lunch in terms of support open in these areas if you're not an insane ideologue concerned with social stratification.

I'm more of a bloodless victory enby myself. Generally authoritarian systems are morally complicated in that you turn a lot of people on the lower parts into the dual role of being both victim and victimizer. The people in those structures are obviously still guilty in cases of their crimes, but the ones very low face a considerable amount of coercion to commit heinous actions. I can understand resentment or little compassion towards them, but I don't like unnecessary cruelty towards people with limited options.
Have you considered that alot of people especially indoctrinated adult males actually enjoy being conquring rapist nazis and that a state of conquering rapist nazis could actually be extremely effective at maintaining state loyalty from such people even after said state ceases to exist? How can improving material conditions be enough for a state that has convinced its people that improved material conditions are a bad thing? They are literally all Luddites.


Here's a better question. Do you have counter examples? I have given dozens of examples of Victorian fanatism. Can you give any examples of the contrary? Can you give me the names of large resistance groups in Victoria? Oh you can't because even the player option resistance organization was a single cell and large scale resistance to victoria almost certainly doesn't exist?

Where is the army's of victorians fleeing rhe civil war? Oh there are none? All the victorians are staying loyal to one side or another of the civil war and basically none of them are fleeing? How about this example. Did the majority of the buffaloians take up our offer to evacuate when we pulled out? No? Under half of them did even after Victoria spent a whole month blaring non stop propaganda about how they will burn Buffalo to the ground? If that everything that happened in buffalo didnt sour the majority of Buffaloians on Victoria what do you think it would take?! Do you think we didnt feed them better and improve thier material conditions while we were in Buffalo? How well did it work?
 
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Have you considered that alot of people especially indoctrinated adult males actually enjoy being conquring rapist nazis and that a state of conquering rapist nazis could actually be extremely effective at maintaining state loyalty from such people even after said state ceases to exist? How can improving material conditions be enough for a state that has convinced its people that improved material conditions are a bad thing? They are literally all Luddites.


Here's a better question. Do you have counter examples? I have given dozens of examples of Victorian fanatism. Can you give any examples of the contrary? Can you give me the names of large resistance groups in Victoria? Oh you can't because even the player option resistance organization was a single cell and large scale resistance to victoria almost certainly doesn't exist?

Where is the army's of victorians fleeing rhe civil war? Oh there are none? All the victorians are staying loyal to one side or another of the civil war and basically none of them are fleeing? How about this example. Did the majority of the buffaloians take up our offer to evacuate when we pulled out? No? Under half of them did even after Victoria spent a whole month blaring non stop propaganda about how they will burn Buffalo to the ground? If that everything that happened in buffalo didnt sour the majority of Buffaloians on Victoria what do you think it would take?! Do you think we didnt feed them better and improve thier material conditions while we were in Buffalo? How well did it work?
Please provide citations from the QM showing that your assessment of Victorian society is correct.

Hint: you cannot. The vast majority of Victorian subjects are brutally suppressed peasants, who live in desperate-but-silent fear of their societal "betters", and do not have the capability to flee. Because there is no reliable long-distance transport. Buffalo did not believe that we could beat Blackwell's forces, and for the most part were terrified of what would happen.

Also, you do not have any evidence that your assertions about the state of Victorian resistance are correct. So please stop it with your creepy enthusiasm about killing lots of people.
 
Please provide citations from the QM showing that your assessment of Victorian society is correct.

Hint: you cannot. The vast majority of Victorian subjects are brutally suppressed peasants, who live in desperate-but-silent fear of their societal "betters", and do not have the capability to flee. Because there is no reliable long-distance transport. Buffalo did not believe that we could beat Blackwell's forces, and for the most part were terrified of what would happen.

Also, you do not have any evidence that your assertions about the state of Victorian resistance are correct. So please stop it with your creepy enthusiasm about killing lots of people.
Why did Buffalo not believe that we could beat Blackwells forces? The fact that the bulk of the Victorian Army got annihalated after they invaded us wasn't some secret. There were too many body bags for even Victoria to cover up. How could they not believe we could ro something that they knew we already did....and then they psychically watched us do it again. The big battle against the militia that we won that the whole Buffalo succession vote was to force was damn near in sight of the city.


If Victoria is majority unarmed peasants terrorizes into submission by the CMC then where exactly are Blackwells legions coming from? The CMC IS those "societal betters" you speak of. If the sole motivating factor of the Victorian peasantry is fear of them how the hell was Blackwell rallying militia to fight the CMCs military wing?


There are literally right this second probably HUNDREDS of people WALKING the vast distance between Hondurous, El Salvador and other central American country's to the US border every single week. The most reliable form of transport is your own two legs. It's not as if a state in the middle of the civil war that just got its entire professional military annihalated can adequately guard all its numerous border of both external threats and preventing migration. For at least some Victorians simply walking over the border should be an option. Yet none our taking it.
 
Huh, glad y'all are back and discussing strategy! While it would have been fun to watch you Commonwealth hicks get wiped out by a Spetznaz team after the Declaration of Independence stunt you pulled, our nations share the goal of reuniting America.

However, something I wanted to ask is, what's your overall plan for the next war? Like, you cant discuss using gas or what you're gonna do with Victoria after you've liberated it if you don't even know what the next war is gonna look like. Like, is the next war actually gonna be when you liberate Victora? I know some of it depends on what Victoria does, but like, c'mon, lets brainstorm first things first, then you can get into the details.

Oh, Freedom Party? We won't see em no more. Peace and good luck y'all!

Ugh, will people knock it off with the invading Oregon thing, we have gotta be more subtle now if we're ever gonna beat these Commonwealth hicks- wait is this thing still on-
 
Why did Buffalo not believe that we could beat Blackwells forces? The fact that the bulk of the Victorian Army got annihalated after they invaded us wasn't some secret. There were too many body bags for even Victoria to cover up. How could they not believe we could ro something that they knew we already did....and then they psychically watched us do it again. The big battle against the militia that we won that the whole Buffalo succession vote was to force was damn near in sight of the city.


If Victoria is majority unarmed peasants terrorizes into submission by the CMC then where exactly are Blackwells legions coming from? The CMC IS those "societal betters" you speak of. If the sole motivating factor of the Victorian peasantry is fear of them how the hell was Blackwell rallying militia to fight the CMCs military wing?


There are literally right this second probably HUNDREDS of people WALKING the vast distance between Hondurous, El Salvador and other central American country's to the US border every single week. The most reliable form of transport is your own two legs. It's not as if a state in the middle of the civil war that just got its entire professional military annihalated can adequately guard all its numerous border of both external threats and preventing migration. For at least some Victorians simply walking over the border should be an option. Yet none our taking it.
Virtually everything you have based your post on is wrong, or at best irrelevant.

In order: learned helplessness is a thing. How they could believe that is not something I need to convince you of - it's written in the update.
...there are many reasons why the people of Buffalo vote, pretty solidly, to remain a part of Victoria. Part of that is the terror that the Loyalists will win, and what they will do after they win. Part of it is the threats. Part of it is simply inertia.
They would not be swayed by threats from Victoria unless they believed they would be carried out. If you cannot believe that, please stop making that my problem.

With regards to "where are Blackwell's legions coming from?" They called up the militia, and armed the ones who did not have guns.
(But, it is very much worth noting, that many of the guns that are in civilian ownership are not military-grade.)
And I never said that fear was the sole motivating factor. You seem to be cherrypicking arguments here.

As for the comparison of Central American migrants and Victoria, you are ignoring that the Victorian surveillance state does have ready transportation, communications, and has an interest in punishing those who flee. (Often, by effectively enslaving them.)
Also, Victorians have been carefully taught that those outside their borders are "orcs" who will kill them on sight - the Inquisition has had 50 or so years to hone their training they got from Russia on "how to run a totalitarian state by propaganda and terror."
--
Now. Nobody doubts that there will likely be some Victorian resistance in defeated areas. But that does not seem to be what you are suggesting, and it looks like you are basing your conclusions on a misreading of the situation.
 
Virtually everything you have based your post on is wrong, or at best irrelevant.

In order: learned helplessness is a thing. How they could believe that is not something I need to convince you of - it's written in the update.

They would not be swayed by threats from Victoria unless they believed they would be carried out. If you cannot believe that, please stop making that my problem.

With regards to "where are Blackwell's legions coming from?" They called up the militia, and armed the ones who did not have guns.
(But, it is very much worth noting, that many of the guns that are in civilian ownership are not military-grade.)
And I never said that fear was the sole motivating factor. You seem to be cherrypicking arguments here.

As for the comparison of Central American migrants and Victoria, you are ignoring that the Victorian surveillance state does have ready transportation, communications, and has an interest in punishing those who flee. (Often, by effectively enslaving them.)
Also, Victorians have been carefully taught that those outside their borders are "orcs" who will kill them on sight - the Inquisition has had 50 or so years to hone their training they got from Russia on "how to run a totalitarian state by propaganda and terror."
--
Now. Nobody doubts that there will likely be some Victorian resistance in defeated areas. But that does not seem to be what you are suggesting, and it looks like you are basing your conclusions on a misreading of the situation.
I'm not talking about the Buffalo vote. I'm talking about after the vote. After Victoria thought they voted to suceed and spent a whole month blasting on all air waves that they were planning on burning Buffalo to the ground. After all that when we pulled out we offered to evacuate the whole city to pur territory and had the fully capability to do so. Even after everything less than half of them took us up on that offer.


We know that CMC Political Commisars are imbedded to at least some degree in all thier militia units. As they expand thier militia and bring it up to military standing where exactly do you think the new commisars are coming from? Training a political commisar takes a lot longer than an infantry man. Buuuttttt the skill set between inquisitor and commisar actually has a decent amount of overlap. This is just a inference but I suspect since the Victorian state needs loyal soldiers more than it needs terror cops at this precise moment that the Inquisition is being very throughly drained to supply the militia with commisars. The Inquisition has likely never been stretched thinner than they are right at this moment.
 
I'm not talking about the Buffalo vote. I'm talking about after the vote. After Victoria thought they voted to suceed and spent a whole month blasting on all air waves that they were planning on burning Buffalo to the ground. After all that when we pulled out we offered to evacuate the whole city to pur territory and had the fully capability to do so. Even after everything less than half of them took us up on that offer.


We know that CMC Political Commisars are imbedded to at least some degree in all thier militia units. As they expand thier militia and bring it up to military standing where exactly do you think the new commisars are coming from? Training a political commisar takes a lot longer than an infantry man. Buuuttttt the skill set between inquisitor and commisar actually has a decent amount of overlap. This is just a inference but I suspect since the Victorian state needs loyal soldiers more than it needs terror cops at this precise moment that the Inquisition is being very throughly drained to supply the militia with commisars. The Inquisition has likely never been stretched thinner than they are right at this moment.
For the first, that doesn't actually disprove my point.

For the second, that assumes that Russian forces or "PMCs" aren't currently taking over that role. Sadly, we don't have much of a external intelligence service, so we don't know what exactly the state of things is over there.
(Yet another reason I feel that making Definite Pronouncements about How Things Are is something that is ... premature.)
 
Have you considered that alot of people especially indoctrinated adult males actually enjoy being conquring rapist nazis and that a state of conquering rapist nazis could actually be extremely effective at maintaining state loyalty from such people even after said state ceases to exist? How can improving material conditions be enough for a state that has convinced its people that improved material conditions are a bad thing? They are literally all Luddites.
No, because that is a profoundly stupid. Being an ordinary citizen of Victoria comes with regular near-starvation, your family being under constant surveillance, you yourself likely being conscripted into the military and getting told to charge a trench, with your unit taking heavy casualties and so on. Your suggestion requires ideology to be a kind of magic that makes people ignore their own suffering.
If Victoria is majority unarmed peasants terrorizes into submission by the CMC then where exactly are Blackwells legions coming from? The CMC IS those "societal betters" you speak of. If the sole motivating factor of the Victorian peasantry is fear of them how the hell was Blackwell rallying militia to fight the CMCs military wing?
The answer is conscription. If you ingrain the fear of your entire family being slaughtered if you attempt to dodge the draft, a lot of people are going to be willing to be called up. And to that the threat of outside army burning down your home if they occupy it, plus a few promises of reform and you can get a decent compliance rate. Blackwell basically captured the state apparatus, so him being able to mobilize the peasantry is unsurprising.
There are literally right this second probably HUNDREDS of people WALKING the vast distance between Hondurous, El Salvador and other central American country's to the US border every single week. The most reliable form of transport is your own two legs. It's not as if a state in the middle of the civil war that just got its entire professional military annihalated can adequately guard all its numerous border of both external threats and preventing migration. For at least some Victorians simply walking over the border should be an option. Yet none our taking it.
This is factually untrue. Enough Victorians are fleeing the state to cause a second refugee wave for us.
Population Boom: This nation's promise and stability have attracted far too many mouths to feed, and the food and housing situations are deeply unstable. If this pressure is not relieved, mass die-offs are inevitable. After a brief respite, your recent victory over Victoria has begun the boom once more, as people flock to the borders of the only power in decades to face Victoria and win.
We literally enforced a free migration clause on them in an effort to undermine their demographic stability by having masses of vicks flee into our territory. So no, plenty of victorian citizen have fled and continue to flee.
 
No, because that is a profoundly stupid. Being an ordinary citizen of Victoria comes with regular near-starvation, your family being under constant surveillance, you yourself likely being conscripted into the military and getting told to charge a trench, with your unit taking heavy casualties and so on. Your suggestion requires ideology to be a kind of magic that makes people ignore their own suffering.

The answer is conscription. If you ingrain the fear of your entire family being slaughtered if you attempt to dodge the draft, a lot of people are going to be willing to be called up. And to that the threat of outside army burning down your home if they occupy it, plus a few promises of reform and you can get a decent compliance rate. Blackwell basically captured the state apparatus, so him being able to mobilize the peasantry is unsurprising.

This is factually untrue. Enough Victorians are fleeing the state to cause a second refugee wave for us.

We literally enforced a free migration clause on them in an effort to undermine their demographic stability by having masses of vicks flee into our territory. So no, plenty of victorian citizen have fled and continue to flee.
The population boom qoute does not actually say its coming from Victoria. It in fact seems to imply it's more coming from people in the massive jumble of statelets around us seeking a bigger stabler state to be safe in. How do we know Victoria is abiding by the free immigration clause? Didn't we sign the agreement with the full knowledge that Victoria was gonna do a Hitler and do their utmost best to technicality thier way out of or even outright ignore a number of the clauses of the treaty? Especially since there's very little willingness to start a second war before the 7 year ceasefire ends if they don't follow every letter of the treaty



Another thing that alot of you arnt considering is one if the big reasons Japan and the Nazis surrendered so easily is because the western allies were willing to be extremely lenient. A large number of war criminals were aloud to walk. Germany and Japan largely remained culturely intact. Japan was even allowed to maintain continuounce of goverment by keeping thier emperor. I would like to presume those are all things were are not willing to grant to Victoria? I would like to presume most of Victoria's higher ups and thier worst war criminals will be seeing the noose? Or at least a long life of nothing but prison concrete?

I would also like to presume we will be doing everything in our power to change Victoria's hyper oppressive culture and that there will be little of it that will be salvaged? All of those are things that will make the Victorian resistance far fiercer than both imperial Japan and the nazis.

Unless I am wrong about all that. Unless it's the general intention of the thread to allow all the war criminals to go free in exchange for a quicker easier peace. Please correct if I am.
 
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The population boom qoute does not actually say its coming from Victoria. It in fact seems to imply it's more coming from people in the massive jumble of statelets around us seeking a bigger stabler state to be safe in. How do we know Victoria is abiding by the free immigration clause? Didn't we sign the agreement with the full knowledge that Victoria was gonna do a Hitler and do their utmost best to technicality thier way out of or even outright ignore a number of the clauses of the treaty? Especially since there's very little willingness to start a second war before the 7 year ceasefire ends if they don't follow every letter of the treaty
We have quite a lot of people fleeing Victoria:
City Unrest: The colossal surge in refugees streaming into Commonwealth territory has led to some strong reactions from locals. In several cities across the country, friction between newcomers and older residents is starting to mount. In particular, this is centered in two cities: Detroit -- the primary point of entry for refugees fleeing the violence of the Victorian Civil War -- and Chicago -- the primary nexus for the majority of refugee flows. In Chicago, local figures and municipal politicians alike are describing the influx as akin to a tidal wave striking neighborhoods that have stood and struggled together for decades under the reality of Victorian influence. Millions of desperate people fleeing for their lives and settling anew are simply obliterating some of the existing neighborhoods under the sheer weight of their numbers. In Detroit, the description is more of an ugly wave of anger and rejection of the citizens of the state which nearly obliterated the city.
Bolded emphasis is mine here. We have millions, it's not only Victorians but they make up enough of the numbers that Detroit is evidentially looking at the entire refugee wave with unconcealed disdain.
 
Another thing that alot of you arnt considering is one if the big reasons Japan and the Nazis surrendered so easily is because the western allies were willing to be extremely lenient.
What the fuck are you talking about? No, actually, what are you talking about? Germany didn't surrender easily, almost the entire country had to be occupied before they actually surrendered (after the guy in charge, who wanted to burn everything down, committed suicide). Meanwhile, the Japanese high command literally only surrendered after they were nuked, with multiple cities being firebombed. A large factor in Japans decision to not surrender was the unwillingness of the USA to give any guarantees regarding the Japanese emperor.
Post war justice did see a number of people go free that really shouldn't have, but this would have been only known by fortune tellers in 1945. Both Japan and Germany unconditionally surrendered, so literally no guarantuees were given.
I would like to presume most of Victoria's higher ups and thier worst war criminals will be seeing the noose? Or at least a long life of nothing but prison concrete?

I would also like to presume we will be doing everything in our power to change Victoria's hyper oppressive culture and that there will be little of it that will be salvaged? All of those are things that will make the Victorian resistance far fiercer than both imperial Japan and the nazis.

Unless I am wrong about all that. If it's the general intention of the thread to allow all the war criminals to go free in exchange for a quicker easier peace. Please correct if I am.
I'm genuinely curious what makes you think the general thread is opposed to the punishment of high ranking criminals. Literally nothing of the previous discussion had anything to do with it, nor did anybody suggest pardoning people.
Also, I'm not agreeing to include you in the "we" here. Your suggestion about how to change Victorian culture include whatever cruel thing you currently want to do, with literally no thought given for any alternatives. Victoria might use chemical weapons? We clearly need to retaliate in kind. An insurgency happening in the occupied territory? We must kill more members of the adult male population, something that will clearly improve things in the long run and is obviously historically necessary. Somebody brings up an alternative that doesn't involve massacres? They must clearly not be dedicated to stomping out evil.
I don't know what to make of this except that you are strongly interested in acting out revenge fantasies in this setting.
 
However, it should be noted that all the "very killy fanatic" people we've so far come across are in the Victorian military, primarily their army units and the CMC-Crusader units, or veterans of same. The Victorian Army is a long-service force whose recruits remain under the colors for easily 20-30 years if not killed in action before mustering out. They are, yes, heavily indoctrinated.

That doesn't mean the underlying mainstream society is nearly as indoctrinated.

oh, we'll likely be forced to kill a large % of the Victorian Armed Forces, sure. Civilians? Well, there will be SOME indoctrinated ones, but ones they start to see they're actually eating more under us than under Victoria, that we're not stealing their daughters to be enslaved and sold, that we're not telling them they have to die...

They're luddites by forced indoctrinations, but give it time and "I can finally eat!" will be more important to them than "This food was farmed by devil machinery!"

Where is the army's of victorians fleeing rhe civil war? Oh there are none? All the victorians are staying loyal to one side or another of the civil war and basically none of them are fleeing? How about this example. Did the majority of the buffaloians take up our offer to evacuate when we pulled out? No? Under half of them did even after Victoria spent a whole month blaring non stop propaganda about how they will burn Buffalo to the ground? If that everything that happened in buffalo didnt sour the majority of Buffaloians on Victoria what do you think it would take?! Do you think we didnt feed them better and improve thier material conditions while we were in Buffalo? How well did it work?

They were sure that, given time, Victoria would have gathered even more soldiers and eventually beaten us. Yes, even if we won and killed thousands upon thousands of soldiers. Fear isn't exactly logical.

But still, Once Victoria Falls and there's no longer a government... well, most of the fear of them would go away. Sure, they might fear rebels and terrorists and insurgents, but that's not comparable to the systemic control their Inquisition had, where if you didn't donate enough to the state you were seen as disloyal.

There are literally right this second probably HUNDREDS of people WALKING the vast distance between Hondurous, El Salvador and other central American country's to the US border every single week. The most reliable form of transport is your own two legs. It's not as if a state in the middle of the civil war that just got its entire professional military annihalated can adequately guard all its numerous border of both external threats and preventing migration. For at least some Victorians simply walking over the border should be an option. Yet none our taking it.

Victorians are mostly uneducated. They wouldn't even know in which direction to walk, they'd risk being reported whenever they interacted with other civilians, they'd definitely be killed on the spot if they were found by the military, and they were indoctrinated into believing that outside of Victoria THINGS ARE WORSE.

Think of North Korea, and then remove most information that passed through the border in the last few decades: That starts to give an idea of how little Victorians know about their chances outside of the country.

and, as a matter of fact, there HAVE been far more refugees from Victoria after we won decisively, imposed demeaning conditions on them for a ceasefire, and they were unable to hide it.


Post war justice did see a number of people go free that really shouldn't have, but this would have been only known by fortune tellers in 1945. Both Japan and Germany unconditionally surrendered, so literally no guarantuees were given.
part of it was also that... well, there were some lessons learned from history there.

Germany was harshly punished after ww1, and then that was a big reason for Hitler's climb to power. So from my understanding the defeated powers in ww2 were treated more leniently EXACTLY to avoid that scenario repeating!

And, let's be fair: it worked. Germany, Japan and Italy didn't really start another war like that. There have been proxy wars during the Cold War, but NOTHING on the same level, at least not among the main players of ww2.



In regards to chemical weapons... yeah, if we fear them using against us, it might just be simpler to not only give enough gas masks to all our troops, but also to the cities we expect more at risk of being involved in the war.

We don't need to provide masks for our whole civilian population, but giving them to every citizen living on the border would be useful and potentially doable eventually.


I won't argue morality about us using chemical weapons. If they TRULY made a difference, I'd probably consider them here, but the truth is that Victorian Population is very dispersed, they don't have big cities for the most part, so there would be few targets, and we don't want not really have a reason to target civilains much, while their military will likely learn to prepare for it after at most a couple successful uses of it.

We're better off investing in everything else, really.
 
@Titanic Toxicity , I'm beginning to think that you either have difficulty picturing the reactions of normal human beings to stressful situations, or ignore what you know about human nature in service of supporting the narrative.* and in service of dismissing everyone else who doesn't buy into the narrative* as a weak faintheart who doesn't get it.

Much of what I might say has already been covered by others, but for another reason Victoria doesn't have people fleeing the civil war in vast numbers (it actually does, but here's one reason those numbers aren't vast-ER)...

Most of Victoria's territory has remained firmly under control of the Inquisitors. The Inquisitors are the people who manage Victoria's movement controls, and so key points of entry and exit are still watched by the secret police. The admittedly distracted secret police, but there's no concrete evidence that they've abandoned those posts entirely.

Furthermore, Victoria actually has relatively few points of entry and exit that are safe for ex-Victorian refugees. Not zero, but few. Consider that most of Victoria's land borders are with devastated territory that's been repeatedly raped, looted, and pillaged by their own armies as they pass back and forth on raiding expeditions. There are few large communities there with the resources to feed refugees, even temporarily. What communities do exist are deeply, deeply anti-Victorian and have a very large, very heavy axe to grind.

It is not safe to just leave Victoria's borders and walk in a random direction through Pennsylvania or what was formerly Canada. There are few resources supporting a traveler. Many of the people there will refuse aid to ex-Victorian refugees for hate's sake, or because they just can't afford it as they struggle to feed themselves. Some might outright murder the refugees either in a sort of revenge or because they believe the refugees to be spies. Victoria does a lot of spying, and where they spy, outsiders die.

As such, only a limited fraction of Victoria's population has realistic access to the means of escape. Some do. Most don't.
_______________________________

*[And the narrative in this case is something like "we're going to need lots of righteous violence against the Victorian civilian population when the bulk of them fight us to the death like a deranged horde of rape orcs because of course the average Victorian civilian man is like that!" Frankly, I'm deeply uncomfortable with it, it's disturbing to me how hard you're fighting for this, to the point of arguing with the QM to assert that your desired facts ("everyone but me is a faintheart who doesn't get it and we need to be ready to slaughter millions") are true.]
 
@Titanic Toxicity I think the words of one of our governors, and well, presidents is useful here: "Trust but verify."

Wait no, I think "Speak softly and carry a big stick" is better for this situation.

Anyway, I think Buffalo is a good example of what to expect, cuz, that's the Vic city y'all liberated right? Once you dealt with the Wish.com Taliban, the city was compliant to the point where you could hold a democratic election. Seems like Lind's Rumford's "4th generation warfare" expected those suicidal geezers to actually drive y'all out by themselves. Never mind that actual insurgencies have to stay alive long enough for the invaders to eventually get tired and call it quits. Anyway, once they were out of the way, the rest of the citizens were chill, just still pretty traumatized. And hey, if you have to retreat, it seems like a good chunk of them are gonna join you!

TL;DR, relax, just don't be the "orcs" that the Vics try to paint you as, and people will be eating out of your hands soon enough. And if you run into any insurgents, then you can just shoot them! See, no harm done!
 
To briefly interrupt this discussion, I just realized two things. One, that the vote is still open and two, that I never did actually vote.

[X] Plan I Got 77 Problems
 
All good points, but at the end of the day I think the answer could be out a lot more simply.

(A) Victorians who don't join the military or Church do not travel. It takes a lot of courage and/or desperation to venture into the unknown.

(B) Victoria is a Holy City on a Hill surrounded by satanic orcs. Even if things are this bad here, the rest of America must be indescribably worse.

(C) Both sides of the Civil War have been running around conscripting every able-bodied man they can.
The people left are the women and children. Victorian woman and children.

It takes a certain kind of desperation to venture into the unknown towards Hell without protection and wearing a metaphorical flashing neon sign declaring "please rape and murder me".
 
Germany was harshly punished after ww1, and then that was a big reason for Hitler's climb to power. So from my understanding the defeated powers in ww2 were treated more leniently EXACTLY to avoid that scenario repeating!

And, let's be fair: it worked. Germany, Japan and Italy didn't really start another war like that. There have been proxy wars during the Cold War, but NOTHING on the same level, at least not among the main players of ww2.

Ha ha. No. Germany was not more leniently treated.

Germany had to pay reparations, was looted down to the bedrock by all sides, was occupied, her people used as non-voluntary labour by East and West after the war (I could point you to a few things built by German PoWs after the war ended near where I live), had many of her leaders executed, imprisoned or forbidden from holding office again, had military restrictions placed on her (at first, no militaries at all, then two militaries that were thoroughly integrated into the command and control systems of their occupiers) and constitutions written if not by the hands of the occupiers, at least written by plausibly deniable ghost writers by the occupiers and with their "friendly advice and support". Further Germany lost significant territory, was forced to host refugees from foreign nations and the lost territories due to the "Orderly transfer of German Populations" (as the Potsdam agreement put it).

Compare that to the post WW1 settlement where Germany was allowed to keep an independent army of small, but nonetheless existing size, besides the figurehead at the top (who was removed by the expedient of just being reluctant to make peace as long as Willy was still seated on his throne and the Germans did the rest) the leaders during the war years not only faced no censure, but were allowed to continue to have significant political influence, the country was only partially occupied and only for a few years, the reparations only paid for a few years before infighting between the victors ended that as a practical consideration (and the inflated reparations pushed by Lloyd George as an election stunt, which tacked on British military pensions to the bill, were never paid, nor did anyone seriously consider that they should be repaid, even the British), looting would mainly be confined to German shipping and Germany significantly would retain her pre-war intellectual property, there were no efforts to dictate how the German government worked (Nazi conspiracy theories aside, Weimar was a German creation with no "help" from outside). Territorial losses were in the main limited to areas of the country where Germans were not the majority and the local population in the main did not want to be German (and in some disputed areas the victors even gave people the option to stay a part of Germany).

The idea that the Versailles treaty of 1919 was harsher than the treaty of Paris of 1947 is utter nonsense, and a monument to the success of those who, to either hide their crimes or justify new ones, manipulated historical memory so totally that this kind of take isn't even considered spicy.

The Nazis may have lost WW2, but their brain-bugs march on.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
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