Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

No i mean it is undermining holdens intentions. If he didn't want those restrictions there he wouldn't have put them there. The system is designed to lack impact and removing restrictions goes against that system.
Lack impact?

You can make some wild stuff, and you can make broadly usable stuff. You just have to pay the price for it.

It doesn't lack impact unless you're measuring against the ability to generate industrial quantities of items or design things to be built by others. Which were never on the table in the first place.

Holden was trying to avoid armies of power armored muggles, but that's not the same as the system lacking impact.

I genuinely don't understand why would we need that many skills.
What rules are you assuming this would use???
That was an exaggeration. What I was referring to was the sphere limits of the base system. Yes you want to change those, but in a poorly constructed way.

Reagents needing to be typed means or individual projects are still busted, but we have to screw around with not being able to build what we want with what we have.


The vaccine would be a trinket and be usable by anyone.

And god crafting would probably be just a spirit5/prime5 and addtions depending on the god.
Splendors and prodigies could do the same if it's possible in the first place. It'd just be expensive and we couldn't make a lot of them on a practical level.
Given our experience in car making this is a bit arguable.
To an extent this is an artifact of the system, but it's still true. Molly has academics 1, computers 0, science 0, technology 2.

If you ask her to do crazy car related things she gets bullshit magic support. If you ask her to document how it works or apply things she invented for another purpose she's nearly incapable of it.

This is the reverse side of the arbitrary lines drawn by exalted conceptual narrative physics based dickery. Sometimes you can apply arbitrary force directly to the jawline of a god, sometimes you run into arbitrary limits on your powers.
Asking why she can make super vehicles and not perform say the material science research implied in her work is like asking why her melee excellency doesn't apply to brawl. Surely some amount of that perfect body control is transferrable even if it's not as effective right?

So, my point is that this is actually one charm about bringing something new into the world, not dredging up degraded copies of past glories.
That's fair, but I stand by my basic point.

You're doing this stuff with exalted bullshit. The charm was never about other people and what they can do with it. It's about the exalt making things.
 
Holden was trying to avoid armies of power armored muggles, but that's not the same as the system lacking impact.
Societal impact i meant.
Reagents needing to be typed means or individual projects are still busted, but we have to screw around with not being able to build what we want with what we have
Our individual porjects wouldn't be buestef because 1 the m20 has inflated the sphere requirements for every thing quite a lot. And unless we spend weeks on it won't be that busted.
Also we do want stuff that is worth spending the time on, like even holdens system is possible to make a strong item, so it doesn't remove that aspect of your criticism.

Not having the correct regent is the limitation, it means we spend AP finding and acquiring it.
Splendors and prodigies could do the same if it's possible in the first place. It'd just be expensive and we couldn't make a lot of them on a practical level.
Not much of a vaccine then is it.
 
As far as I remember the books, this is wrong. Dresden Files magic is manipulating natural forces, like gravity or heat, or entropy, but very rarely a conceptual "this is now a solid" effect.
The fifth(necromancy) and sixth(time travel) Laws of Magic make it clear that magic only obeys physics of its own will.

In the very first book, the starter villain Victor Sells deploys magical scorpion drones that are the size of normal scorpions when idle, but when activated grow in size and mass and have the strength and toughness to punch through elevator doors.

In Fool Moon, shapeshifters remain sapient even after squeezing their sapience into the neurology of lower animals. A personality hosted on the 1.5kg of neural mass in a human skull cant physically run on the ~120 grams of brain in a 40kg grey wolf.
Even assuming proportionate scaling to an 80kg mass, thats only 240 grams of brain.

In the same book, Dresden throws an energy beam beefy enough to blast a five hundred pound loup garou through the outside wall of a police station, across a street, and through multiple brick walls on the other side of the street without the thermal bloom of that much energy turning the police station, if not the city block into a raging inferno.

In Dead Beat, we see freshly dead, necromantically animated zombies, with human muscles and a vanilla human skeletal system, keeping up with an accelerating car for at least a while without wrecking their musculoskeletal system.
And that was after one tore off the rear engine hood barehanded.

I could keep going.


Dresdenverse magic only pays lip service to driving within the lanes of natural law as long as it suits it to do so.
As soon as it doesnt? It goes off the rails.
Hard.


As far as we have seen additional successes start adding qualitative changes. So a 30+ successes knife will probably utilize kazimir effect to create space warping effect along its edge to maintain monoatomic sharpness or something along those lines.
QM has answered this.

No, that's not how it works. Dresden made a conscious choice to come in contact with the coin - that was free will, and very much in tune with how Dresden Files loosely interprets "free choice". You can't, for example, shoot a coin into someone's back at supersonic speeds to implant a shadow of a fallen into them, or place it onto someone's body when they are in a coma.
No, thats how it works.
Almost everytime we see a free Coin in canon, they seem to actively move to set themselves up to make contact with someone.

We interpret this differently. Dresden "picking up" the coin when trying to protect Michael's son is essentially the same "choice under duress" as Ivy picking up a coin to avoid further torture.
I dont agree.
He didnt pick up the Coin, he placed his hand down on it as a block between Harry Junior and the coin.
It was only after he moved the kid that he identified the Coin, picked it up and went home.

Furthermore, you can freely pick up a Coin as long as you dont actually make skin contact.
Wear gloves. Use a hanky.
Picking it up isnt the issue. Its the skin contact.

If you pick up the Coin and your glove tears, you are in for a Bad Time.

Yes. It all points at them not caring about long term, if they succeed in short and middle one. Taking into account outsider involvement, I think the end game can be guessed - apocalypse and collapse of the Outer Gates.
That is at odds with their characterization in the books.

Its certainly at odds with their attempts in this AU thus far to prevent the Pathfinders fiddling with bound godmonsters.
They want to rule the setting, not destroy it.
And as far as we know, not invite in competitors.

I would maintain that overall it's still a net benefit. Assuming we spend three months training them (let's say AP per charm use, 6 AP total including malcoffee) - that's 190 XP. The charm allows to raise Physical Attributes, Manipulation, and Alertness, Brawl, Intimidation, Larceny, Melee, or Occult Abilities. No Ability can be raised higher than that of their Infernal instructor.

We can discard Larceny, Alertness and Brawl since we are sh*t at those. Assuming average of 2 for every attribute, that's 8+12+16=36 XP to raise an attribute to 5, so 144 XP to get Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Manipulation 5. This leaves us with 46 XP. Assuming 0 points in an ability, that's 3+2+4+6+8=23 XP. So we can raise Melee and Occult, or Intimidation and Occult to 5. So, at most 4 months to max out every available stat for this charm. After even one month you can have 70 XP, which is probably 2 attributes maxed out, or Occult + 1 attribute (dexterity or stamina for survival).

I think that's well worth it.
All of that doesnt matter if said heavy hitter can leverage that social to intimidate or con or persuade those people.
Do the math; someone with GOOD mortal social(Attribute 3 + Ability 3) going up against DPoE ( -2DC)?
Is suddenly rolling at DC8 instead of DC6 for even the most basic social stuff.

We have done it to the Red Court ourselves; see our encounter with LeBlanc.
Its just making an army for someone else to steal.
And thats not counting the bottleneck of how many people you can train at a time.


Im not saying its not useful; that would definitely not be true. I have books with bakemono builds.
I am saying that given who our enemies are, its a lot more hazardous than you appear to be acknowledging.


I'm familiar. That stuff is expensive to make and has flaws. Note that mixed attacks break the immunity.
Not for an Exalt apparently. Not at 1 dot.

Wizards doing it is one thing, every idiot having items to do it for them is another.
Only if said idiot has Enchantment 3.
Most path sorcerers dont spec into high-tier Enchantment, unlike wizards for whom its part and parcel of how they do magic.
And under Sorcerer Revised's 6-dot rules for Paths, Path 3/4 is a solid Expert, if not master of his craft.


To make something like this?
Your Path mage would require Path Sorcery: Enchantment 3, an appropriately equipped Workshop/Lab with the Resources Background to keep it supplied and stocked, the right recipe, ??? design and crafting time, and another 3-9 days enchantment time.

That is not an easy set of criteria to fulfill on Earth, where most sorcerers are individual artisans with no shared support structure and sorcery is a calling that you pursue in addition to whatever else you do for a living.
Theoretically possible does not mean plausible.
 
As far as I remember the books, this is wrong. Dresden Files magic is manipulating natural forces, like gravity or heat, or entropy, but very rarely a conceptual "this is now a solid" effect.
I'd add to what uju32 said - it's not Dresden Files magic that has those limitations. It's specifically White Council supported magic that grew out of something like Roman School of Magic and traditions. Most supernatural creatures have their own flavors of magic with their own limitations and advantages.

And we know for a fact that magic traditions and spells available to an average caster drift over time with changes in political, religious, scientific and other developments. White Council probably just managed to ride the wave of Roman conquest in their time and got to establish itself as the main player on the block for human side, squashing most other traditions that used alternative approaches.
 
On the matter of TTC and arcane crafting now that I have woken up, the tools do apply though not in their entirety. It very much depends on what you are doing and the ratio of mundane crafting to sorcerous rite and Essence Imbuing. With alchemy you are never not using your tools since that is the material science of magic, it is (intentionally) as grounded as magical workings get. If you are on the other hand trying to make an Emanation, basically a bespoke demon TTC is going to merely double your progress

On the matter of the Coins and gloves given the care with which those are wrapped in sanctified cloth I think you would need specially prepared gloves not to get the connection though mechanically normal gloves would give you a willpower roll to avoid it. That feels like a balanced approach.
 
Holden was trying to avoid armies of power armored muggles, but that's not the same as the system lacking impact.
But it is. It very sharply limits the scale of impact an exalt can have. Yes, you can make a bolo and drive it through an enemy's castle. But you can't have anything that reaches beyond your immediate grasp, like, I don't know, an automated manufacturing system, or a public teleport network, because as soon as you are not there, it would stop working, and because it can't be replicated.

It's all about flashily killing individual monsters, not curing society's ills and restoring / improving / remaking reality.
That's fair, but I stand by my basic point.

You're doing this stuff with exalted bullshit. The charm was never about other people and what they can do with it. It's about the exalt making things.
Final comment about this. Exalted are about changing / affecting the world, not navel-gazing enlightenment. Super science is about affecting the world and creating the the tools to affect the world. Making the whole system so exalt cannot meaningfully affect large scale change by making tools seems entirely counter to what exalts are.
I dont agree.
He didnt pick up the Coin, he placed his hand down on it as a block between Harry Junior and the coin.
It was only after he moved the kid that he identified the Coin, picked it up and went home.

Furthermore, you can freely pick up a Coin as long as you dont actually make skin contact.
Wear gloves. Use a hanky.
Picking it up isnt the issue. Its the skin contact.

If you pick up the Coin and your glove tears, you are in for a Bad Time.
It's a very fine line, but he made a free will choice to come in contact / pick up the coin with his hand knowing (in principle) the circumstances. That's free will choice. It's a fey-like "fine print matters" definition of free choice, but it's there.
That is at odds with their characterization in the books.

Its certainly at odds with their attempts in this AU thus far to prevent the Pathfinders fiddling with bound godmonsters.
They want to rule the setting, not destroy it.
And as far as we know, not invite in competitors.
Not at all, if we remember that those beyond the Outer Gates are not necessarily united.
All of that doesnt matter if said heavy hitter can leverage that social to intimidate or con or persuade those people.
Do the math; someone with GOOD mortal social(Attribute 3 + Ability 3) going up against DPoE ( -2DC)?
Is suddenly rolling at DC8 instead of DC6 for even the most basic social stuff.

We have done it to the Red Court ourselves; see our encounter with LeBlanc.
Its just making an army for someone else to steal.
And thats not counting the bottleneck of how many people you can train at a time.


Im not saying its not useful; that would definitely not be true. I have books with bakemono builds.
I am saying that given who our enemies are, its a lot more hazardous than you appear to be acknowledging.
Before you argue this - have we ever observed anything like DPoE from anyone other than ourselves? Ie any sort of broad (i.e. not keyed to specific type of Creature of Darkness, like a whampire) social power that indiscriminately affects Creatures of Darkness? I don't remember anything like that.

Beyond that - see my suggestions for peaches of immortality. We would need to go out and kill a godmonster of some kind, but otherwise it seems a fairly good way to rapidly boost minions. And they wouldn't be creatures of darkness.

I'd add to what uju32 said - it's not Dresden Files magic that has those limitations. It's specifically White Council supported magic that grew out of something like Roman School of Magic and traditions. Most supernatural creatures have their own flavors of magic with their own limitations and advantages.

And we know for a fact that magic traditions and spells available to an average caster drift over time with changes in political, religious, scientific and other developments. White Council probably just managed to ride the wave of Roman conquest in their time and got to establish itself as the main player on the block for human side, squashing most other traditions that used alternative approaches.
And I could keep going on and on about Dresden altering gravity, or redistributing heat, and wizards being unable to fly like we do because that would require strong winds and that's inconvenient to do. Magic is not a conceptual "I impose given state of existence upon reality with my will". Magic does care about energy in some manner - otherwise Victor Sells wouldn't need to empower his magic with lightning storms - there's some manner of equivalency between their energy and magical "energy" (as the measure of the ability to affect the world). Scale clearly matters, energy clearly matters in some way. Entropy might or might not matter.

We are using different definitions when disputing "DF magic doesn't care about physics" point.
 
COMMENTARY
=Cmon Lash. He's kept you and your progenitor as a secret for a couple years, even during the year plus that he lived with Thomas. And he's still keeping Thomas a secret, too. From everyone.
Even someone who knows him well underestimates his capability for subterfuge.


=Ebenezar didnt mention the Gray Council to Dresden until after LaFortier was killed and Cristos took his place, at the end of Turn Coat. He certainly didnt try to actively recruit him this early. Wonder what changed, and what is giving Lash the idea that the WC is on the brink of shattering.

Perhaps it was when Molly handed Gorfels over; dude's almost certainly dead, but we have no idea what he spilled before he was executed. Or maybe he was murdered before he could be made to talk, and the access required raised alarm bells.


=That said, Dresden is still a Warden regional subcommander for the White Council. He has access to internal secrets. He cant hold two loyalties that way, and its a horrible idea to poach a senior military commander of another nationstate you arent at war with. And you know that Dresden would not go for it.

Lash should know its a horrible idea. Just as she should know Molly would offer support regardless of formal agreements.
So she's either freaking out for some reason, or scents opportunity for some chaos.
Molly reads sincerity, and Lash specifically mentions Broken Seeker.


=So its entirely possible that its Seeker's visit to Chicago, ostensibly to eat Dresden, that has her spooked.
Huh. When Seeker talked about nibbling on parts of Dresden's soul, this might have been what was being referenced: an opportunity to try to eat the Shadow of a Fallen.

Which would be very rare loot for a naagloshii, assuming willingness to aggro a Fallen.
And that its even possible; since Lash can die, the possibility may exist.


=This would raise the question of how Arianna knew that Dresden had a Shadow, though
The only people who knew about it were Nicodemus, who dropped the Coin. His inner circle. Michael, who saw him pick it up. Billy and Georgia Borden, who Dresden told. And Quintus Cassius, who ran with the Kemmlerites and died last year.

So maybe Quintus sold information to the Reds?


=Going to note that Lash doesnt appear to know that McCoy is Dresden's grandfather, even though she knows that Thomas is his brother and Maggie LeFay his mother.
It does question how long Lasciel has been out of the loop, since Nicodemus claims to have known Margaret LeFay.


ATB, BSM, but no DPoE.
If Lash is a Creature of Darkness, then she is weighty enough that DPoE doesnt apply to her. The equivalent of an ancient vampire or elder Black Spiral Dancer at a minimum, I guess.

Lash appears to have a Manipulation + Subterfuge pool of 9.
And a Charisma + Empathy pool of 10.
That's Charisma 5, Empathy 5, Manipulation 4 or higher, Subterfuge 4 or higher.

We're looking at near-max human dicepools; she's probably Appearance 5 as well.
*checks the soulgaze scene again*
Yup, Appearance 4/5.


*Rolls for it* Let me put it this way, a sliver of an angel is still a sliver of an angel even if it be writ in mortal minds, that understanding itself is divine. If you embody that into the work of Exalted Craft you are likely to get something interesting
Yes! For Science! Do it! What does this metaphysics do? Yes YES!*

*The sound of Molly's Inner Twilight Caste Solar :V
Huh. The dice certainly have expressed their own opinions here. :V
Im guessing .......potentially a Liminal Exalt. High end interpretation.
Low end would be a Nephilim; scion of an Angel.

Honestly, I think the real reason Molly wouldn't do my high school gag-punishment is that letting Lash be around Molly's classmates / friends would represent a substantial level of trust in someone who's a superhuman manipulator. The coin would be far more easily safeguarded, really.
To be fair, looking at Lash's revealed mental/social stat pool put her at or near peak human.Not superhuman.
Which makes sense, since a superhuman manipulator in Dresden's head would likely have have had its own way by now, stubborn or not.

Besides, Lasciel is probably not the sort of person to make Shadows with angelic lore that have the stats to potentially be a threat to her anyway. She wouldnt be Fallen if she was.


Asking with the Crown is one thing, but asking Lash should be okay, right?
Oh sure, that has nothing to do with the oath.
Eh.
Depends on if she would know. Its been previously established that Lash does not have access to everything Laciel does, as witnessed by the fact that she didnt know what Molly was when we first met her.

Lasciel basically edited her down for what was relevant to the job of tempting a wizard, and would fit on the limited OS of a fraction of a human's life force. She's what Eclipse Phase would call a beta fork.
I think TTC is meant to work for mundane crafting not magical, but I will have to check in the morning, it is past midnight for me right now.
TTC works for anything that involves creating, modifying or repairing (x5 speed), but works best for stuff thats complicated and mechanical(x10 speed). Cooking, coding a program and making explosives are all cited as examples.
There's no exceptions for magic use.
 
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Perhaps it was when Molly handed Gorfels over; dude's almost certainly dead, but we have no idea what he spilled before he was executed. Or maybe he was murdered before he could be made to talk, and the access required raised alarm bells.
It's Molly in general and Dresden's handling of Molly in particular. He had to learn a hell of a lot very quickly, and right now knows much more about how the world works than he did in canon at this point. For example, he learned about the Outer Gates, the role of Winter in guarding the Outer Gates, and also a lot about Winter's secrets. He also got a far better understanding of how much he doesn't know and is probably working on rectifying that - which is where Ebenezar comes in. He, having read Molly's book and having had a chance to study both Molly and Lydia up close, Molly in laboratory conditions even, likely has higher Occult rating than in canon. In addition to all that he now knows how to circumvent techbane - almost certainly a (near) unique knowledge among White Council. Personality-wise, he had to quickly adapt to Molly's BS, which increased his maturity. We might not have worked on this deliberately, but our mere presence almost certainly accelerated and derailed Harry's professional development by years, if not decades.
its entirely possible that its Seeker's visit to Chicago, ostensibly to eat Dresden, that has her spooked.
Huh. When Seeker talked about nibbling on parts of Dresden's soul, this might have been what was being referenced: an opportunity to try to eat the Shadow of a Fallen.

Which would be very rare loot for a naagloshii, assuming willingness to aggro a Fallen.
And that its even possible; since Lash can die, the possibility may exist.
This is possible, but the next bit doesn't follow from this. Arianna needn't have known about Lash for BS to learn about her through observation of Dresden. He had time.
what is giving Lash the idea that the WC is on the brink of shattering.
Merlin was nearly freaking out when he saw and somewhat understood what our Kingdom represented. Lash, having the memories stretching at least as far as bronze age, at least as good of an understanding of human nature and society, and a better understanding what we actually represent and what our kingdom is, has more reason to worry about WC. If our kingdom starts to actively with Earth's magical practitioners, it represent grave, existential threat to White Council it has never faced and has no institutional way of handling - a viable, attractive alternative of how things (magic, society, law handling, etc) can be done. We are very nearly the canonical example of what an OCP is:
"An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop. The usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbours were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass . . . when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests. That was an Outside Context Problem; so was the suitably up-teched version that happened to whole planetary civilisations when somebody like the Affront chanced upon them first rather than, say, the Culture."
We are the "bristling lump of iron brass" from Merlin's perspective, and Lash, understanding or guessing how Merlin and others in the White Council, both senior members and not, might react to this, is hedging her bets. We are likely to get defectors. We are likely to get detractors.

And all of that before factoring in what Lash might understand of Molly the nascent Primordial.
 
=This would raise the question of how Arianna knew that Dresden had a Shadow, though
The only people who knew about it were Nicodemus, who dropped the Coin. His inner circle. Michael, who saw him pick it up. Billy and Georgia Borden, who Dresden told. And Quintus Cassius, who ran with the Kemmlerites and died last year.

Interesting theory... That is a valid question to ask of Arianna's head just saying.
 
Before you argue this - have we ever observed anything like DPoE from anyone other than ourselves? Ie any sort of broad (i.e. not keyed to specific type of Creature of Darkness, like a whampire) social power that indiscriminately affects Creatures of Darkness? I don't remember anything like that.

Beyond that - see my suggestions for peaches of immortality. We would need to go out and kill a godmonster of some kind, but otherwise it seems a fairly good way to rapidly boost minions. And they wouldn't be creatures of darkness.
Yes. Kukulkan in Changes.
Dresden meets the Red King at Chitchen Itza said:
Then the Red King lowered it and turned to face me. And I was forcibly reminded that nuclear warheads come in relatively small packages. He made absolutely no threatening gesture. He didn't even glare.
He didn't need to.
The pressure of his eyes was like nothing I had ever felt before—empty darkness that struck at me like a physical blow, that made me feel as if I had to physically lean away from him to keep from being drawn forward into that vacuum and lost to the void. I was suddenly reminded that I was alone, that I had none of my tools, that I was involved in matters way over my head, and that my outfit looked ridiculous.
And all of it was simply his physical presence. It was far too huge for the little body it came in, too large to be contained by the stone of this temple, a kind of psychic body heat that loomed so large that only a fool would not be instantly aware of how generally insignificant he was in the greater scheme of the universe. I felt my resolve being eroded, even as I stood there, and I clenched my jaw and looked away.

The Red King chuckled. He said something. Alamaya answered him, then rose and came to kneel down at his feet, facing me.
The slave on the altar remained in place, crying quietly.
I could hear another, smaller voice coming from behind the altar. Holy crap. I couldn't have cut this one much closer. I focused on my daughter's voice for a moment, small and sweet—and suddenly I didn't feel nearly so small. I just felt angry.
The Red King spoke.
I dont know it its a panspecific thing.
But its definitely an ability that we have IC evidence for.

And I could keep going on and on about Dresden altering gravity, or redistributing heat, and wizards being unable to fly like we do because that would require strong winds and that's inconvenient to do. Magic is not a conceptual "I impose given state of existence upon reality with my will". Magic does care about energy in some manner - otherwise Victor Sells wouldn't need to empower his magic with lightning storms - there's some manner of equivalency between their energy and magical "energy" (as the measure of the ability to affect the world). Scale clearly matters, energy clearly matters in some way. Entropy might or might not matter.

We are using different definitions when disputing "DF magic doesn't care about physics" point.
Like I said?
Dresdenverse magic pays lip service to physics until it decides it doesnt want to anymore.
Then it stops doing so.

Ferrovax, Odin and Mother Winter have variously immobilized or crushed Dresden just by sheer magic will.
The Spear of Destiny and the placard in Battle Grounds both worked by imposing their own rules on reality.
The plague curse that Nicodemus tried to spread in Death Masks had nothing to do with normal disease patterns.

Magic is not a conceptual "I impose given state of existence upon reality with my will". Magic does care about energy in some manner - otherwise Victor Sells wouldn't need to empower his magic with lightning storms - there's some manner of equivalency between their energy and magical "energy" (as the measure of the ability to affect the world). Scale clearly matters, energy clearly matters in some way. Entropy might or might not matter.

We are using different definitions when disputing "DF magic doesn't care about physics" point.
Ghost Story chapter 47:
I gripped the wooden grain of my staff, recalling the feelings that had surged through me when I had summoned and bound the Lecters. I called on my memories one more time. I called up the ache of sore muscles after a hard workout, and the sheer physical joy of my body in motion during a run, walking down the street, sinking into a hot bath, swimming through cool water, stroking over the softness of another body beside mine. I thought of my favorite old T-shirt, a plain, black cotton one with 98% CHIMPANZEE written on the chest in white typeset letters. I thought of the creak of my old leather cowboy boots, the comfort of a good pair of jeans. The scent of a wood-smoked grill drifting into my nose when I was hungry, the way my mouth would water and my stomach would growl. I thought of my old Mickey Mouse alarm clock going off too early in the morning, and groaning out of bed to go to work. I remembered the smell of a favorite old book's pages when I opened them again, and the smell of smoldering motor oil, a staple feature of my old Blue Beetle. I remembered the softness of Susan's lips against mine. I remembered my daughter's slight, warm weight in my arms, her exhausted body as limp as a rag doll's. I remembered the way tears felt, sliding free of my eyes, the annoying blockage of congestion when I had a cold, and a thousand other things—little things, minor things, desperately important things.
You know. Life.
Then I did something fairly nutty, as I gathered the memory for what I was to attempt. I just uttered the spell in plain, old English. The energy seared through my thoughts in a way that would have been damaging to a living wizard, maybe fatal. It seemed appropriate to use it here, and I released whatever power I had left, clothing it in garments of memory, as I murmured the most basic of ideas, the foundation of words and of reality.
"Be."

My universe shook. There was a vast rushing sound, rising to a crescendo that would have made a sane person flinch and crouch down to find shelter. And in a sudden burst of silence, I stood firmly in cold, dank dimness. The cold raised gooseflesh on my skin.
Shadows had swollen to cover almost all the details around me, and no wonder they had.
All the candles and lamps that lit the chamber had burned down to little pinpoints.
I tapped Boz on the shoulder and said, "Hey, gorgeous."
His face twisted in complete surprise, turning to stare in blank incomprehension at mine.
I winked at him, and whispered, "Boo."
And then I slugged him with my quarterstaff.

It hurt. I mean, more than the shock of impact that lanced up through my wrists. I was solid again, at least for a moment. I was myself again, and with my remembered body came a fountain of remembered pain. My legs and knees creaked and ached, something that was a natural progression for a big guy, a kind of background pain that I never noticed until it was gone and then back again. I hadn't exactly stretched out, and I'd socked Boz with everything I had. I'd torn a muscle in my back doing it. My head wasn't clear, suddenly riddled with a catalog of muscle twitches, physically painful hunger, and old injuries I'd just learned to ignore, now suddenly screaming in fresh agony.
I've said before that only the dead feel no pain, but I'd never spoken from experience before. Pain used as a weapon is one thing. Personal pain, the kind that comes from just living our lives, is something else.
Pain isn't a lot of fun, at least not for most folks, but it is utterly unique to life. Pain—physical, emotional, and otherwise—is the shadow cast by everything you want out of life, the alternative to the result you were hoping for, and the inevitable creator of strength. From the pain of our failures we learn to be better, stronger, greater than what we were before. Pain is there to tell us when we've done something badly—it's a teacher, a guide, one that is always there to both warn us of our limitations and challenge us to overcome them.
For something no one likes, pain does us a whole hell of a lot of good.
Stepping back into my old self and moving instantly into violent motion hurt like hell.
It.
Was.
Amazing.
I let out a whoop of sheer adrenaline and mad joy as Boz tumbled back over Mort's recumbent form.
"Oof!" Mort shouted. "Dresden!"
That was Ghost Dresden literally willing himself a physical body at the climax of Ghost Story so he could physically intervene in the ongoing fight.

Magic only cares about rules when its convenient.
When it isnt, it tells physics, biology and all the rest to fuck off.
And they do.
 
I dont know it its a panspecific thing.
But its definitely an ability that we have IC evidence for.
Ok. So,Red King, glutted on the blood of gods, Death (I remember now), Dragons, Mothers... If that's the kind of entities we are talking about, why does it matter that they have DPoE? They would steamrolls almost anyone who isn't us anyway.
Like I said?
Dresdenverse magic pays lip service to physics until it decides it doesnt want to anymore.
Then it stops doing so.
We are using very different definition of what physics is.
 
@DragonParadox regarding Arcana design, a couple of questions if you don't mind:
1) 3 dot Arcana are listed as having 21 freebie point. 4 and 5 dot Arcana are listed as having 15, despite every other part being a straight upgrade from lesser dot versions. Is this correct, or is this a typo? If a typo, then in what direction - do 4 and 5 dot Arcana have 21 freebie point, or does 3 dot Arcana have15?

2) Are Emanation Arcana, being small gods natively capable of magic, or do we need to buy a 5 dot hedge magic merit?

3) If we are building a magic capable Arcana, are we limited to paths Molly knows, or could we, for example, build an Arcana capable of using hellfire Path at some level, despite Molly herself not having dots in it? To me it seems reasonable, otherwise the same argument should follow for Abilities, or might follow at least.

4) Ephemera and Emanations need to be built in a Dragon's Nest using an anchor item. How does this mesh with making house gods like Bane? Do we use sympathetic magic with a stone from the house's wall/ foundation? Or do we prepare the manifestation to near completion and then activate it at the target house? Or some other option?
 
@DragonParadox regarding Arcana design, a couple of questions if you don't mind:
1) 3 dot Arcana are listed as having 21 freebie point. 4 and 5 dot Arcana are listed as having 15, despite every other part being a straight upgrade from lesser dot versions. Is this correct, or is this a typo? If a typo, then in what direction - do 4 and 5 dot Arcana have 21 freebie point, or does 3 dot Arcana have15?

2) Are Emanation Arcana, being small gods natively capable of magic, or do we need to buy a 5 dot hedge magic merit?

3) If we are building a magic capable Arcana, are we limited to paths Molly knows, or could we, for example, build an Arcana capable of using hellfire Path at some level, despite Molly herself not having dots in it? To me it seems reasonable, otherwise the same argument should follow for Abilities, or might follow at least.

4) Ephemera and Emanations need to be built in a Dragon's Nest using an anchor item. How does this mesh with making house gods like Bane? Do we use sympathetic magic with a stone from the house's wall/ foundation? Or do we prepare the manifestation to near completion and then activate it at the target house? Or some other option?
  1. I think that is a typo
  2. They need the merit if you want them to use magic as mortals do, basically you are building the 'organ' that does that into them
  3. You can, but you need someone who has that path up to the needed level or more involved in the crafting
  4. You would have to prepare most of it in the dragonstone and then trigger it at the location
 
It's Molly in general and Dresden's handling of Molly in particular. He had to learn a hell of a lot very quickly, and right now knows much more about how the world works than he did in canon at this point. For example, he learned about the Outer Gates, the role of Winter in guarding the Outer Gates, and also a lot about Winter's secrets. He also got a far better understanding of how much he doesn't know and is probably working on rectifying that - which is where Ebenezar comes in. He, having read Molly's book and having had a chance to study both Molly and Lydia up close, Molly in laboratory conditions even, likely has higher Occult rating than in canon. In addition to all that he now knows how to circumvent techbane - almost certainly a (near) unique knowledge among White Council. Personality-wise, he had to quickly adapt to Molly's BS, which increased his maturity. We might not have worked on this deliberately, but our mere presence almost certainly accelerated and derailed Harry's professional development by years, if not decades.
Doubt it.
Yes, he knows more than he did at this point in canon. But thats not the same thing as the level of capability he had when Turn Coat happened, which was around four years of teaching, learning and experience.

He also doesnt know how to circumvent techbane.

I will remind you that its still November 2006. Barely five months have passed IC for the other characters in the quest.
There's been a lot of information, and a lot of action dumped on Harry in that time.
There are only so many hours in the day for a private investigator who's also a serving military commander.

This is possible, but the next bit doesn't follow from this. Arianna needn't have known about Lash for BS to learn about her through observation of Dresden. He had time.
Hard disagree on this.

Its the Shadow of a Fallen Angel.
An infiltrator and seducer, with all the requirements to keep a low profile and not give itself away. The protections that a Fallen can presumably layer on beta forks spawned from its own substance are going to be up there.

Corpsetaker canonically made it partway into Dresden's head and didnt see or sense Lash in Dead Beat.
Neither did canon Molly during her soulgaze at the end of Proven Guilty. The only external actor that did was his dead father's spirit, which visited him multiple times during Dead Beat, and talked to him in a safe space where Lash and Lasciel couldnt eavesdrop.

I mean, Marcone had Thorned Namshiel's coin for *checks* six years, starting around the end of Small Favor.
Dresden didnt know, and he had been in his presence multiple times. Mab didnt know, and she'd had both diplomatic and business meetings with Marcone in this time period, including a plot to fuck Nicodemus over.

Angelic power, even Fallen angelic power, is Serious Business.

Furthermore, do recall that naagloshii have their own obvious metaphysical mass and signature.
They cant hide themselves from wizards; if they could, there'd be a lot more wizard homicides by hungry naagloshii.
No way Seeker got close enough to even try to take a look.
Merlin was nearly freaking out when he saw and somewhat understood what our Kingdom represented. Lash, having the memories stretching at least as far as bronze age, at least as good of an understanding of human nature and society, and a better understanding what we actually represent and what our kingdom is, has more reason to worry about WC. If our kingdom starts to actively with Earth's magical practitioners, it represent grave, existential threat to White Council it has never faced and has no institutional way of handling - a viable, attractive alternative of how things (magic, society, law handling, etc) can be done. We are very nearly the canonical example of what an OCP is:
Yeah, I read that meeting with the Merlin very differently.

We are the "bristling lump of iron brass" from Merlin's perspective, and Lash, understanding or guessing how Merlin and others in the White Council, both senior members and not, might react to this, is hedging her bets. We are likely to get defectors. We are likely to get detractors.

And all of that before factoring in what Lash might understand of Molly the nascent Primordial.
Still a Hell-queen who has literally had her dominion for less than a week.
Me thinks you are getting well ahead of yourself.
The White Council is in no institutional jeopardy from Molly any time soon.

Interesting theory... That is a valid question to ask of Arianna's head just saying.
Hmm.
Keeping this in mind.

Ok. So,Red King, glutted on the blood of gods, Death (I remember now), Dragons, Mothers... If that's the kind of entities we are talking about, why does it matter that they have DPoE? They would steamrolls almost anyone who isn't us anyway.
Point of Order:
There's been no Death onscreen in the Dresden Files.
You are thinking of a different series.

I mentioned the Red King because he's the one person we get a clear citation for.
Others dont appear to throw their weight around as much; not that they dont have it, but they either control it better, or Dresden doesnt meet them onscreen
We are using very different definition of what physics is.
If you say so.
 
He also doesnt know how to circumvent techbane.
Everything else is subject to interpretation, but this is wrong. He learns how here. A city-wade bane removal requires us to raise god of Chicago, but for localized workings, he has the means to do it on his own.

Hard disagree on this.
Still much more plausible than Arianna knowing.

No way Seeker got close enough to even try to take a look.
He evidently did - he observed both us and Dreseen for months. Also, hedapable of borrowing senses of his minions.

Still a Hell-queen who has literally had her dominion for less than a week.
Me thinks you are getting well ahead of yourself.
The White Council is in no institutional jeopardy from Molly any time soon.
Not Molly. Her kingdom and what it represents. From an obligatory paranoia perspective, Molly's kingdom is Winter 2.0 Electric Boogaloo, but scarier, because swearing allegiance and/or immigrating to it looks attractive to an average modern urban dweller, and because dealing with it works by modern business rules, not fey rules.


Point of Order:
There's been no Death onscreen in the Dresden Files.
You are thinking of a different series.
No, I am calling a psychopomp Dresden encounters while being a ghost Death.
I mentioned the Red King because he's the one person we get a clear citation for.
Others dont appear to throw their weight around as much; not that they dont have it, but they either control it better, or Dresden doesnt meet them onscreen
And the only tier of beings we get even a glimpse of this potential ability for are Red King peers or betters.
 
Societal impact i meant.
Societal impact of the type you seem to be talking about was never on offer from anyone at any time.

You yourself have been talking about AP and reagent limits. They wouldn't really be limits at all if for say your vaccine example you could make thousands of them. In a month.

There aren't enough enchanters to do this at scale, so it's not like you can just teach more people to do it for you and achieve arbitrary magic items that way. You need whatever trick the FCF uses, and that is irrelevant to this.

We can have societal impact with the right tools in the right place, or by making really big projects that do something special, but in no case was this charm ever sold as Molly walking into her lab and walking out with pallets of magical cancer cures.

But it is. It very sharply limits the scale of impact an exalt can have. Yes, you can make a bolo and drive it through an enemy's castle. But you can't have anything that reaches beyond your immediate grasp, like, I don't know, an automated manufacturing system, or a public teleport network, because as soon as you are not there, it would stop working, and because it can't be replicated.

It's all about flashily killing individual monsters, not curing society's ills and restoring / improving / remaking reality.
Final comment about this. Exalted are about changing / affecting the world, not navel-gazing enlightenment. Super science is about affecting the world and creating the the tools to affect the world. Making the whole system so exalt cannot meaningfully affect large scale change by making tools seems entirely counter to what exalts are.
You're making a very myopic evaluation about what counts as large scale change here and asking for one charm to just hand it to you even when it was clearly never intended to in any version of the book.

Not for an Exalt apparently. Not at 1 dot.
Harvesting elder vampires in large quantities like that has its own consequences to throttle production.
 
Not Molly. Her kingdom and what it represents. From an obligatory paranoia perspective, Molly's kingdom is Winter 2.0 Electric Boogaloo, but scarier, because swearing allegiance and/or immigrating to it looks attractive to an average modern urban dweller, and because dealing with it works by modern business rules, not fey rules.
The idea that seemed to shake Langtry the most was Industrial Revolution: Magic Edition.
 
Societal impact of the type you seem to be talking about was never on offer from anyone at any time.

You yourself have been talking about AP and reagent limits. They wouldn't really be limits at all if for say your vaccine example you could make thousands of them. In a month.

There aren't enough enchanters to do this at scale, so it's not like you can just teach more people to do it for you and achieve arbitrary magic items that way. You need whatever trick the FCF uses, and that is irrelevant to this.
There is a distinct but important distinction between something being possible or practical. Societal impacts should be possible but require dedicated effort from us to do it. That is the ideal balance in my eyes.
We can have societal impact with the right tools in the right place, or by making really big projects that do something special, but in no case was this charm ever sold as Molly walking into her lab and walking out with pallets of magical cancer cures
That is not what i am arguing for. I don't need it to be easy but i do want it to be possible.
 
  1. I think that is a typo
  2. They need the merit if you want them to use magic as mortals do, basically you are building the 'organ' that does that into them
  3. You can, but you need someone who has that path up to the needed level or more involved in the crafting
  4. You would have to prepare most of it in the dragonstone and then trigger it at the location
How are, say, Porter's abilities to manipulate his environment, modeled? Bane seems to work under the "use mortal who has access to path as part of creation ritual". I guess we could have Harry involved in all the rituals, as a full wizard he probably works for most paths (even Hellfire). In general, I running into an issue of modeling a genius loki with ability to manipulate their environment using Arcana system.

EDIT: In regards to question 1 - typo in which direction? Either is possible in my opinion. It's quite clear that Holden made 1 dot list, then copy-pasted it and edited to make a 2 dot list, etc. So, he could have forgotten to edit it for 4 and 5 dots, meaning that they should have 21 point, or he could have typed 21 for some reason for 3 dot version.
 
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To weight on this:

I am pretty sure you are using *the current known laws of physics* as your definition, while Yog is using *the actual laws of physics* for his, the second may look like the first at first glance but is not, it doesn't care that things violate our current understanding, if something happens, then it follows the laws of physics, because they are just the range of things that can in their entirety.

There is no *paranormal* or *supernatural*, anything that happens is always something that follows the laws of physics, if they wouldn't follow them, they wouldn't happen anyway.
 
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