Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)

Someone has to break them of their "men are savages that can not be trusted with violence" thing, might as well start that early
 
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Wanting to reserve favor for the cultural stretch of the Summit is a valid concern. But I do think the favor loss is an acceptable price to pay here.
First of all, the shared fortresses already improve the cultural mingling we are seeking. This would allow us more leeway once the cultural votes arrive. We wouldn't feel so pressured to choose the heavy cultural choices that may upset the MoI, WP and PT; because we would already have a feet in with this vote.
Letting go of this opportunity to increase cultual exchange because we want to increase cultural exchange is putting the cart before the horse.
Ok, I think this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of our goals, and one that I get the impression is not uncommon

We do not really care about cultural exchange per se. We do not have any deep investment in it. There's a lot of people who seem to think foreign cultivation methods offer some kind of "one weird trick", but frankly the imperial system is a very good one. And trying to get clever with things is as likely to harm us as anything else.

What we want is to establish good relations. To develop positive relationships that we can use to maintain peace and grow the economy of the southern ES (and ourselves). Some degree of cultural exchange is helpful to that, but it hardly needs to be a major obsession. We just need to get on with them - not create some kind of multi-cultural melting pot or export anime. And getting that to work requires that we get things working here as well as possible, in a way that everyone is happy with.

This vote does not really help us with that - indeed quite the opposite. It's explicitly making some of the people we're wanting to avoid making unhappy less happy and giving us less room to play with in the cultural votes. The Theocracy is almost certainly going to want things that will make the MoI unhappy, and this will give us less room to negotiate that.

You point to the risk of outposts pointing fingers at each other, and yeah, that is one of the risks. But shared outposts similarly has the risk of much greater opportunity for conflicts and friction and political problems to arise with shared commands (especially given the very different gender profiles of our forces).
 
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[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:



[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
Ok, I think this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of our goals, and one that I get the impression is not uncommon

We do not really care about cultural exchange per se. We do not have any deep investment in it. There's a lot of people who seem to think foreign cultivation methods offer some kind of "one weird trick", but frankly the imperial system is a very good one. And trying to get clever with things is as likely to harm us as anything else.

What we want is to establish good relations. To develop positive relationships that we can use to maintain peace and grow the economy of the southern ES (and ourselves). Some degree of cultural exchange is helpful to that, but it hardly needs to be a major obsession. We just need to get on with them - not create some kind of multi-cultural melting pot or export anime. And getting that to work requires that we get things working here as well as possible, in a way that everyone is happy with.

This vote does not really help us with that - indeed quite the opposite. It's explicitly making some of the people we're wanting to avoid making unhappy less happy and giving us less room to play with in the cultural votes. The Theocracy is almost certainly going to want things that will make the MoI unhappy, and this will give us less room to negotiate that.

You point to the risk of outposts pointing fingers at each other, and yeah, that is one of the risks. But shared outposts similarly has the risk of much greater opportunity for conflicts and friction and political problems to arise with shared commands (especially given the very different gender profiles of our forces).

I do not care about cultural exchange here.
What I do care about, is that we already have one high tier foe using a lot of resources trying to sink this whole initiative. Moreover, there are more factions, in the Empire, in the White Sky and outside of both, who disagree hard enough to try the same in the future.

By keeping the outposts separate, it would be pretty easy for such factions to stage false flag operations, because even neighboring outposts would hardly know each other.

Attack a judge who is on the road due to rotations a time or two and the whole project just sinks, or is at least a nightmare to keep afloat.

Shared outposts explicitly, as it is stated right in the option, improve road defense and response times to any and all attacks. And a response group containing both, imperial and white sky cultivators, would be far harder to fool by anyone trying to pretend to be either.

Going for more cooperation now is preventing potential huge problems later.
The whole an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is valid here as well.
 
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[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)
 
By keeping the outposts separate, it would be pretty easy for such factions to stage false flag operations, because even neighboring outposts would hardly know each other.

Attack a judge who is on the road due to rotations a time or two and the whole project just sinks, or is at least a nightmare to keep afloat.

Shared outposts explicitly, as it is stated right in the option, improve road defense and response times to any and all attacks. And a response group containing both, imperial and white sky cultivators, would be far harder to fool by anyone trying to pretend to be either.
If you're worried about things like assassinations, then, well, there's a lot of wilderness and ample opportunity to do so regardless of how the outposts are organised. And if you're worried about diplomatic incidents then having people in close contact all the time just offers more opportunities to create such. It really isn't that straightforward imo.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Sep 27, 2023 at 4:50 AM, finished with 131 posts and 70 votes.
 
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
Ok, I think this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of our goals, and one that I get the impression is not uncommon

We do not really care about cultural exchange per se. We do not have any deep investment in it. There's a lot of people who seem to think foreign cultivation methods offer some kind of "one weird trick", but frankly the imperial system is a very good one. And trying to get clever with things is as likely to harm us as anything else.

What we want is to establish good relations. To develop positive relationships that we can use to maintain peace and grow the economy of the southern ES (and ourselves). Some degree of cultural exchange is helpful to that, but it hardly needs to be a major obsession. We just need to get on with them - not create some kind of multi-cultural melting pot or export anime. And getting that to work requires that we get things working here as well as possible, in a way that everyone is happy with.

This vote does not really help us with that - indeed quite the opposite. It's explicitly making some of the people we're wanting to avoid making unhappy less happy and giving us less room to play with in the cultural votes. The Theocracy is almost certainly going to want things that will make the MoI unhappy, and this will give us less room to negotiate that.

You point to the risk of outposts pointing fingers at each other, and yeah, that is one of the risks. But shared outposts similarly has the risk of much greater opportunity for conflicts and friction and political problems to arise with shared commands (especially given the very different gender profiles of our forces).

It's true that cultural exchange itself isn't our main objective, perse. What we want is to establish friendly, stable relations between the two nations as equals. Close and continued contact is essential for both parties to start seeing each other as people. That's the logic behind the shared patrols of the Summit, increasing the number of translators in the construction crews and so on.
This vote simply follows through on the policy of searching for mutual understanding we have being pursuing. The difference is that we'll be applying them to the extended joint efforts between ES and WS, not only to this one event.

But that doesn't change the fact that cultural exchange is important, and many voters are going to want to push for it once the cultural section comes around.
Securing some degree of cultural mingling now we'll make it easier to stave off the most extreme options that would truly piss off the MoI or even the WP.
Because cultural exchange is an important objective. So missing this chance will mean we'll feel more pressed to choose more controversial options in the future in order to achieve the level of contact we are aiming for.

In any case, as I said, cultural mingling is just a nice add-on of the shared fortresses. The improved security of the roads is the real prize here and we have WoG that the shared fortresses achive just that. I can't stress enough how beneficial for ES-WS relations it would be to reduce the number of attacks on supply caravans, patrols and dignataries like the judges.
If the ES nobility considers that continued contact with the WS is too costly and risky, it will be much harder to secure further investement in infraestructure and expanding systems like the experimental terrains in the Jing river headwaters.

Shared bases helps enormously with all our main objectives, at the cost of leaving PT as they were before the limited military vote and the WS as if we hadn't gotten Jaromilla bonus roll (or not even that if we succeed on the 70% roll). That's hardly going to doom the cultural section of the Summit, so it's worth the price.
 
[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)
 
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
If you're worried about things like assassinations, then, well, there's a lot of wilderness and ample opportunity to do so regardless of how the outposts are organised. And if you're worried about diplomatic incidents then having people in close contact all the time just offers more opportunities to create such. It really isn't that straightforward imo.
Not only assasinations, but provocations and false flag operations, as well as trade raids and general raiding.
It is far, far easier to commit such things if the two military forces tasked with preventing such not only do not work together, but actually barely know each other, as stated in the separate outposts option with "minimal contact".

On the other side the shared outposts offer not only familiarity between the two forces and joined responses, thus making any false flag operations exponentially more difficult, since they would have to fool people intimately aware of how imperial/white sky forces look and operate, but it outright states in the option that it improves road defenses and response times. It will also always offer witnesses from both imperial side as well as white sky side, making deciding any and all disputes by the judges in the future this much easier.

I am honestly convinced that this option is vital in preventing a slew of future problems and is one of the very important ones to go for to achieve long term success.
 
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[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)

I really would like safer roads, but I think pushing here is an overextension. We've got some ugly votes coming up, more room to work with means we can be greedier there. If road security is a major issue, it's gonna become apparent in due time and can be addressed then. For right now, there's no way that taking it now doesn't require us to compromise on other stuff later, and pushing here successfully won't have positive impacts for a while yet. Even if it's good in a vacuum, it doesn't snowball our position at all, it's just a win-more option when we should be looking for "win at all" options.
 
[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)
 
[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:



[X] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
But you're voting to increase the road's security. :p
 
Road security is no joke. And the risk is not just from random bandits/nomads either. The Bai have a dedicated clan (Green Asp) for maintaining their road security. If one of the oldest and scariest provinces need that much dedicated manpower to maintain security, we should aim for as much as we can get.
 
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[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)
 
A minor thing I noticed in the update, Xia Ren may have had to adjust her opinion once again.

"That these foreigners already make demands shows they lack some understanding of their position," General Xia said. "They try to puff themselves up. That creature outside, the tree. …"
The women met her eye. "Security has been satisfactory. However, if you're… weeping sentinel is to remain, we will place a matching cultivator on a permanent basis."
Either the General is politely diplomatic here (Yea lol) … or She has had enough contact with them to acknowledge there existence outside of a 'creature that may be dangerous to her people'.

Plus, the fact that she does not think her, or the WP, presents to be required for the security of the ES is basically her acknowledging that the likelihood of true military escalation with the WS are minimal if the Summit is a success.
 
[ ] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)

This is a pretty good system. Alternating the outposts reinforces the neutral/unclaimed status of the land in question, preventing outposts from acting as de facto border extensions. Mutual rest access for patrols is also nice, especially with how important hospitality is in Polar Nations culture. Breaking bread might not be a monumental step, but it's definitely not nothing. I'd expect patrols to come up with their own shared traditions/jokes in not too long, since that's just how humans do.

Different topic, but this is all gonna be pretty pricey, which makes it a good opportunity for Dzintara to bring up those tariffs she's been wanting. Having a tariff nominally represent a use-fee for maintenance of the road and garisons/patrols is rhetorically sound, and we can acquiesce to her protectionism pretty easily.


[ ] Suggest in the interest of authority and further warding against tribal violence that outposts in the unclaimed section be fully shared structures, staffed by personnel from both nations. (-1 WP favorability, -1 PT Favorability. Improved road defenses and further mingling and cultural contact. Better response time to incursions against the road.)
I think a first thing it's important to approach clearly is that the security benefits are solely restricted to the road itself, here. It's not like there's no potential for political spillover with the road, there's risks associated with every inch of our projects here, but crucially the improved defense and responsiveness to security threats applies only to the one corridor of transit, in the west. We also need to ask- is the road really a priority for us and our goals?

Honestly, I'd say no. The road's going to be low-traffic for probably decades and likely to be one of the riskier routes available to people from either nation, regardless of what we invest in its security. Those who attempt it should be doing so with the understanding of the relative danger; I don't anticipate ruinous tension from losses experienced on the route, as callous as that is to say. That said, greater success with the road is obviously ideal... but that only remains true when it's acting to cement our gains, not if it's supplanting something, because at the end of the day it is a periphery matter.

Let's look at favorability. This option dings us with the White Plumes, with a chance of mitigation, and the Polar Theocracy, with no chance of mitigation. The latter is probably owed to the Polar Nation's ironclad taboo against male violence, when a majority of Emerald Seas' soldiery is made up of men who do violence.

The White Plumes don't worry me either way, since they should have limited stakes in cultural talks. The Polar Theocracy, however, is a big concern. We currently have a favorability of 3 with them. By itself that isn't too bad, but they don't exist in a vacuum. The MoI has a favorability of 2 and a tendency to hyper-sensitivity, threatening to drop by 2 at a time. PT and MoI priorities are highly likely to come into conflict with one another, so having a bigger margin to play with on the PT side could end up being make-or-break with keeping the MoI satisfied without pushing the PT into negatives either.

For example, the Polar Theocracy is likely to push for something like the right to build temples to their gods in the embassy town, maybe on a sliding scale. This is... fundamentally not unreasonable, especially considering that so many of their staff like judges, formation/geomancy experts, security, road wardens, etc. are basically members of priesthoods or religious orders. But the MoI is going to hate it, even on the minimal level. There's definitely going to be other issues.

In the end, we're basically guaranteed to give both the MoI and the PT less then they want, and to do that and succeed at the summit as a whole requires enough of a margin in favorability between the two of them that we can thread the needle of nobody flipping the board and storming off. Cultural issues are of extreme important to the Polar Theocracy, and we have our own hard-to-please domestic factions that aren't going to be agreeable with PT interests. Our margin with them is vital.

This road option narrows our margin, unavoidably. If it was a chance, maybe we could go for it. But it's a guaranteed hit, right before the section of the talks with probably the most importance to them. Maybe more importantly, we can afford to pass on this option. The road is not vital to the summit's success, and the other option is just fine.

This simply doesn't strike me as the place to invest a sharply limited resource we know for a fact we're going to want as much as possible of in the next thing we're doing.

[X] Suggest alternating road outposts along the unclaimed length. But allow basing for patrols at each other's outposts, for rest and recuperation. (Minimal contact, no favorability cost, due to successes thus far.)
 
Let's look at favorability. ...snip...

This simply doesn't strike me as the place to invest a sharply limited resource we know for a fact we're going to want as much as possible of in the next thing we're doing.
You're arguing that we shouldn't spend favor on cultural mingling, so we can save it for cultural mingling.
Who would you rather have the most understanding of cultural nuance? The cops/first responders, or the tenured collage professor?
The entire initial point of this meeting was to negotiate a peaceful border, and reduce hostilities.
Everything else is just to have both sides invested enough to keep it that way.
 
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You're arguing that we shouldn't spend favor on cultural mingling, so we can save it for cultural mingling.
Who would you rather have the most understanding of cultural nuance? The cops/first responders, or the tenured collage professor?
No, that's a weird framing of what I'm saying.

I'm saying we shouldn't spend favor on a stretch goal that doesn't directly implicate the success or failure of the summit, so we can save it for navigating contentious matters that could decide the success or failure of the summit. Where failure could undermine operation of the road anyway, or even the agreements concerning how they it ought to be managed.

We're not in the clear yet on basic success. Spending Polar Theocracy favorability here for sure 100% at least makes the next arc tighter. The next arc, where we discuss and negotiate on cultural issues, could jeopardize the summit as a whole. The current vote can't. Therefore, it's sensible to preserve our favorability, and therefore leeway, for the higher risk negotiation topic.

The raw volume of cultural exchange, or whatever, isn't really the point. The point is there's still room for this to fall apart, and our highest priority is stopping that. Taking the risk right now cannot help stop that, and it unavoidably depletes our resource pool for stopping it when, if, it matters.

Going the extra mile on the road(heh) isn't vital, and we can afford to pass on it in order to have a better hedge for what's coming.
 
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