- Location
- Florida
I'm here to make a fun spell aesthetic, not doom post about theoretical consequences decades into the future. That said, Cat Knight is clearly the superior option.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like the spell is going to be defined by its miscasts (Which will not even always end up teamkilling). That just doesn't seem born out by the reality of the setting to me. No I don't think the spell is going cause the legend become associated with randomly killing people, if your position is that you never want it to ever kill a friendly target, that's a defensible position. But the idea that times it goes wrong is going to be the narrative focus that defines it doesn't hold up to me. Wizards are sometimes literally possessed by daemons when they miscast for example, they still managed to win over the population of Altdorf.
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- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
I'm not at all arguing that it will define the spell? I'm saying I don't want the violence of the night rider to be represented in an agent that's mistakable as something people can be fully at ease with. You're the one who brought up how Mathilde was apparently so unstable during the attack on the castle she was liable to kill allies for disagreeing, I was responding to you making it all about Mathilde's legend when I didn't want the legend to be involved at all.
I misunderstood what you were getting at then, sorry about that.
[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual
Weaponizing your own legend is cool, and the Dammerlichreiter is already a figure of hushed terror as much as awe, as is the intention of the Grey Order. It works.
As for the Seviroscope, this comes with the bonus of maybe accidentally also inventing photography at the same time, which would be useful in its own right.
[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual
Weaponizing your own legend is cool, and the Dammerlichreiter is already a figure of hushed terror as much as awe, as is the intention of the Grey Order. It works.
As for the Seviroscope, this comes with the bonus of maybe accidentally also inventing photography at the same time, which would be useful in its own right.
- Location
- Oklahoma
I'd just like to note that the Eye of Gazul is the exact opposite of indiscriminate.
Mathilde (and, by implication, Gazul himself) literally look at every individual target of the spell and decide whether or not they're worthy of burning.
[X] [RIDER] Mounted Wraiths
- Location
- USA
You're very passionate about this subject and I respect you and your opinion. I like your idea of a modified Dread Knight spell to help facilitate certain aspects.
Now a bit of theory crafting on my part. If the average peasant that knows/fears the Dämmerlichtreiter believe it is a creature of perfect moral judgement. Than anytime it seemingly kills "innocent soldiers", that peasant will believe that the Dämmerlichtreiter knew better since it would only attack those colluding with the Undead.
However instead of a perfect judge the peasantry believe the Dämmerlichtreiter is the dreadful and merciless enforcer of the Van Hal family or the Stirland Count. Than any mistaken killing done to soldiers, allies or innocent would, at worse be seen as the Count being corrupt and forcing the Rider of Dusk to enact their wicked will. Or at best be seen as the Hunter-Count moping up traitors. Obviously the middle ground of these two "extremes" is the Dämmerlichtreiter being seeing less like Batman and more like the official Executioner.
This is all assuming we don't modify the spell further in someway that results in the spell having a safety feature that causes it to act in a particular way if it miscasts before teaching it to others. Like a fault in a design that is purposely created, so if a critical failure did occur the system/structure/device failed in such a way to both minimize damage and expedite repair.
Very basic example cutting a tree in such a way you control where it will fall. Some other examples might be…a surge protector in a device or an Autopilot on a drone. Sorry I'm blanking at the moment.
Was that the case? It's been so long…I remember interpreting it as just killing everything the shadow is cast on. I always figured Dwarfs would be an exception obviously but humans? Halflings? I didn't think so. But than again I'm not sure how involved Gazul is in that whole thing.
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It was yeah, IIRC a couple of vultures were actually spared, and Mathilde was actually a bit fucked up by the subjective experience of clicking YES, 600,000 times, but walked it off cause that's how she rolls.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The spell on which it's based, Burning Shadows, carries its own IFF:
When the Sword of Gazul is wielded by a Grey Wizard, they do specific target selection (like we saw with Mathilde, though part of that experience was undoubtedly a result of Gazul's involvement). We also have a number of command crystals that contain the metaphysical signature for various forms of potential enemies that might besiege K8P, allowing someone who isn't a Grey Wizard to use it against a specific kind of target (like Kazador in its first test-fire). Notably, there are no command crystals for human or dwarf or halfling or even elf: it's impossible for the Sword to harm those unless a Grey Wizard deliberately uses it against them, and the security of "a literal god has His eye on this and will probably get mad if you misuse it" is pretty good.
- Location
- Australia
Well, she cast Marsh Lights and went to bed, so not really walked it off.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Yep-
The one in the firing chair looks at every individual target and decides whether or not it burns.
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The nap was actually before Birdmuncha arrived, after she fired the Eye, she hopped into a copter and took part in the "Boil the dirt" strategy session. Then went downstairs to patrol for tunnelers and scared off Birdmuncha.
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[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
i like the idea of murderkitties. Plus, cats are apparently good against singular targets and there's a small part of me imagining Zacharias/Nagash/Malekith having to deal with sudden cat to the face while Mathilde sneaks up on them to stab them with her magic sword and finding it absolutely hilarious.
i like the idea of murderkitties. Plus, cats are apparently good against singular targets and there's a small part of me imagining Zacharias/Nagash/Malekith having to deal with sudden cat to the face while Mathilde sneaks up on them to stab them with her magic sword and finding it absolutely hilarious.
'Say Good Knight'
'The End is Knight'
'Knight unlimited uses for this spell'
[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
Funny, I think the post that resulted in "Mathilde on a Shadowsteed" option being added actually asked for the Dämmerlichtreiter in the first place. Feels like some drama could have been avoided. Oh well, not blaming anyone, it was all in a good fun in the end.
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire (Mathilde's Heraldry)
I still think there's a great opportunity being missed in not having a knight with Mathilde's heraldry being the shell, mount notwithstanding, but as long as there's something referencing her, I am fine with it.
Funny, I think the post that resulted in "Mathilde on a Shadowsteed" option being added actually asked for the Dämmerlichtreiter in the first place. Feels like some drama could have been avoided. Oh well, not blaming anyone, it was all in a good fun in the end.
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire (Mathilde's Heraldry)
I still think there's a great opportunity being missed in not having a knight with Mathilde's heraldry being the shell, mount notwithstanding, but as long as there's something referencing her, I am fine with it.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Re: the Dämmerlichtreiter reputation and those who started carving the emblematic wooden riders.
It started for 'riding the coming of night across Stirland, bringing ruin to the enemies of the Hunter Count'. So I think Count Stolpe, the Stirland League.
So… a weapon of The Man.
Then came the Purge, melting the Singing King, and taking thorough vengeance for Abel. Probably here it adds the 'Scourge of the Undead, Hammer of Sylvania' aspect from the witnessing soldiers. And the palling around with Asarnil may add some exotic shine.
The idol carving started in the Hunters Hills, which were being sold off to former Stirland crossbowmen returning with their silver from Belegar's Expedition. Soldiers who had witnessed or heard stories of how when you wanted a fort, mountain or citadel to fall, the best thing you can do is send the Dämmerlichtreiter in ahead, solo.
Sometimes, the defenders even slaughter themselves rather than face her wrath. It's hard to say how the common solider took the Waaagh popping and Orcs stopping fighting outside the Citadel, but I could see many Stirlanders, in absence of any means to actually know, ascribing it to the familiar, growing legend. So as with the Singing King, she brought her wrath to a terrible enemy, and saved the common soldier.
Those are the tales that built the legend of the Dämmerlichtreiter from Instrument of Hunter Count wrath to Protector of the common folk (I.e. me, the poor solider assaulting that now-weakened position). Also of Countesses with Necrach nuisances.
That's my read anyway. So to me it seems the martial aspects have become foremost- this is someone you want at your side when facing enemies beyond the human.
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[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
[X] [RIDER] Misty Wraith on top of a Giant Wolf
[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Auditory
I'll take the Dämmerlichtreiter over a big cat since at least the Dämmerlichtreiter can charge through massed infantry, an ability Mathilde lacks (she has to chop them down a few at a time). Still prefer a wolf rider to help hold down big gits we can't use our sword style on in order to just repeatedly wallop them while the rider also repeatedly stabs the big gribbly, but anything is better than the apparition specialization Mathilde is already specialized in.
[X] [RIDER] Misty Wraith on top of a Giant Wolf
[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Auditory
I'll take the Dämmerlichtreiter over a big cat since at least the Dämmerlichtreiter can charge through massed infantry, an ability Mathilde lacks (she has to chop them down a few at a time). Still prefer a wolf rider to help hold down big gits we can't use our sword style on in order to just repeatedly wallop them while the rider also repeatedly stabs the big gribbly, but anything is better than the apparition specialization Mathilde is already specialized in.
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire (Mathilde's Heraldry)
-[X] Conventional Empire (Mathilde's Heraldry)
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The more I think about The Dämmerlichtreiter aesthetic, the more I like it, and I am also starting to like the choice of mount as well for practical reasons and not just aesthetics.
According to recent Boney posts, "a horse is good for bulldozing through a group of people", a Demigryph "is good for absolutely ruining one person at a time", and wolves are good at "single-target pursuit", with a group of wolves also being "a really good counter for big monsters" because they can skirmish and perform leaping attacks.
I think any of the options are also pretty good as a tanky distraction, but since we already have Rite of Way, I think the horse mount synergizes really well with Mathilde leading a surprise cavalry charge, and dropping several horse mounted knights that can only be harmed with magical weapons at the front of the charge to plow through and trample the defenders. To me this seems like a good niche for a battle magic spell.
The closest spell the Grey Order has otherwise is probably Pit of Shades, which is much more risky to use Danger Close (near allies) and is very likely to be more difficult to cast. While Pit of Shades is likely more lethal, I think the two spells have distinct enough use cases that they both make sense. Meanwhile I can think of two options for single target damage against large targets. One would be to capture some Darkhounds and bind them in the form of Great Cats. While the cats would be smaller than a Rider in Red, they would still be very dangerous and very capable of harassing large targets. The main problems I can see are that we likely have a limit on how many apparitions we can have, where we would likely rather just have more Dämmerlichtreiter's, as well as the difficulty and risk in making a second apparition spell (though somewhat mitigated by having Gehenna's notes). The obvious second option is The Penumbral Pendulum, which seems perfect against single large targets (is there a better option from any of the lores?). While I think it would be cool to learn The Penumbral Pendulum, anti single large target may just be a niche that Mathilde can leave to battle wizards.
According to recent Boney posts, "a horse is good for bulldozing through a group of people", a Demigryph "is good for absolutely ruining one person at a time", and wolves are good at "single-target pursuit", with a group of wolves also being "a really good counter for big monsters" because they can skirmish and perform leaping attacks.
I think any of the options are also pretty good as a tanky distraction, but since we already have Rite of Way, I think the horse mount synergizes really well with Mathilde leading a surprise cavalry charge, and dropping several horse mounted knights that can only be harmed with magical weapons at the front of the charge to plow through and trample the defenders. To me this seems like a good niche for a battle magic spell.
The closest spell the Grey Order has otherwise is probably Pit of Shades, which is much more risky to use Danger Close (near allies) and is very likely to be more difficult to cast. While Pit of Shades is likely more lethal, I think the two spells have distinct enough use cases that they both make sense. Meanwhile I can think of two options for single target damage against large targets. One would be to capture some Darkhounds and bind them in the form of Great Cats. While the cats would be smaller than a Rider in Red, they would still be very dangerous and very capable of harassing large targets. The main problems I can see are that we likely have a limit on how many apparitions we can have, where we would likely rather just have more Dämmerlichtreiter's, as well as the difficulty and risk in making a second apparition spell (though somewhat mitigated by having Gehenna's notes). The obvious second option is The Penumbral Pendulum, which seems perfect against single large targets (is there a better option from any of the lores?). While I think it would be cool to learn The Penumbral Pendulum, anti single large target may just be a niche that Mathilde can leave to battle wizards.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Shame we probably shouldn't chain battle magics Rite of Way into Apparitions for a 'Dammerlichtreiter out of the fog' situation.
That way lies miscasts.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Depends on how difficult the Rider spell winds up being- Rite of Way is effectively Fiendishly Complex for Mathilde, so there's no risk of miscast there in most situations.
I'm not sure how useful Rite of Way would be to the Riders, though, given that they're not entirely physical to begin with.
- Location
- Russia
[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
I'm with Andres here, no desire whatsoever to attach our legend to the spell that will certainly kill Empire troops at some point, be it the result of miscast or an enemy learning it. I'm not saying that it will happen often or even soon, but it will happen.
I'm with Andres here, no desire whatsoever to attach our legend to the spell that will certainly kill Empire troops at some point, be it the result of miscast or an enemy learning it. I'm not saying that it will happen often or even soon, but it will happen.